India, With or Without British Empire??

[balai_c]

British colonial rule was a huge blow to the development of India. The Industrial Revolution, which took place during this time and greatly improved the living standards of Europeans, was denied to India because of its colonial status. To make matters worse the British systematically destroyed the thriving cottage industries of pre-colonial India (which could have been used as a basis for an indigenous Industrial Revolution, as they had in Europe) by banning Indian goods throughout their empire, implementing heavy taxes, and forcing millions of Indians to grow cash crops for European markets. This colonial economic relationship between India and Britain effectively put India 100 years behind the West, a gap which we are now trying to close.

The only Asian country which was able to successfully industrialize and compete with the Europeans during this time was Japan, thanks to the reforms of the Meiji Restoration starting in 1868. It should also be noted that Japan was the only Asian country to successfully resist European colonization, commercial exploitation, and political influence, prior to the Meiji Restoration and the occasion of Perry's "visit" to Japan.

Very true. India for thousands of years, have been blessed with great minds. People like Aryabhata, existed, who was one of the greatest mathematical minds of the human history.

Aryabhata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Works

Aryabhata is the author of several treatises on mathematics and astronomy, some of which are lost. His major work, Aryabhatiya, a compendium of mathematics and astronomy, was extensively referred to in the Indian mathematical literature and has survived to modern times. The mathematical part of the Aryabhata covers arithmetic, algebra, plane trigonometry, and spherical trigonometry. It also contains continued fractions, quadratic equations, sums-of-power series, and a table of sines.

The Arya-siddhanta, a lot work on astronomical computations, is known through the writings of Aryabhata's contemporary, Varahamihira, and later mathematicians and commentators, including Brahmagupta and Bhaskara I. This work appears to be based on the older Surya Siddhanta and uses the midnight-day reckoning, as opposed to sunrise in Aryabhatiya. It also contained a description of several astronomical instruments: the gnomon (shanku-yantra), a shadow instrument (chhAyA-yantra), possibly angle-measuring devices, semicircular and circular (dhanur-yantra / chakra-yantra), a cylindrical stick yasti-yantra, an umbrella-shaped device called the chhatra-yantra, and water clocks of at least two types, bow-shaped and cylindrical.[3]

A third text, which may have survived in the Arabic translation, is Al ntf or Al-nanf. It claims that it is a translation by Aryabhata, but the Sanskrit name of this work is not known. Probably dating from the 9th century, it is mentioned by the Persian scholar and chronicler of India, Abū Rayhān al-Bīrūnī.[3]
[edit] Aryabhatiya

Direct details of Aryabhata's work are known only from the Aryabhatiya. The name "Aryabhatiya" is due to later commentators. Aryabhata himself may not have given it a name. His disciple Bhaskara I calls it Ashmakatantra (or the treatise from the Ashmaka). It is also occasionally referred to as Arya-shatas-aShTa (literally, Aryabhata's 108), because there are 108 verses in the text. It is written in the very terse style typical of sutra literature, in which each line is an aid to memory for a complex system. Thus, the explication of meaning is due to commentators. The text consists of the 108 verses and 13 introductory verses, and is divided into four pādas or chapters:

Gitikapada: (13 verses): large units of time—kalpa, manvantra, and yuga—which present a cosmology different from earlier texts such as Lagadha's Vedanga Jyotisha (c. 1st century BCE). There is also a table of sines (jya), given in a single verse. The duration of the planetary revolutions during a mahayuga is given as 4.32 million years.
Ganitapada (33 verses): covering mensuration (kṣetra vyāvahāra), arithmetic and geometric progressions, gnomon / shadows (shanku-chhAyA), simple, quadratic, simultaneous, and indeterminate equations
Kalakriyapada (25 verses): different units of time and a method for determining the positions of planets for a given day, calculations concerning the intercalary month (adhikamAsa), kShaya-tithis, and a seven-day week with names for the days of week.
Golapada (50 verses): Geometric/trigonometric aspects of the celestial sphere, features of the ecliptic, celestial equator, node, shape of the earth, cause of day and night, rising of zodiacal signs on horizon, etc. In addition, some versions cite a few colophons added at the end, extolling the virtues of the work, etc.

The Aryabhatiya presented a number of innovations in mathematics and astronomy in verse form, which were influential for many centuries. The extreme brevity of the text was elaborated in commentaries by his disciple Bhaskara I (Bhashya, c. 600 CE) and by Nilakantha Somayaji in his Aryabhatiya Bhasya, (1465 CE).
[edit] Mathematics
[edit] Place value system and zero

The place-value system, first seen in the 3rd century Bakhshali Manuscript, was clearly in place in his work. While he did not use a symbol for zero, the French mathematician Georges Ifrah explains that knowledge of zero was implicit in Aryabhata's place-value system as a place holder for the powers of ten with null coefficients[7]

However, Aryabhata did not use the Brahmi numerals. Continuing the Sanskritic tradition from Vedic times, he used letters of the alphabet to denote numbers, expressing quantities, such as the table of sines in a mnemonic form.[8]
[edit] Approximation of π

Aryabhata worked on the approximation for pi (π), and may have come to the conclusion that π is irrational. In the second part of the Aryabhatiyam (gaṇitapāda 10), he writes:

caturadhikam śatamaṣṭaguṇam dvāṣaṣṭistathā sahasrāṇām
ayutadvayaviṣkambhasyāsanno vṛttapariṇāhaḥ.
"Add four to 100, multiply by eight, and then add 62,000. By this rule the circumference of a circle with a diameter of 20,000 can be approached."[9]

This implies that the ratio of the circumference to the diameter is ((4 + 100) × 8 + 62000)/20000 = 62832/20000 = 3.1416, which is accurate to five significant figures.

It is speculated that Aryabhata used the word āsanna (approaching), to mean that not only is this an approximation but that the value is incommensurable (or irrational). If this is correct, it is quite a sophisticated insight, because the irrationality of pi was proved in Europe only in 1761 by Lambert.[10]

After Aryabhatiya was translated into Arabic (c. 820 CE) this approximation was mentioned in Al-Khwarizmi's book on algebra.[3]
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My point is , in the past, we have seen Indians reform themselves countless times. I am quite certain that our ancestors would have succeeded in modernizing ourselves without an enslaving empire.

 

[Blackwater]

Dear members,

I would like your views on two points,

Was British Empire good or bad for United India? Will India be as strong or weak as today, If britishers had not invaded India.

Was partitions good or bad for India? specially after looking wat is happpening in pakistan and bangladesh.

hahahahahh my old id

 

[Galaxy]

Dear members,

I would like your views on two points,

Was British Empire good or bad for United India? Will India be as strong or weak as today, If britishers had not invaded India.

Few centuries back, There was no concept of country like today. So, Most likely India would become single entity. May be under Maratha rule? Difficult to say.

Was partitions good or bad for India? specially after looking wat is happpening in pakistan and bangladesh.

It was good otherwise there would be civil/communal riot between 2 communities. Also, Most of the radical elements are part of Pak & BD today.

There is one more reason. During 40's, Muslim population was around 22% in undivided India. Today, It's 30%-35% (450-500 Million) in undivided India. By end of 21st century, if trends continues Muslims would be around 50%. Muslim population is increasing like there is no tomorrow. Who wants to live in Islamic country ?? It's better to live in Nepal rather than Muslim majority India. So, It was good that 2/3rd Muslims are not part of the country and culture of the country is still maintained to large extent.

 

[jackprince]

P.S:There is no doubt the partition of India was tragic and should not have happened,i feel its artificial and eventually the partition will be undone by the people of India(whichever country in the subcontinent they live in)

I always appreciated you post, which is same even in this case. But for the P.S. part.

Partition cannot be undone ever, as the others in the Sub-continent has developed their own national identity. Whther good or bad, they won't be able to think themselves as Indian and so the same idea is passed down to their offsprings which will not leave any leeway to give birth to any chance of "United India" idea. btw, I personally will be against this unification. Man, I don't want those bunch of extremist barbarians to cry their way into MY NATION to save their own asses and then take over from inside. No thank you very much. We are good.

but still such a big country couldn't be created if britishers didn't rule india. In fact india was never unite before britishers came.

Not True, Marathas managed it. File:India-1760-map.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second question answers that up to some level britishers are responsible for making india technically advance,they didn't intend to do so,but we in order to fight with them acquired these tools(i mean germane technologies). If britishers didn't rule india, the industrial revolution in europe couldn't reach india so early.:viannen_51:

The Industrial revelution would surely have reached India, since if India was not ruled by Britishes, then European powers would have to Trade with India, and don't under estimate the Marchents of India. The Banias would have surely managed to glean the technological advances and India always had much better source of intellegencia to improve upon the technological know-how. Heck, I would say if Marathas had managed a longer period of rule the ensuing peace and proseprity might ensure an India far ahead of Europe. Because if you notice that the downfall of Indian subcontinent in the field of inventions and innovations had come with volatile rule of various Mulim rulers, the milestones India still boasts had been mostly gained during the long rules of Hindu empires.

Third question is about that india started loose its resources since the dark period only,not when britishers came but much before that. I don't say that they didn't exploit us,but as a whole ruling class always exploited indian resources.Even now,majority of resources are with 40 percent of indian population,60 percent is still being exploited.

Exploitation will always exist, because the world is not fair. Exploitation will exist coz whatever our ideology might be, we (exception may be there) try our level best to secure the future of our children and thus make the most of what we have, thus taking a bit here, a bite there or not giving out. One might dream of perfect society and fight toward that, but that one person will always be an exception, since majority of his followers would be there to fight for a darwainistic existance for future of their children. At least I would. I try my best to be fair and honest in dealings, but I still don't give out of the way to help all the needy people I meet in my life, as I know that every penny I save may be needed for better education for my kids, or a weekend with my kids. So, those who have will always try to ensure that they have. It falls on the Have Nots to try to better their lot, coz nobody will give their own resources for others benefit. It is the same that is happening everywhere, even in strictly communist countries. Sorry, for being off topic.

As whole i say that british reign helped india to grow,but at the cost of huge losses.

Yes, the British in India helped to grow into the India we today have, since if British had never come we would have a completly different history and ideology. Particularly, the concept of Democracy might be alien. So democracy is most probably a gift we have NOW due to British rule, as the Indian National Movement is what persuaded the mass to come at the fore and take part in the decision making process at national level, and thus promoted the ideology of Democracy and people.

 

[lemontree]

Originally Posted by ashicjose
3.without them we would fight each other to death.

No guarentee. Or in other case we would have seen a united India under the Marathas.

What crap - the Marathas were never united themselves. Is the disunity amongst the marathas that defeated the mughals. had they been united then the maratha insurgency would have died after the execution of Sambhaji. But the numerous maratha nobles protected their own kingdoms and Aurangzeb had to fight for every inch of ground and defeat numerous nobles. The 22 years of insurgency sapped the mughal treasury and strength.

 

[Galaxy]

Although British looted India for 200 years, Few millions of people died or better i say they were killed in many famines from Bengal to Rajputana region. Still, i don't hate British in same way, the way i do for Islamic invaders. 95% Muslims invaders were all bastards and their sole purpose was to convert people into Islam by any method. Today, every 3rd Muslims ancestors were Hindus.

British didn't destroyed thousand of temples, libraries and historical places.
British didn't killed people in order to convert into Christianity otherwise population won't be 2.3% today.

They helped for unifications, may be for own reason. But eventually, it helped us in long run. Democracy, Defence set-up, Laws & judiciary, Infra development - All were started by British or we adopted from that system. If that would not happened, May be we would have done on own, By rulers like Marathas ? Don't know.

Also, They didn't not divided the country. It was Jinnah & Nehru ambition to become supreme leader of the nation. It was Muslims led by Jinnah wanted a separate Muslim country. And Today, when I see, It was good that partition happened.

 

[lemontree]

Tippu was the biggest enemy for Kerala, he did ethnic cleansing and even renamed Calicut as Islamabad once.

Correct. Tipu Sultan was a butcher and his death was a big relief.

 

[pankaj nema]

Even when the British were ruling this land there were 600 yes Six hundred princely states
where life was even worse

The British converted this land into a nation

The consciousness of being a nation in the civilisational sense because Hinduism was the COMMON
Factor throughout the land ; CAME only with the British rule

 

[pankaj nema]

It is often said that British PAUPERISED us that is true

But even in the Pre British times when India was wealthy the wealth
was used for WASTEFUL purposes like Palaces Mosques temples tombs Fine jewellery and clothing
and of course singing and dancing

So the point is that MODERN education , science and technology was ignored and
industrial revolution would have never come if the Brits would not have come

 

[KS]

Even when the British were ruling this land there were 600 yes Six hundred princely states
where life was even worse

Actually even after the English left there were 543 independent princely states.

It was to Sardar Patel's credit that they were integrated into a single country called India.

 

[pankaj nema]

What crap - the Marathas were never united themselves. Is the disunity amongst the marathas that defeated the mughals. had they been united then the maratha insurgency would have died after the execution of Sambhaji. But the numerous maratha nobles protected their own kingdoms and Aurangzeb had to fight for every inch of ground and defeat numerous nobles. The 22 years of insurgency sapped the mughal treasury and strength.

You are totally wrong

The Marathas were disunited for a brief period after Shivaji's death

But Aurangzeb executed Shivaji's son Sambhaji and Marathas realised the importance of unity

After 1680 ie Shivaji's death Aurangzeb came to Deccan to WIPE out the Marathas

From 1680 to 1689 ie Sambhaji's death Aurangzeb was fighting the individual Maratha Nobles

But post 1689 till 1707 ie when Finally Marathas wiped out Aurangzeb's army
The Marathas were united

This period is known as the 27 year war WHICH SAVED South and Western India from Aurangzeb

Total 5 LAKH Mughal soldiers died ; 2 LAKH marathas died and Mughals became bankrupt
Mughal empire broke up , Jats Rajputs and SIkhs Got independence and Aurangzeb died
as A BROKEN DEJECTED man

 

[ashicjose]

One off case. In any case he was ruling a region the size of half of Karnataka. Hardly comparable to the Mughals.

You point being ?

No guarentee. Or in other case we would have seen a united India under the Marathas.

1.lemontree
Originally Posted by SpArK
Tippu was the biggest enemy for Kerala, he did ethnic cleansing and even renamed Calicut as Islamabad once.
Correct. Tipu Sultan was a butcher and his death was a big relief.
2.Sardar becomes Sardar just because british
3.pankaj nema
It is often said that British PAUPERISED us that is true

But even in the Pre British times when India was wealthy the wealth
was used for WASTEFUL purposes like Palaces Mosques temples tombs Fine jewellery and clothing
and of course singing and dancing

So the point is that MODERN education , science and technology was ignored and
industrial revolution would have never come if the Brits would not have come

 

[lemontree]

You are totally wrong

Really??...

But Aurangzeb executed Shivaji's son Sambhaji and Marathas realised the importance of unity

You need to recheck the crap you are peddling as history....

After 1680 ie Shivaji's death Aurangzeb came to Deccan to WIPE out the Marathas

In the Deccan, Aurangzeb faught the Qutubshahi rulers of Golconda not the Marathas.

From 1680 to 1689 ie Sambhaji's death Aurangzeb was fighting the individual Maratha Nobles

Correct, so HOW am I totally wrong?

But post 1689 till 1707 ie when Finally Marathas wiped out Aurangzeb's army
The Marathas were united

Maratha's wiped out the Mughal army??...where are you reading this nonsense.

This period is known as the 27 year war WHICH SAVED South and Western India from Aurangzeb

Dont cut paste without understanding ther sequence of events in history.

Total 5 LAKH Mughal soldiers died ; 2 LAKH marathas died and Mughals became bankrupt
Mughal empire broke up , Jats Rajputs and SIkhs Got independence and Aurangzeb died
as A BROKEN DEJECTED man

How does all this prove that the Maratha Confederacy was a united front? They won because they were many independent fiefdoms.

The Maratha Confederacy (after 1707).
(a) Bhonsles - They ruled at Nagpur and were a leading power in the 18th-century confederacy. They were British clients from 1818 to 1853. Raghuji Bhonsle of Berar founded the dynasty in 1730.
(b) Gaikwads - They ruled Baroda. The founder of the dynasty was Damaji I who had risen to power by 1740. The last Gaekwar, Sayaji Rao III, died in 1939.
(c) Holkars - The ruled Malwa. They were at war with Baji Rao II from 1803-05 (so much for unity)
(d) Sindhia - Ruled Gwalior. Stayed neutral when the British were sacking the Bhonsle's and Holkar's in the 3rd Maratha war 1817-18. (so much for unity).

 

[lemontree]

But even in the Pre British times when India was wealthy the wealth
was used for WASTEFUL purposes like Palaces Mosques temples tombs Fine jewellery and clothing
and of course singing and dancing

Indian business controlled 25% of world trade. The village economy was very robust and self-sustaining.

So the point is that MODERN education , science and technology was ignored and
industrial revolution would have never come if the Brits would not have come

That is the unfortunate truth. India was in a continues state on war and upheaval and that is why education suffered.

 

[arya]

we want and we have to keep good relation with them

but not on the value of our needs

 

[Blackwater]

Actually even after the English left there were 543 independent princely states.

It was to Sardar Patel's credit that they were integrated into a single country called India.

i agree sardar patel made India

 

[Godless-Kafir]

For the hoards of silly indians who still can not seem to go beyond the british empires probaganda due to lack of exposure or lack of intelligence, please read what i say and think and reflect over it. You people seriously annoy the hell out of me with your lack of ability to critically think all these thoughts where sold to you and you bought into it like parrot for a cracker, now i am selling you the real story.


This propaganda of India would have never been united or have the rail road etc., if not for Britian is really stupid. This was the propaganda when Britian was still in power and sadly a lot of Indians have not yet forgotten that yet.
First of if not for India being rich and famous then the colonists like Columbus and numerous other travellars who wanted to find a way to india and instead ended up in the Americas and called them Indians mistakenly, would have never had the idea to leave Europe and so the US would have never been founded. How is that? These what if questions go both ways.

First of Britian was the luckiest empire in the world, why i say that? Because unlike the others they never went to conquer India, Americas, Australia, Africa or any other land with a army, it just so happens that 80% of the land they conquered was empty land which was either uninhabited or inhabited by very primitive tribes like Australian Aboriginals, American Indians or African Tribals. None of these tribes even had an idea of empire or colonization.So they just walked in with Bible in hand and took the land. That is the nature of Christianity or Islam, the idea of religious proselytism drove them to find new people to spread the word which in turn lead to an empire that they NEVER ENVISIONED when they set sail. This was not like Alexander who planed to conquer the world, the British had no idea this would happen and yet it was their religious regimentation that made them found a empire based in the ideas of Renaissance age.

Where ever there was an established empire they never could win be it Iran, Thailand or Japan, this is a fact. India was the one exception, why? For 200years the British tried to impress the mugal emperors to set trade with them, it never happened. They never dared attack the Mugal empire and when it feel like all empires do and the resulting vacuum of filling such an large area with one empire was very hard for any one Army. So just as the other small kingdooms who where in an frenzy to protect their interests the british unwittingly played poker in the game of India if it was only to protect their trade goods and the Indians who did not have the idea of nationality ended up working for the british and rest is history. They never came here or anywhere as conquerors, that is not an empire that forth to conquer it happened by luck,probability and chance for most of it. We should call it the great luck empire that never had an vision for conquest.

The question of will india have its own rail road or technology is another question the british left with an answer we have never challenged. Thailand or Japan have an unifying rail road even without the British, if they could you mean to say we could not have? Please digest these thoughts by yourself by takeing some time to contemplate your way out of western propaganda. To me the west would have never occurred if not for the east, i know that but the west as sold you the idea that they are the ones who started everything. You need to challenge that for yourself or live with low self-esteem and by fair&lovely to mask your stupidity.

 

[balai_c]

Actually, even in the middle of middle of islamic rampage, great mathematicians did survive in India. For example, we have madhava of sangama:

Mādhava of Sañgamāgrama - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mādhava of Sañgamāgrama (c. 1350 – c. 1425) was a prominent Kerala mathematician-astronomer from the town of IrińńālakkuÅ£a near Cochin, Kerala, India. He is considered the founder of the Kerala School of Astronomy and Mathematics. He was the first to have developed infinite series approximations for a range of trigonometric functions, which has been called the "decisive step onward from the finite procedures of ancient mathematics to treat their limit-passage to infinity".[1] His discoveries opened the doors to what has today come to be known as Mathematical Analysis.[2] One of the greatest mathematician-astronomers of the Middle Ages, Mādhavan made pioneering contributions to the study of infinite series, calculus, trigonometry, geometry and algebra.

Some scholars have also suggested that Mādhava's work, through the writings of the Kerala school, may have been transmitted to Europe via Jesuit missionaries and traders who were active around the ancient port of Muziris at the time. As a result, it may have had an influence on later European developments in analysis and calculus.[3]

He did some very important work on infinite series, specifically the madhava series:

Madhava series - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

n mathematics, a Madhava series is any one of the series in a collection of infinite series expressions all of which are believed to have been discovered by Sangamagrama Madhava (c. 1350 – c. 1425) the founder of the Kerala school of astronomy and mathematics. These expressions are the infinite power series expansions of the trigonometric sine, cosine and arctangent functions, and the special case of the power series expansion of the arctangent function yielding a formula for computing Ï€. The power series expansions of sine and cosine functions are respectively called Madhava's sine series and Madhava's cosine series. The power series expansion of the arctangent function is sometimes called Madhava–Gregory series[1][2] or Gregory–Madhava series. These power series are also collectively called Taylor–Madhava series.[3] The formula for Ï€ is referred to as Madhava–Newton series or Madhava–Leibnitz series or Leibniz formula for pi or Leibnitz–Gregory–Madhava series.[4] These further names for the various series are reflective of the names of the western discoverers or popularizers of the respective series.

So, works on mathematics went on even in the most challenging period of our history.

 

[pankaj nema]

Mr Lemon tree

EDITED

Aurangzeb hated Hindus and Hinduism and simply wanted to FINISH Hinduism

He did fight with Hyderabad Nizam and Qutubshahi of Golconda BUT ONCE Shivaji ANNOUNCED
His arrival in Indian Politics by raiding Surat ; since that day his Number ONE enemy were the Marathas

And that ba$tard didnt step into DECCAN till Shivaji was alive

And after 1680 he spent 27 continuos years in Deccan trying to wipe out the Marathas

But ultimately he weakened the Mughal empire so much that post 1707 Marathas
were the Biggest empire in India

 

[pankaj nema]

The unity or disunity of Marathas is another matter

What matters is that Marathas became united post Sambhaji's execution AND didny fight amongst
themselves THOUGH there is proof that Aurangzeb was Nearly succesful in creating divisions amongst them

Of course in those days there were local chieftains and nobles within the Marathas too
BUT all of them were united in defeating Aurangzeb AND they did so