Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

Sancho

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Havent gone through the tender details, but if experts could tell if this tender is same as single engine fighter contest in a new name or not???.
It's worse, the basics about a fighter with capabilities in multiple roles and for the licence production remains the same since the early to 2000s and the original MRCA tender (Mirage 2000, F16 B52...), which then we're slightly modified to M-MRCA, then were modified to SE M-MRCA and now back to M-MRCA 2.0
When you add the contract / DPP modifications, it's basically...

M-MRCA 1.0 + SE M-MRCA = M-MRCA 2.0

And the only difference to the SE tender is, 4 fighters less and TE fighters included.
 

Steven Rogers

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1. The government didn't ordered 36 Rafale, the PM did, while the rest of his government were still in negotiations for the MMRCA Rafale deal.

2. The PM made a bad deal to show off something, ahead of cancelling the MMRCA.

3. They issued RFIs for the SE MMRCA, to cover the rest of the MMRCA requirement, in a more cost-effective way. But failed economic policies and record low defence spending, made a tender impossible. Now they got India back to the start with MMRCA 2.0, to delay any decision on new fighters till after the elections.

4. Yes the Rafale deal was a huge waste of money, since 9 billion USD for them and estimated around 15 billion for the new tender, is not cheaper than buying 126 x Rafales or EFs in the first place. Making a U turn back to MMRCA, just proves that the government is completely clueless on defence modernisation and support of IAF!

5. Indian specific customisations, are capability corrections / additions, to comply to IAFs operational requirements and not limited to Rafale but apply to nearly any fighter in the fleet.
1. The gov ordered the aircraft with the final requirements made by Airforce and mod not by PM. The airforce chief says it was required to give Air force some air and gas.

2. The PM and gov made the inter-gov deal which was best to sign, their is infrastructure coming for Rafale, and it's not just for 36.

3. Parrikar made the SE MMRCA was a drama to attract the tot clause, neither Swedish nor LM convinced gov enough from their offer other than screwdriving, drdo had reservations on the tot which made the whole SE MRCA sick.

4. The first deal included huge infrastructure and development program, the Air force chief says that the Rafale which India will get will be the most advance version available any where and the improvements will be based on avionics, Radar and other specs iaf wanted. The airforce chief says that the Rafale which were speculated in 2008 were more expensive than the one being bought

5. That's why most of Indian fleet got struck with spares problem and none touch the 75 percent availability mark.

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Sancho

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1. The gov ordered the aircraft with the final requirements made by Airforce and mod not by PM.
Neither did IAF asked for a 36 fighter deal, nor were there ever a "critical requirement" stated, until the government made it up to justify the deal. The Air chief was not even aware of why the PM made the deal and the DM was only involved after the announcement. So the deal was made and announced by the PM alone!

3. Parrikar made the SE MMRCA was a drama to attract the tot clause
It was not Parrikar that approved the SE MMRCA but Jaitley last May and since the original MRCA tender, under DM Fernades, the aim is to get as much critical ToT as possible. So that's nothing new but a primary goal anyway and we wasted a big opportunity by cancelling the MMRCA.

4. The first deal included huge infrastructure and development program
For 2 bases, because IAF would like to add 2 more squads to those bases in the long term. That however has nothing to do with this tender or the SE MMRCA or the MMRCA, since we are talking about fighters that are meant to be deployed at different air bases all around the country.

5. That's why most of Indian fleet got struck with spares problem and none touch the 75 percent availability mark.
Not really, they got stuck because most governments limit spare procurements to cut defence budgets. That's why availability went up, when Parrikar procured more spares and properly supported the fighters.
 

Steven Rogers

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Neither did IAF asked for a 36 fighter deal, nor were there ever a "critical requirement" stated, until the government made it up to justify the deal. The Air chief was not even aware of why the PM made the deal and the DM was only involved after the announcement. So the deal was made and announced by the PM alone!


It was not Parrikar that approved the SE MMRCA but Jaitley last May and since the original MRCA tender, under DM Fernades, the aim is to get as much critical ToT as possible. So that's nothing new but a primary goal anyway and we wasted a big opportunity by cancelling the MMRCA.


For 2 bases, because IAF would like to add 2 more squads to those bases in the long term. That however has nothing to do with this tender or the SE MMRCA or the MMRCA, since we are talking about fighters that are meant to be deployed at different air bases all around the country.

Not really, they got stuck because most governments limit spare procurements to cut defence budgets. That's why availability went up, when Parrikar procured more spares and properly supported the fighters.

The way the deal is finalized, it's laughable to claim that air force chief was not under notice when deal was made. It was always made and cleared by gov that this deal is not under MMRCA but totally different.

Parikkar started the SE fiasco, and made it official in Aero India 2017. It was best to attract tot which it failed so it got canceled, their was nothing big opportunity offered by SE nor MMRCA, as it also failed to satisfy the clause and got canceled .


Not only the bases but the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited infra structure, that ain't coming for nothing.

The spares in now under clause in the deal so that no new fighter craft face the same drama of low spares.
 

Sancho

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The way the deal is finalized, it's laughable to claim that air force chief was not under notice when deal was made.






Raha made it clear, that IAF wants 126 MMRCAs, not necessarily Rafale. Even after the deal, he was basically guessing what the deal was for and Dhanoa also confirmed, that it was not IAFs decision to go for the separate deal. Not to mention that even Parrikar constantly distanced himself from the deal and refered to it as the PMs deal.

Not only the bases but the Dassault Reliance Aerospace Limited infra structure, that ain't coming for nothing.
Of course not, they are producing Dassault business jet parts there, very useful for the Indian defence aviation industry and will make us certainly far more capable.:wink:

The spares in now under clause in the deal so that no new fighter craft face the same drama of low spares.
Not at all, only initial spares are included in any system cost deal and the Performance based logistics contract only, makes the OEM leagaly accountable, in case they can't provide the necessary spares to keep the aircraft at a certain availability rate. We still have to buy the spares extra and if the availability falls because of our fault, the OEM is not responsible either.

The PBL is just an additional clause in the DPP, to hold foreign OEM's accountable to their mistakes, just as the performance and Liquidated damage clauses would had held Dassault responsible, if they made mistakes that led to delays at a HAL production line, but not for HALs own mistakes.
 

mayfair

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Air Chief Raha again

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...s-iaf-chief/story-MxhxM3bFAVo51YtMrMNmgN.html

We don’t have Plan B if Rafale negotiations fail, says IAF chief
India has no Plan B if negotiations with French aerospace major Dassault Aviation to buy Rafale fighter jets collapse.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...-arup-raha-iaf-chief/articleshow/46300909.cms

Sukhoi cannot replace Rafale: Arup Raha, IAF chief
...
Raha said, "MMRCA and Sukhoi-30, the requirements are slightly different. And they have their own capabilities. They complement each other but do not replace each other."
...
"Rafale has been selected as L1 (lowest bidder). It is a replacement. It is important that we have the MMRCA and we need to have it in the quickest possible time because drawdown is true," Raha said.
...
Raha said, "No, we don't have a Plan B as of now. We are only working on Plan A".
 

Khalsa_Panth

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Like I said the Bahmani Baniya combo is doing its job. IAF is going to be majority indigenous in 20 years just watch।। :)
 

Steven Rogers

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Raha made it clear, that IAF wants 126 MMRCAs, not necessarily Rafale. Even after the deal, he was basically guessing what the deal was for and Dhanoa also confirmed, that it was not IAFs decision to go for the separate deal. Not to mention that even Parrikar constantly distanced himself from the deal and refered to it as the PMs deal.



Of course not, they are producing Dassault business jet parts there, very useful for the Indian defence aviation industry and will make us certainly far more capable.:wink:



Not at all, only initial spares are included in any system cost deal and the Performance based logistics contract only, makes the OEM leagaly accountable, in case they can't provide the necessary spares to keep the aircraft at a certain availability rate. We still have to buy the spares extra and if the availability falls because of our fault, the OEM is not responsible either.

The PBL is just an additional clause in the DPP, to hold foreign OEM's accountable to their mistakes, just as the performance and Liquidated damage clauses would had held Dassault responsible, if they made mistakes that led to delays at a HAL production line, but not for HALs own mistakes.
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/raf...ill-like-to-have-more-of-it-arup-raha-1470113
Rafale jet exceptional and air force will like to have more of it, just before deal signing.

http://www.indianairforce.nic.in/sites/default/files/RFI_Fighter_Aircraft.pdf
Tender for new fighters, tailor made for Rafale.

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indus

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It's worse, the basics about a fighter with capabilities in multiple roles and for the licence production remains the same since the early to 2000s and the original MRCA tender (Mirage 2000, F16 B52...), which then we're slightly modified to M-MRCA, then were modified to SE M-MRCA and now back to M-MRCA 2.0
When you add the contract / DPP modifications, it's basically...

M-MRCA 1.0 + SE M-MRCA = M-MRCA 2.0

And the only difference to the SE tender is, 4 fighters less and TE fighters included.
There is some confusion. Afaik first M means Medium, second M stands for multi role. Therefore Single Engine Fighter or SE could not have been a requirement for medium multi role fighter like Su35, 30, Rafale or EF 2000. The SE fighter is supposed to be a replacement for Mig 21 s which are neither medium/ heavy weight nor multi role platforms. Only Gripen, F16s or Tejas could qualify for this. So I come back to my original question. What is the IAF asking for?? Is it a multi role platform like Rafale or Eurofighter or are they asking for a light weight plane similar to Tejas in specifications, for which F 16, Gripen could be possible candidates. I remember Parrikar saying that Tejas will get inducted in sufficient numbers but SE fighter will also be there to fill in the gap in squadron strength. Even the current Rafale order comes with additional orders clause. So IAF can simply buy more Rafales in case they need more heavy platforms. Su 30 is already there in huge numbers. As much as i could understand is that this is a requirement for a Mig 21 s replacement only which in my view has to be done some way or the other.
 

WolfPack86

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It is better to buy MiG 35 fighter or Sukhoi-35 fighter aircraft from Russia through govt to govt deal instead wasting time in issuing for tender.
 

mayfair

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In the wake of Kargil war, IAF wanted 126 Mirage 2000s to augment their fleet. Then then GoI acquiesced and the ball was set in motion to go for the Mirages, which were the only realistic options available to IAF around that time (1999)

As usual, realities stepped in, first of all money, secondly the infamous laalpheetasaahi. Babus in the MoD in a mind boggling of epic proportions, claimed that because the planes to be acquired were Mirage 2000-5, they were no longer the same as Mirage 2000Hs acquired by IAF, hence it could not be treated as a follow on order!!!

Hence the acquisition had to be tendered. Which mean RFP had to be send out to other contenders. By then Mirage 2000 line was discontinued and no longer a realistic option.

To expand the number of contenders, MMRCA evolved into MRCA or simply Multi-role combat aircraft. The restriction on medium was restricted so both single and twin engine aircraft were allowed. Six companies responded and these aircraft were called in for trials.

After extensive trials, Rafale and Eurofighter were the two retained by the IAF technical evaluation team and forwarded to MoD for tendering and contract negotiations. Of course the whole thing turned out to be dog's bollocks, with this twist MRCA became untenable. Parrikar said as much and then the decision was taken to completely scrap MRCA and start afresh.

But negotiations never stalled. This is what Parrikar had to s
Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has fired another warning shot across the bows of French fighter manufacturer, Dassault, which has been negotiating for three years with the ministry of defence (MoD) to sell the Indian Air Force (IAF) 126 Rafale fighters.

A fortnight after declaring that the IAF could make do with additional Sukhoi-30MKI fighters - which HAL builds in Nashik - in case "complications" in the negotiations were not resolved, Parrikar has gone further in outlining how the IAF could function were it decided not to procure the Rafale.

Speaking to a television channel, Headlines Today, on Monday, Parrikar said the Su-30MKI offered a viable alternative, especially given that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was upgrading and overhauling the fighter and equipping it with state-of-the-art electronic warfare systems.

Said Parrikar: "Sukhoi-30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi-30, make it more capable." Dismissing concerns about the IAF's falling fighter numbers, Parrikar said the IAF could put more fighters into the sky by improving the serviceability rate of its current fleet of 35 squadrons.

Let us examine. Parrikar said if complications in negotiations were not resolved.

This was Parrikar's plan B. He was sending out a message to Dassault that India was perfectly happy to back away from the Rafale purchase in absence of a suitable deal. But what he DID NOT SAY was that the deal is off. He put the onus on Dassault to satisfy Indian concerns, thereby strengthening our hands at the bargaining table. Do note, MoD had not yet deiced to order more MKIs, they were focused on increasing serviceability

This was also to contrast ACM Raha who said there was no Plan B. Parrikar was saying, Yes, we do have a plan B we are prepared to exercise it in case Plan A doesn't work.

Do note, nowhere did he say that another manufacturer was in contention- EF, Gripen, or the Teens.
 

mayfair

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It is better to buy MiG 35 fighter or Sukhoi-35 fighter aircraft from Russia through govt to govt deal instead wasting time in issuing for tender.
We are struggling with Mig29 serviceability for for the IAF and IN. Su30MKI is anyway a G2G deal and Super Sukhois are at par with Su 35s, anyway.
 

Sancho

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There is some confusion. Afaik first M means Medium, second M stands for multi role. Therefore Single Engine Fighter or SE could not have been a requirement for medium multi role fighter like Su35, 30, Rafale or EF 2000...
The weight class of fighters is defined by the maximum take off weight and the MMRCA tender had a MTOW limit of 30t, to keep heavy weight fighters like the Su 30/34/35 or the F15 out.

Contenders of the MMRCA were

F16 Block 60
Gripen E
Mig 35
Rafale F3.2
EF T3B
F18 SH Block 2

The SE MMRCA, was only about single engine medium class fighters, with the difference that LM now proposed the less capable Block 70, to divert the production line.

Any medium class fighter can replace Mig 21s, because they can do the same air policing, air defence and CAS missions, it's just a matter of the operational requirements of the customer and the available budget. That's why several ex Soviet countries, which used Mig 21s in the past, now opt for either light class Gripen C/D or the medium class F16s.

We will have LCA as a proper replacement of the Mig 21 some day, but our operational requirement has increased compared to the past, since not Pakistan, but China is the main enemy and LCA no matter in which version, can defend the country against China. That's why IAF for nearly 2 decades now, is trying to get fighters above LCA, to add capabilities.

Never compare new fighters with the old once they are replacing, because that's not the benchmark!
The aim is what our opponents have and what the current standard of technology and capability is.
 

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