India opens bids in $10.4-bn combat plane tender.

[pankaj nema]

The spate of offset contracts which are coming in will boost our technological know how

Similarly many foreign companies are setting up their JV in India in defence sector

DRDO's technological know how is " inching " forward

In 20 years we will be a technological super power

Do nt WORRY you ALL will LIVE to see that day :thumb:

 

[ace009]

The spate of offset contracts which are coming in will boost our technological know how

Similarly many foreign companies are setting up their JV in India in defence sector

DRDO's technological know how is " inching " forward

In 20 years we will be a technological super power

Do nt WORRY you ALL will LIVE to see that day :thumb:

I am not sure I would like to call India a superpower based on DRDO assets and abilities. No matter who gives us new technology and how well the ToT works, DRDO, if maintained in present form, will fuck up everything. According to my friend in DRDO, SNAFU is daily affair.

Anyway, my vote has always been for EF - although I would not be unhappy if Rafale wins. (For that matter even F/A-18 would have been good, considering current Mig-21s)...

 

[sob]

You are unaware of the latest Su 30 mki made by HAL which has been made from the raw material phase;
which has come after so many years

This latest Su 30 mki made by HAL was made up by 28 thousand parts involving 1.2 lakh tools

At least our engineers are learning and doing something useful

If it was NOT for TOT which you are dismissing as useless , India would be forced to go for Model
of the Gulf Countries ie import every thing

Then The costs then would be simply unaffordable because we ALWAYS require and induct
large numbers of every weapon system

Pankaj, out of the 28 thousand parts how many of the parts were sourced from within India. Out of the important parts, the figure will be closer to Zero
Even most of the precision machine tools are imported from European countries like Sweden, Germany and Switzerland.

Even today after years and years for the Cheetah and Chetak Helicopters, I was surprised to note the amount of imported components. Obviously HAL and other agencies have not learned much.

A visit to HAL Koraput will make you realise how much still we are dependent on imports for the MIG 21 engines.

 

[pankaj nema]

Pankaj, out of the 28 thousand parts how many of the parts were sourced from within India. Out of the important parts, the figure will be closer to Zero
Even most of the precision machine tools are imported from European countries like Sweden, Germany and Switzerland.

Even today after years and years for the Cheetah and Chetak Helicopters, I was surprised to note the amount of imported components. Obviously HAL and other agencies have not learned much.

A visit to HAL Koraput will make you realise how much still we are dependent on imports for the MIG 21 engines.

Please read about this Su 30 mki ACHIEVEMENT of HAL in Tarmak 007 blog

Secondly TOT has phases

This latest Su 30 mki is the first product of the PHASE 4 of
indigenious manufacture of Su 30 mki

This just shows how COMPLEX these things are

Su 30 mki TOT experience will HELP us in MMRCA and FGFA/PAK FA programme too

 

[sob]

Please read about this Su 30 mki ACHIEVEMENT of HAL in Tarmak 007 blog

Secondly TOT has phases
This latest Su 30 mki is the first product of PHASE 4

This just shows how COMPLEX these things are

Su 30 mki TOT experience will HELP us in MMRCA and FGA/PAK FA programme too

Could you give me a link to the blog please.

 

[pankaj nema]

Could you give me a link to the blog please.

Just type Tarmak 007 in google and you will get that blog

This news appeared on November 2
So scroll down

It is the second news on that page

 

[Yusuf]

You are unaware of the latest Su 30 mki made by HAL which has been made from the raw material phase;
which has come after so many years

This latest Su 30 mki made by HAL was made up by 28 thousand parts involving 1.2 lakh tools

At least our engineers are learning and doing something useful

If it was NOT for TOT which you are dismissing as useless , India would be forced to go for Model
of the Gulf Countries ie import every thing

Then The costs then would be simply unaffordable because we ALWAYS require and induct
large numbers of every weapon system

Do you know that India still lacks basic raw materials that go into a plane. Metallurgy is the key. They will tell you how to make the engine, but what about the raw material to make that engine? The steel or the other alloys?

the hard fact is that we are still way behind when it comes to advanced tech. We only recently managed to make warhship grade steel.

 

[Yusuf]

Pankaj, out of the 28 thousand parts how many of the parts were sourced from within India. Out of the important parts, the figure will be closer to Zero
Even most of the precision machine tools are imported from European countries like Sweden, Germany and Switzerland.

Even today after years and years for the Cheetah and Chetak Helicopters, I was surprised to note the amount of imported components. Obviously HAL and other agencies have not learned much.

A visit to HAL Koraput will make you realise how much still we are dependent on imports for the MIG 21 engines.

The last DefExpo i visited, IAF had a section where they were looking to develop Indian vendors for many of their components. Looking at the components that included hoses, i left wondering how the hell we cant manage to have this stuff made locally. It included parts of brakes pads!!

I would blame the government only for this for not encouraging private sector from the beginning. The private sector for want of profit would have gone any length to develop cutting edge stuff. Things are changing now but still the pace is pretty slow.

 

[nrj]

Pankaj, out of the 28 thousand parts how many of the parts were sourced from within India. Out of the important parts, the figure will be closer to Zero

Total indigenisation of Sukhoi next year: HAL (from 2009)

"Next year, HAL will achieve 100 per cent indigenisation of the Sukhoi aircraft — from the production of raw materials to the final plane assembly,"

"We're currently testing the locally produced engine for the Su-30MKI and are planning to launch its production in 2010."

India also plans to sign an inter-governmental agreement (IGA) with Russia for supply of HAL-manufactured Sukhoi airframes for third countries. It is already supplying some avionics equipment for Sukhoi aircraft Russia is building for third countries.

--

The Aircraft Manufacturing Division of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), Nasik, produced this metal bird with close to 28,000 parts and using 1,20,000 tools.

The avionics and accessories have come from HAL's Lucknow, Hyderabad and Korwa Divisions, while the engine was produced at the Koraput Division.

Desi Sukhoi performs supersonic ballet on debut | Aircraft built from complete raw material phase makes a silent entry

--

Figures are not close to zero.

 

[nitesh]

I would blame the government only for this for not encouraging private sector from the beginning. The private sector for want of profit would have gone any length to develop cutting edge stuff. Things are changing now but still the pace is pretty slow.

Not entirely true. There are lot of issues inter wind. It will be false to blame government alone

 

[sob]

The last DefExpo i visited, IAF had a section where they were looking to develop Indian vendors for many of their components. Looking at the components that included hoses, i left wondering how the hell we cant manage to have this stuff made locally. It included parts of brakes pads!!

I would blame the government only for this for not encouraging private sector from the beginning. The private sector for want of profit would have gone any length to develop cutting edge stuff. Things are changing now but still the pace is pretty slow.

Yusuf, for Aircraft the situation is a bit different. For the first part no manufacturer will give you details of the metallurgy of say a product like a bearing. You would also not know who is the supplier for those products. Dimensionally you can make an exact replica of it but in absence of the metallurgical data you will never be sure whether you have got it right or not. The only people who can help you are the ones who are manufacturing similar products for the aviation industry-- and their numbers are limited and they would not be Indian for sure.

Once you make the parts locally as per MIL standards, they have to be tested extensively on special test beds. I was involved in a similar exercise with parts for MIG 21, around 12-15 years, wherein we reverse engineered some Russian parts. The whole process took 5 years for the parts to be finally accepted as standard.

That is why when HAL makes such claims, I take it with a big pinch of salt.

 

[Yusuf]

Yusuf, for Aircraft the situation is a bit different. For the first part no manufacturer will give you details of the metallurgy of say a product like a bearing. You would also not know who is the supplier for those products. Dimensionally you can make an exact replica of it but in absence of the metallurgical data you will never be sure whether you have got it right or not. The only people who can help you are the ones who are manufacturing similar products for the aviation industry-- and their numbers are limited and they would not be Indian for sure.

Once you make the parts locally as per MIL standards, they have to be tested extensively on special test beds. I was involved in a similar exercise with parts for MIG 21, around 12-15 years, wherein we reverse engineered some Russian parts. The whole process took 5 years for the parts to be finally accepted as standard.

That is why when HAL makes such claims, I take it with a big pinch of salt.

Exactly the point. So whats the big deal about ToT when we cant use it? Rather than that, we just sit and reverse engineer. But then to reverse engineer we have to be that capable too. i mean we need to know what we are looking at. We may not even recognize and alloy and what its made up of if its something new and different. its not easy. The Chinese have been trying to do that and still are not that successful and depended on Russia esp for engines.

So then if not demanding ToT is going to reduce the price, then dont demand it as it is not going to make any difference.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

I think INDIA will go with the Euro-fighter Typhoon as there is a financial crisis in Europe and this deal may bring some recovery in their markets.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Hi freinds im new on this forum , anyway india is going fir Rafale & mark my words thats final

 

[asianobserve]

For ToT drama , add one more classic example , Bofors .
We are dying to get 155 mm. guns , OFB have the blue prints , we all know , what is the out come of that so called ToT .


btw , how many countries have production lines of F 16 , wonder do they have full ToT of F 16 ?

Taiwan did not get full TOT of F16 but they have produced their own indigenous fighter jet. AIDC F-CK-1 Ching-kuo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Japan also did not get full TOT on Western jet fighters but they developed this elegant jet fighter in the 70s:

 

[Zebra]

btw , OT here .....

If we are getting Rafales than no need to upgrade old M2000 , waste of money .

Batter keep them as it is and buy some more upgraded ones from UAE .

If IAF really loves Mirage that will increase IAF's a/c strength any way .

 

[p2prada]

Rafale loses MMRCA

A bilateral meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in Cannes on the sidelines of the G-20 summit could not take place on Friday thereby leading to speculation that France has lost the race for the `48,000 crore MMRCA deal.

No Manmohan, Sarkozy meet at G-20 fuels bid speculation

Manmohan and Obama were happily "meeting" away all the while before the SH and F-16 got kicked out. So, why the speculation now?

For all you know Sarko may have an upset stomach.

Do you know that India still lacks basic raw materials that go into a plane. Metallurgy is the key. They will tell you how to make the engine, but what about the raw material to make that engine? The steel or the other alloys?

the hard fact is that we are still way behind when it comes to advanced tech. We only recently managed to make warhship grade steel.

Yusuf, things are different with MKI. We managed to make our own warship grade steel, but the MKIs materials technology and know how was transferred by Russia. According to another HAL director, the complete ToT was supposedly transferred just before the production of home grown MKI started. Engine technology was transferred even before that. The warship grade steel wasn't transferred so we made our own.

 

[Yusuf]

Hi freinds im new on this forum , anyway india is going fir Rafale & mark my words thats final

Welcome aboard. Either you have a crystal ball or you are a relative of AK Anthony.

 

[Yusuf]

Manmohan and Obama were happily "meeting" away all the while before the SH and F-16 got kicked out. So, why the speculation now?

For all you know Sarko may have an upset stomach.



Yusuf, things are different with MKI. We managed to make our own warship grade steel, but the MKIs materials technology and know how was transferred by Russia. According to another HAL director, the complete ToT was supposedly transferred just before the production of home grown MKI started. Engine technology was transferred even before that. The warship grade steel wasn't transferred so we made our own.

Or he was attending to his wife and new baby

P2P, i was talking in general about the various ToT as well as our own capability to produce the required materials. We may get the entire blue print but what if we dont have the industrial set up to produce that raw material?

One more thing is that if we have got full ToT for the Al 31s, then why are we struggling with the Kaveri? Cant we use the knowledge gained from the Russians? Its not about the AL 31s alone, what about the engines that we have bought over the years?

Something is not right about this whole ToT business.

 

[SPIEZ]

P2P, i was talking in general about the various ToT as well as our own capability to produce the required materials. We may get the entire blue print but what if we dont have the industrial set up to produce that raw material?

One more thing is that if we have got full ToT for the Al 31s, then why are we struggling with the Kaveri? Cant we use the knowledge gained from the Russians? Its not about the AL 31s alone, what about the engines that we have bought over the years?

Something is not right about this whole ToT business.

We have history of License producing Aircrafts and their components. But I still don't understand why we struggle so much with the LCA.