Indian Special Forces (archived)

[ArgonPrime]

Marginal advantage.

Flexibility in switching force level across sectors if you have reserves.

Flexibility in changing momentum of attack.

Flexibility in having resources to 'plug' gaps.

Just to name a few.

Well, let's agree to disagree.

 

[Hellfire]

Well, let's agree to disagree.

For interim. For if the tanks are derelicts, you can as well dump your IBGs, Cold Starts, et al.

 

[Hellfire]

BAT Actions Are Always there PARA SF Will get
there Experience in Cross Border killing real enemy not Pawns

BAT actions were undertaken by unit level Commando Platoon (renamed ghatak) Thanks to the advent of SF and 'quick kill' cravings, now all the Ghataks do are twiddle their thumbs or undertake Cordon & Search Operations which normal infantry company would undertake.

 

[Lupus]

i am asking about basics

and

russian spetsnaz example

Gotcha. Sir, There have been endless discussions here on this subject and it has been more or less concluded that our SF/SOFs are under utilized. But that's where we have all been stuck for some time now, so please allow me this opportunity to ask you something: Let's assume for a moment that PM/NSA/CDS tomorrow recognise this issue and agree to meet all of our special operations community's reasonable demands regarding revamping the organizational structure, buying them world class toys et al...and ask our SFs to come up with what they consider are the suitable roles for them then what do YOU think should be their answer ? Please list out what you consider to be most suitable taskings for them considering our Indian conditions

( If anyone else too wants to answer this question...pls don't be shy...aapka hi forum hai! )

PS. I want as many people as possible to answer this question.

 

[samsaptaka]

Gotcha. Sir, There have been endless discussions here on this subject and it has been more or less concluded that our SF/SOFs are under utilized. But that's where we have all been stuck for some time now, so please allow me this opportunity to ask you something: Let's assume for a moment that PM/NSA/CDS tomorrow recognise this issue and agree to meet all of our special operations community's reasonable demands regarding revamping the organizational structure, buying them world class toys et al...and ask our SFs to come up with what they consider are the suitable roles for them then what do YOU think should be their answer ? Please list out what you consider to be most suitable taskings for them considering our Indian conditions

( If anyone else too wants to answer this question...pls don't be shy...aapka hi forum hai! )

PS. I want as many people as possible to answer this question.

1. Take out Hafiz Saeed
2. Take out Da'wood
3. Infiltrate LeT HQ and plant bombs
4. Get back Kulbhushan Jadav
5. Afghanistan ops to ensure perpetrators of embassy's nd Gurudwara attacks are taken out
etc..etc..

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

NSG
SIG MPX

 

[Knowitall]

i mean now that @Bhadra mentions it it does make sense. Our generals don't use SF the way we want them to because we simply don't do such operations.

I read an article some time back by an ex Indian SF officer where he explained that unlike the west which regularly deploys it's SF units globally or even the Chinese who he said deploy their SF team in areas of interest and places where they are undertaking infrastructure projects compared to that we barely even deploy our units to countries that border us.

i mean our political circles barely think of global ambitions we would first and foremost require a change of mindset in the political circles.

but at least we should have regional aspirations and train a team under RA&W or SF a sort of kill team to target HVT we really need to start somewhere.

 

[Ujjain]

i mean now that @Bhadra mentions it it does make sense. Our generals don't use SF the way we want them to because we simply don't do such operations.

I read an article some time back by an ex Indian SF officer where he explained that unlike the west which regularly deploys it's SF units globally or even the Chinese who he said deploy their SF team in areas of interest and places where they are undertaking infrastructure projects compared to that we barely even deploy our units to countries that border us.

i mean our political circles barely think of global ambitions we would first and foremost require a change of mindset in the political circles.

but at least we should have regional aspirations and train a team under RA&W or SF a sort of kill team to target HVT we really need to start somewhere.

Our country do not have a national security doctrine. A doctrine which acts as a guide to our armed forces of their roles is sorely needed, once we have a clearly defined doctrine then we can start to look at our interests regionally and perhaps even globally, and to secure those interest we can project our instruments of national power in ways best suited to us, only then we can expect any change in deployment of our forces. The problem of under utilisation not only lies with special forces but to every other arm of our services. Once our political leadership gives a directive in form of a doctrine which is a part of our national vision and policy, then expect something. Till then special forces will keep themselves busy with Pakistan's minions.

 

[Mikesingh]

Gotcha. Sir, There have been endless discussions here on this subject and it has been more or less concluded that our SF/SOFs are under utilized. But that's where we have all been stuck for some time now, so please allow me this opportunity to ask you something: Let's assume for a moment that PM/NSA/CDS tomorrow recognise this issue and agree to meet all of our special operations community's reasonable demands regarding revamping the organizational structure, buying them world class toys et al...and ask our SFs to come up with what they consider are the suitable roles for them then what do YOU think should be their answer ? Please list out what you consider to be most suitable taskings for them considering our Indian conditions

( If anyone else too wants to answer this question...pls don't be shy...aapka hi forum hai! )

PS. I want as many people as possible to answer this question.

Ok, here's what I dug out in my notes written a few years ago. I'm reproducing them so nothing is left out.

The roles of SF in counterterrorism (CT) and counterinsurgency (COIN) have received more attention than other SF roles over the last couple of decades. (There were no SF operating in the Valley proper in the early 90s). Over this period, the focus on CT and COIN has resulted in changes: internally, other skills in the SF toolkit (such as unconventional warfare) have atrophied, with the exception of a few (that included the surgical strike etc), while policy makers and planners have become less familiar with those other skills, which has likely contributed to the observation that joint concepts have not appropriately incorporated the full spectrum of SF capabilities.

Here are the roles and capabilities of the SF in tabulated form for ease of understanding.

I hope that answers you question!

 

[Bhadra]

Para (Special Forces): Best of the Best in the Indian Army | BLITZKRIEG with Major Gaurav Arya

I do not know how I missed it on DFI but watched it somewhere else.

A very good presentation except for a few things not considered by major Sahed in the correct context.

First Thing First _ Either our SF are part of and under Army (Armed Forces) or they are not. There is no ify ify about it. Till the time they are part of the Army and under Army - they are some commanders resources and it is his responsibility to educate himself as also educate the SF about their role and tasks. There must be a correct philosophy and a doctrine to employ them.
One can not claim to be remaining in Army, not working for Army Commanders and be free to do whatever they wish. That can not be a correct and acceptable thing.

Second - Not being part of Infantry ... There are a lot of factors that can influence that decision. In my understanding it would be mainly the problems of affiliation, recruitment / secondment, Cadre management and promotion prospects of SF officers. If our SF are not infantry why should Infantry units give them soldiers and officers as Infantry themselve need good soldiers and officers. Why should Infantry take back those who get unfit if there is no affiliation anf sense of belonging. Why should they share Infantry goodies in that case?? Within Infantry and operational sphere they have been given sufficient space and freedom. With SF command in the offeing the other aspects would also undergo a sea change.

The Present Utilisation of SF in insurgency and anti terrorist operations is absolutely correct and required to train our SF in live situations. Otherwise many SF in the world do not get to fire under any real threat and live situation. I am sure our commanders do not want SF to become another NSG cooling their bumps in Delhi and Metros. Though the soldiers who are deputed to NSG are experienced lots having contributed their bits in all kinds of operations, still as a unit it is as good as inactive .

Major Sahab should have thought over those issues though I fully support and second his exuberance and love for our SF.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Gotcha. Sir, There have been endless discussions here on this subject and it has been more or less concluded that our SF/SOFs are under utilized. But that's where we have all been stuck for some time now, so please allow me this opportunity to ask you something: Let's assume for a moment that PM/NSA/CDS tomorrow recognise this issue and agree to meet all of our special operations community's reasonable demands regarding revamping the organizational structure, buying them world class toys et al...and ask our SFs to come up with what they consider are the suitable roles for them then what do YOU think should be their answer ? Please list out what you consider to be most suitable taskings for them considering our Indian conditions

( If anyone else too wants to answer this question...pls don't be shy...aapka hi forum hai! )

PS. I want as many people as possible to answer this question.

My plans are different.

JSOC...NSG..1st,9th,10th and 21 Para(and one unit as reserve on rotation)..Marcos and Garuds..100 each.

Special airborne brigade...rest of the para SF and some marcos and Garuds on deputation to the para units.

Airborne brigade...para regtts..and other airborne branches.

Ghatak brigade...special training school to be made for ghataks who should be permanent and only once they leave which can be an age limit should new guys be inducted.tis ghatak brigade to send troops to units in need on the loc for deployment.

All units to contribute and the best to be taken and equipped.I suggest the strenth to be a brigade strong only ie 3000 men approx.

Cobra and other commando units to send commandos on deputation.

 

[Bhadra]

Our country do not have a national security doctrine. A doctrine which acts as a guide to our armed forces of their roles is sorely needed, once we have a clearly defined doctrine then we can start to look at our interests regionally and perhaps even globally, and to secure those interest we can project our instruments of national power in ways best suited to us, only then we can expect any change in deployment of our forces. The problem of under utilisation not only lies with special forces but to every other arm of our services. Once our political leadership gives a directive in form of a doctrine which is a part of our national vision and policy, then expect something. Till then special forces will keep themselves busy with Pakistan's minions.

It is good that some of you guys are nearing the gray and problem ares of India's Security management issues at the level of higher directions of war or to put in military Jargons - at operational and Strategic levels. SF guys demand that they are meant to perform strategic tasks. That is absolutely agreed to .

However, before that it must be clear who is managing our operational and strategic level issues at national level? Who is the best to employ the SF for military and non military purposes. And if at all our SF are geared for, trained and tuned for non military strategic tasks? Are our intelligence agencies structured and trained and cultured to employ military SFs. Can military SF be best utilised under dual or sometimes under triple control.

I shall give an example. Say the command of SFs is given to R&AW. Are they trained in, capable of and experienced enough to employ military SFs? That means creating command structures, infrastructure, facilities, budgeting etc for that force to begin with. Then What will happen to MEA's long legs and interests in all foreign matters. Then what about NSA, NIA, DIA and the Armed Forces themselves who need to employ SFs.

There is NSG where Army SF are contributed in a major way. However, Army's experience with NSG has not been that good and encouraging to say the least.

If the present ten battalions of SF are given to someone else, that means Army will have to raise and train SF for their military tasks and roles.. In that case what have we achieved?

Some very serious answer are required to be answered and settled at national security structure levels before any such move is contemplated.

 

[Bhadra]

Ok, here's what I dug out in my notes written a few years ago. I'm reproducing them so nothing is left out.

The roles of SF in counterterrorism (CT) and counterinsurgency (COIN) have received more attention than other SF roles over the last couple of decades. (There were no SF operating in the Valley proper in the early 90s). Over this period, the focus on CT and COIN has resulted in changes: internally, other skills in the SF toolkit (such as unconventional warfare) have atrophied, with the exception of a few (that included the surgical strike etc), while policy makers and planners have become less familiar with those other skills, which has likely contributed to the observation that joint concepts have not appropriately incorporated the full spectrum of SF capabilities.

Here are the roles and capabilities of the SF in tabulated form for ease of understanding.

View attachment 46165

I hope that answers you question!

Forget about first four tasks in the list. I only hope you know what does it involve? In India the target areas is the kingdom of someone else and they guard that area very jealously as their turf (in other words they draw a lot of money for that) . The entire Kargil Committee headed by a giant like K Subramaniam could not fix the issue of "Intelligence Failures".
Any thing across the IB and LC is not in the mandate of the Army or MoD , so forget about it.

Wait for another intelligence failure.

 

[WARREN SS]

It is good that some of you guys are nearing the gray and problem ares of India's Security management issues at the level of higher directions of war or to put in military Jargons - at operational and Strategic levels. SF guys demand that they are meant to perform strategic tasks. That is absolutely agreed to .

However, before that it must be clear who is managing our operational and strategic level issues at national level? Who is the best to employ the SF for military and non military purposes. And if at all our SF are geared for, trained and tuned for non military strategic tasks? Are our intelligence agencies structured and trained and cultured to employ military SFs. Can military SF be best utilised under dual or sometimes under triple control.

I shall give an example. Say the command of SFs is given to R&AW. Are they trained in, capable of and experienced enough to employ military SFs? That means creating command structures, infrastructure, facilities, budgeting etc for that force to begin with. Then What will happen to MEA's long legs and interests in all foreign matters. Then what about NSA, NIA, DIA and the Armed Forces themselves who need to employ SFs.

There is NSG where Army SF are contributed in a major way. However, Army's experience with NSG has not been that good and encouraging to say the least.

If the present ten battalions of SF are given to someone else, that means Army will have to raise and train SF for their military tasks and roles.. In that case what have we achieved?

Some very serious answer are required to be answered and settled at national security structure levels before any such move is contemplated.

R&AW Already Did It in Past
Operation Cyclone Training Of Mukti bahni Militia
R&AW set up two covert groups, Counterintelligence Team-X(CIT-X) and Counterintelligence Team-J(CIT-J),
LTTE Is Trained By R&AW ( The disastrous Jaffna HQ assualt mission of the IPKF was blamed by many on the lack of coordination between the IPKF and RAW )

SFF Under Special services Bureau

Seriously Is There Any Intelligence Agency in Tri services come Close To R&AW

Our Politician depleted This organization Which was Crown of Our Defense

 

[Freezer Dam]

I know he visits.Many times he quotes us and calls us "social media".

He mentioned two of my points. haha

What he said,just a summary of this discussion...Thanks you specially also r khanna...

 

[Freezer Dam]

I agree with immanuel in broad sense. But in this perennial debate, the mistake we make is that the approach towards SF has to be either/or.

First question I ask is, which formation is responsible for strategic (and inherently emergency) tasks? In our system we have:

1. NSG - for counter terrorist ops
2. Special Group
3. SFF including Archers.
4. 50th Independent Parachute Brigade

.... and now potentially AFSOD.

There are 9 SF battalions. Many more than even Airborne battalions.

So you could assign say 1-2 SF units to AFSOD, and reserve them exclusively for "strategic" tasks. That still leaves 2 units for north east, 3 units for Northern command, and 1 unit in 50th para bde. That still leaves NSG, SG, SFF and airborne units.

@Bhadra ji mentioned that we really dont have global tasks like US or UK - so why are even lamenting the use of SF in tactical scenarios?

@rkhanna @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR @abingdonboy

Sorry,for the national interest that should be done...

 

[Gessler]

NSG 29 SCG sporting shield-support hooks...its nice they always try out new stuff, testing & refining tactics -

Uses of such shield-supports in CQC -


Thanks to @abingdonboy for finding the original news video!

 

[aditya10r]

NSG 29 SCG sporting shield-support hooks...its nice they always try out new stuff, testing & refining tactics -

View attachment 46537

Uses of such shield-supports in CQC -


Thanks to @abingdonboy for finding the original news video!

I think Home ministry can lecture the Ministry of defence on procurement and all.

_______________________________

 

[rkhanna]

I think Home ministry can lecture the Ministry of defence on procurement and all.

_______________________________

I think it has less to do with pocurement but clarity of tasking and mission orientation from an org structure and overall MHA - (policing) objective

Our Naval (Marcos) army (sf) AR (garud) org mission objectives do not account for SOF capability as an Aux (independent) subset but an internal unit - hence they are always subservant to the needs of the mother services

 

[Assassin 2.0]