India becomes “frontline” state in US war plans against China

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

I didn't say so really.
India has done great progress on high energy materials, directed energy beams, electromagnetic gun (still in early phase though) & shape memory alloys.

and why is a directed energy weapon that Heats up a particle until its destroyed is maded i mean even those rust removing lasers use laser ablation method but the only thing is metal reflects the laser i mean many things are made up of composites nowadays even if the power source would be big but it could prove to be a very effective weapon like our own THEL which costs 5000RS per shot compared to a conventional missile which can cost you carores of money
Just Curious

 

[dhananjay1]

This is just left wing fantasy article from "World Socialist Web Site" conjuring up visions of alliance between Trump's America and India under "Hindu supremacist BJP government"

 

[Krusty]

Correct hai sirjee.

The more friendly we get with China, the more dividends we can extract from the US. If we become anti-China by default, then the US can take us for granted. Let's not forget that whatever strategic value India has in the eyes of the US is because of our potential to derail Chinese hegemony in the region. And, the more China antagonizes the US, the more the US will need us. But the paradox is thus that for China to be able to present itself as a credible rival to the US, it needs to be free from any distraction from India. << This is our bargaining chip we can use to milk both China and US.

China will be willing to bribe us to simply keep us out of the conflict, rather than diverting their military's attention from their larger goals in the Pacific. We should simply tell the US "these are the strategic concessions/ trade deals/ favorable policies China has offered us to stay out of the fight. If you want us to get involved, you need to give us more than that. Otherwise we have no vested interest in risking our lives to fight China".

If India antagonizes China militarily in a way which distracts their attention and forces them to divert their military assets towards Indian border, then China becomes a smaller threat to the US, and as soon as it becomes a smaller threat, then India's utility in the eye's of the US goes down.

This is a very delicate dance. We must keep our options such that no one could take us for granted.

Same with CPEC. It doesn't REALLY hurt us as much as US propaganda makes it look.

It shouldnt be a bribe. If they want India away from Taiwan/Japan and SCS, they should stay out of IOR and Pakistan/Sri Lanka. It's as simple as that. We shouldn't make it appear as a bribe. We shall do it in our own terms.

 

[pringles]

It shouldnt be a bribe. If they want India away from Taiwan/Japan and SCS, they should stay out of IOR and Pakistan/Sri Lanka. It's as simple as that. We shouldn't make it appear as a bribe. We shall do it in our own terms.

Bribe is just a colloquial for a quid pro quo.

Incidentally, the thought that I espouse comes from an Indian professor from Singapore.

See this, every minute of it is a delight :


I used to be vehemently anti-China but this lecture changed my ideas. The lecturer actually suggests how India could get a lot of dividends from a collaboration with China and that we have nothing to gain from seeing China as an enemy (black and white). See them as a competitor, but your real rival is still the west.

After all, it is not China which sponsors those rats in JNU, it is not China who got Jallikattu banned. All of this cultural hegemony (PETA, SJW, Feminism) comes from the west. China may have given tactical weapons to Pakistan, but it is dwarfed by what the US has given quantitatively and qualitatively. The most recent being the Harpoon missile and a (now defunct) attempt to give them the latest block of F16s. US gives 3B to Pakistan every year. Chinese military aid doesn't match this even by a factor of 1/10. If is the Abrahamic west which is a greater evil. That doesn't mean China is good, but if you hit China, then you are doing the west a favor by taking out their enemy. Once India has spilled its own blood/ political capital/ economy to neutralize or even stop China from growing its hegemony, then the next target of the west will be India.

Just like that tiger in Life of Pi kept that lad alive, China keeps us alive. The ONLY reason the West did not go the whole hog in trying to decimate us like they did using Arab Spring or Turkey Coup is because a weaker India will mean a stronger China, which the west dreads. If the Chinese hegemonic challenge to the west didn't exist, then India would be the target of Arab Spring type CIA sponsored coups. So, in a weird way a strong, resurgent and arrogant China is in our interest. The more arrogant they get, the more concessions the west is willing to make towards India, to contain them. So, if we can get paid to contain China, why do it for free? PRETEND that we are not interested in taking on China, and get the west to 'bribe' us to take on China. At the same time, PRETEND to be a close ally of US to get China to 'bribe' us to stay out of the conflict.

That is where the bribe remark comes from. Not a dole, but a tribute we extract from both powers simply to PRETEND to be on board their agenda, while we are actually buying time to build up our strength to pursue our own agenda.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

and why is a directed energy weapon that Heats up a particle until its destroyed is maded i mean even those rust removing lasers use laser ablation method but the only thing is metal reflects the laser i mean many things are made up of composites nowadays even if the power source would be big but it could prove to be a very effective weapon like our own THEL which costs 5000RS per shot compared to a conventional missile which can cost you carores of money
Just Curious

May be, let's have the all building blocks set first.

 

[pringles]

May be, let's have the all building blocks set first.

Yes my bros, keep the anti-China sentiment in context for now.

Indian military has been ignored by UPA for 10 years, and it will take 6 years for us to start receiving the upgraded equipment even if we place an order today. Till then, use diplomacy to ward off threats.

Any future war with Pakistan which leads to the successful breakup of Pakistan will involve taking on the US because they will not allow us to erode their influence in 'South Asia' so easily. Pakistan is like their aircraft carrier. Our best bet to win this thing is to keep the US tied up in regional conflicts all over the world, so that they cannot put together the troops/ equipment/ coalition/ propaganda required for a South Asian theater. This means shaking hands with every country which is at war with US, including Iran, Syria, and China.

The SCS and Taiwan and Japan issues are actually in our favor. They will keep the US-China engaged in the Pacific theater, while the peacefools will keep the US engaged in the Middle eastern theater, and 30% of US high tech equipment (missile defense system, drone data links, intel conduits) is engaged in Europe, against Russia. This arrangement is useful for us.

Picking a fight with China is not in our interest as it allows the US to free their assets from the Pacific theater and deploy them elsewhere. Just make a pact with Israel and China. When India goes into Pakistan, China must go into Taiwan and Israel must take the Suez Canal. In one swift master stroke, the US footprint in the world will be eroded from all theaters. US ki maa behen ek ho jayegi. This is the price they pay for threatening to wipe out our civilization with nukes during the 1971 war.

So, my brothers, China is a golden egg laying chicken. Don't kill it.

 

[Krusty]

Bribe is just a colloquial for a quid pro quo.

Incidentally, the thought that I espouse comes from an Indian professor from Singapore.

See this, every minute of it is a delight :


I used to be vehemently anti-China but this lecture changed my ideas. The lecturer actually suggests how India could get a lot of dividends from a collaboration with China and that we have nothing to gain from seeing China as an enemy (black and white). See them as a competitor, but your real rival is still the west.

After all, it is not China which sponsors those rats in JNU, it is not China who got Jallikattu banned. All of this cultural hegemony (PETA, SJW, Feminism) comes from the west.

Tomae-tos tomaa-tos yes. However, what I'm saying is, when compromise is triggered from China's side, the resultant geo political message to the world should also reflect the same. Or India will get an image of corrupt weakling.

I mean, take the Cuban missile crisis. The general view is that Russia was the 'loser' even though they were the ones who set the terms for the compromise because they packed up and left and Kennedy gave a bombastic speech to the international media and Kruschev just kept quiet and got back to his vodka. At the time, no one knew the Americans secretly pulled the Jupiter missiles out of turkey.

Engineering a solution is one thing, using it to bolster your geo political image is another. If we ever strike a deal, we should come out in a position of strength, with tangible Chinese policy shift in Pakistan and Srilanka is all I'm saying. Chinese should make the compromise. Not us.

For me, both China and the west are equally dangerous. China's Long term strategic vision has no place for a strong India. And the west, they do what they do best. Destroy at any and all cost

 

[pringles]

Engineering a solution is one thing, using it to bolster your geo political image is another.

Agreed.

The solution which I suggested ought to be a secret pact. I just gave the raw framework. I'm sure our diplomacy guys will be able to sugar coat it and make it look noble.

India does this very well.

In fact, the truest evaluation Indian strategic culture came from a spontaneous response to an impromptu question asked to CIA chief during a press conference. In his moment of spontaneity, he gave away what the US REALLY thinks of India. The questioner basically asked "why does the US always resort to military campaigns to resolve issues, why can't they be non-violent and accommodating like India". The CIA guy snapped and said "...well...India does a lot and get away with it".

The more I read, the more I agree what he was saying. Just as an example, we have given dual use nuclear tech to Argentina and Vietnam which can be easily made into a nuke, but still no one accuses us of nuclear proliferation. We have propped up militia groups (Northern Alliance), but no one accuses us of being terrorist supporters. We meddled in a lot of countries, but no one accuses of toppling governments, unlike the US. In fact, we have been as cunning in our conduct as the US is, but we are better at sugar coating it. The rednecks are just loud mouths who get all the blame. We do every single thing the US has done, but we stay under the radar. The Maurya empire gobbled up the entire of Afghanistan and half of Iran, and the Chola empire gobbled up the whole of South East Asia, including Indonesia, still Indians keep saying "India has never invaded anyone". That is our deep cunning. We play meek and get massive dividends from it. In Hindi it's called "yeda ban ke peda khana"

We do a lot of cunning stuff but keep everyone, including our own people, under the impression that we are meek, benign people. The reason I do not like the black and white branding of entire countries as allies vs enemies is because it does not account for the grey areas where the magic happens. Our policies are issue-based, not country-based. We agree with China when they speak against western imperialism, but we also agree with the west when they speak of Chinese hegemony.

During the Russia-Ukraine conflict, people said "obviously China supported Russia because they are allies", but that is not the case. China supported Russia because a Russia-Ukraine conflict would make Russia lose its military hardware sales in Ukraine, and hurt Russian economy, which will make Russia dependent on China. It would also ruin the emerging US-Russia consensus which saw China as a threat to both the US and Russia. So the Chinese told Russia, you pick a fight with Ukraine, we will not oppose you. We will meekly play the role of your junior partner. They got very good dividends for playing the role of a weak junior partner.

See this :

 

[no smoking]

Agreed.

The solution which I suggested ought to be a secret pact. I just gave the raw framework. ......That is our deep cunning. We play meek and get massive dividends from it. In Hindi it's called "yeda ban ke peda khana"

No, the reason you can get away from it is you never played a major role outside South Asia. Each time you always stand behind someone. Have you make massive dividends from it? Absolutely for any smaller country, for a country like India, just a peanut.

We do a lot of cunning stuff but keep everyone, including our own people, under the impression that we are meek, benign people. The reason I do not like the black and white branding of entire countries as allies vs enemies is because it does not account for the grey areas where the magic happens. Our policies are issue-based, not country-based.

No, everyone knows what you did, especially those governments and intelligence agencies. It is just not the right time to talk about it yet. As long as the big boys haven't settle their conflict, nobody has much interest to read your issue on the paper. It is simply not your turn.

We agree with China when they speak against western imperialism, but we also agree with the west when they speak of Chinese hegemony.

Last time, the country played the same tactics and played very good was Yugoslavia. She was the good friend of West in East Europe in cold war. But after the end of cold war, she was the one received most bang.

So the Chinese told Russia, you pick a fight with Ukraine, we will not oppose you. We will meekly play the role of your junior partner. They got very good dividends for playing the role of a weak junior partner.

Oh, Chinese did lot more than "We will not oppose you", they provided fund, weapons (yes, that is right, Chinese version of Russian shell/bomb/ammunition) to BOTH SIDE.

 

[AnantS]

No, the reason you can get away from it is you never played a major role outside South Asia. Each time you always stand behind someone. Have you make massive dividends from it? Absolutely for any smaller country, for a country like India, just a peanut.

NAM. WW2. UN Deployments(Military/Humanitarian) across many countries. Armed & Trained NA in Afghanistan, Isolation of Apartheid regime in SA etc are some of the few contri of India. Now the difference between India and China is that latter is a leech. China's +ve contribution/influence outside borders is 0. China such a big ass country, initially stood behind Soviets sucked its blood, then stood behind Amerika to suck its blood and massive profit out of it. Can India replicate the same? No. But India will form alliances with willing partner to hurt China at will.

No, everyone knows what you did, especially those governments and intelligence agencies. It is just not the right time to talk about it yet. As long as the big boys haven't settle their conflict, nobody has much interest to read your issue on the paper. It is simply not your turn.

All the Big Boys actively coordinates in big games we play. You will see more in future of course.

Last time, the country played the same tactics and played very good was Yugoslavia. She was the good friend of West in East Europe in cold war. But after the end of cold war, she was the one received most bang.

The other country which did the same was China, it tangoed with both sides during Cold War. It did very well. Or is it that china has yet to receive the gang bang that you are talking about?

Oh, Chinese did lot more than "We will not oppose you", they provided fund, weapons (yes, that is right, Chinese version of Russian shell/bomb/ammunition) to BOTH SIDE.

No Wonder, Russia has given green light to arm countries with Russian weapons which are adversary to China. Good!

 

[pringles]

NAM. WW2. UN Deployments(Military/Humanitarian) across many countries. Armed & Trained NA in Afghanistan, Isolation of Apartheid regime in SA etc are some of the few contri of India. Now the difference between India and China is that latter is a leech. China's +ve contribution/influence outside borders is 0. China such a big ass country, initially stood behind Soviets sucked its blood, then stood behind Amerika to suck its blood and massive profit out of it. Can India replicate the same? No. But India will form alliances with willing partner to hurt China at will.


All the Big Boys actively coordinates in big games we play. You will see more in future of course.

The other country which did the same was China, it tangoed with both sides during Cold War. It did very well. Or is it that china has yet to receive the gang bang that you are talking about?

No Wonder, Russia has given green light to arm countries with Russian weapons which are adversary to China. Good!

China's deception against Russia has been quite extensive, to the point where there is no metaphor for it. I guess this will become a metaphor in itself.

Russia found out the Chinese front orgs had been buying stakes in Russian oil drilling companies and one by one planting their members as board members to those companies. I lost the link to that. It was narrated by G.Parthasarthy.

 

[Nicky G]

China will keep India like a frog in the boiling pot. They don't want us dead. They just want us to be on our toes to make sure we don't take any resolute strategic actions.

You can simply say, we need to give them a bloody nose for their 1962 misadventure, take back Aksai Chin and reach a border settlement along Tibet, and our issues are sorted out. What other issues do we have with China?

The more friendly you are (or pretend to be) with China, the more the US will take you seriously. If the US knows that you ALREADY severed your relations with China, they know you are all alone and they have you in a corner, and dictate their terms on us. India and China has joint anti-terror ops training every year. Imagine the shivers it sends down the spine of the Hindu-phobes in Pentagon. The fact that, in principle, India and China are not averse to working together on issues of common strategic interest is scary to the west.

Let the US commit their own soldiers to die, if they are so convinced that China is so evil. Why should India be so eager to meddle in SCS? US-China annual trade is 700B $, which is more than 10X our military budget. Why doesn't the US stop their trade with China, if they is so evil? They want India to become their attack dog and ruin our trade and relations with China while the US merrily trades with them. We don't take sides in international conflicts, we maintain an ambivalent position and squeeze both sides for our benefit, like we did during the Cold War.

For 70 years, Pakistan has been bleeding us, but still India is shy to even label Pakistan as an "enemy state" (we have given them MFN status), but we are suddenly so eager to label China as an enemy state after the US propaganda department started peddling that theory to Indian youngsters. The US doesn't want India to invade and fracture Pakistan so their propaganda moles in Indian media tell us that "a stable and prosperous Pakistan is good for India", so Indian youths parrot that. They tell us "China is evil" so we parrot that.

They want us weak and balkanized. Read up what their strategic thinkers have planned.

The point is a weak China is in India's interests, we should play our part in that weakening as much as we can without the cost being too high.

Sure, pretend to get close to China to scare the west and extract the most from them; just don't delude ourselves into thinking we can ever be friendly with such a belligerent and oppressive nation; one which occupies our territory - that's worse than any US funding on Pak.

Indian meddling in SCS would be merely us opening a front if the Chinese were to get too aggressive in the Indian ocean. I in no means agree with us becoming anyone's attack dog - however, we must play our part such as arming Vietnam.

MFN is meaningless - we can curb trade with Pak whenever we want. The real deal is IWT and what we can do to turn Pak into a dessert. Only a fool would believe a stable Pak is good for India just as a fool would believe a strong China is good for us.

All in all, I don't care what we label some country, neither do I want to waste Indian lives fighting a useless war of no benefit to India; my point is, be realistic and understand that China is an enemy nation and act accordingly.

 

[pringles]

just don't delude ourselves into thinking we can ever be friendly with such a belligerent and oppressive nation; one which occupies our territory - that's worse than any US funding on Pak.

....understand that China is an enemy nation and act accordingly.

Where in my entire post I have said that China is our BFF?

SCS is 'too hot' an issue for someone to get involved in just to bluff them, if we don't have a serious intention to fight a war over it, which we don't.

We have stationed T72 tanks on China border, installed Brahmos regiments, made airfields, have the SFF and have the Tibet card to play. We have given Brahmos and ships to Vietnam. we are already servicing their Sukhois. We have given them nuclear tech under our civil nuclear partnership. We are also propping up Philippines and Indonesia. We have launched a satellite on behalf of Indonesia and have them in our pockets. We have enough cards to play against China if we want. Our military can deliver a bloody nose if we want. We can solve our own issues. Why this constant urge to become a junior partner of the west?

SCS or no SCS, being in any alliance with the US brings political liabilities, because we have made ties with many countries in the world based on our credibility as an independent nation with an independent voice. Once you join any US alliance, you lose that credibility, like UK has.

We can do training with the US, we can buy weapons/tech, all of this is purely transnational and temporary. Any alliance with the US will be a political decision on our part, and the least I want the US to do is to abandon military aid to Pakistan, if they want India to participate in their SCS campaign. We can simply keep parroting infinitely "we don't have the extra troops to commit to out eastern theater until you keep giving weapons to Pakistan on our western theater". That is basically the truth.

 

[jadoogar]

Yes my bros, keep the anti-China sentiment in context for now.

Indian military has been ignored by UPA for 10 years, and it will take 6 years for us to start receiving the upgraded equipment even if we place an order today. Till then, use diplomacy to ward off threats.

Any future war with Pakistan which leads to the successful breakup of Pakistan will involve taking on the US because they will not allow us to erode their influence in 'South Asia' so easily. Pakistan is like their aircraft carrier. Our best bet to win this thing is to keep the US tied up in regional conflicts all over the world, so that they cannot put together the troops/ equipment/ coalition/ propaganda required for a South Asian theater. This means shaking hands with every country which is at war with US, including Iran, Syria, and China.

The SCS and Taiwan and Japan issues are actually in our favor. They will keep the US-China engaged in the Pacific theater, while the peacefools will keep the US engaged in the Middle eastern theater, and 30% of US high tech equipment (missile defense system, drone data links, intel conduits) is engaged in Europe, against Russia. This arrangement is useful for us.

Picking a fight with China is not in our interest as it allows the US to free their assets from the Pacific theater and deploy them elsewhere. Just make a pact with Israel and China. When India goes into Pakistan, China must go into Taiwan and Israel must take the Suez Canal. In one swift master stroke, the US footprint in the world will be eroded from all theaters. US ki maa behen ek ho jayegi. This is the price they pay for threatening to wipe out our civilization with nukes during the 1971 war.

So, my brothers, China is a golden egg laying chicken. Don't kill it.

Taiwan is a fake issue. The Chinese create it to divert attention from Northern Arunachal (tibbath ) and East Turkmenistan (sinkiang ). The chicoms already have what they need from Taiwan - there are a million mainlanders in Taiwan, companies like Foxconn have millions of employees and hundreds of billions invested in China.

The Taiwanese toe Chinese line on legally and morally indefensible issues like Chinese claims in the South China sea.

The Taiwan issue is a red herring

 

[AnantS]

@pringles

China's deception against Russia has been quite extensive, to the point where there is no metaphor for it. I guess this will become a metaphor in itself.

Russia found out the Chinese front orgs had been buying stakes in Russian oil drilling companies and one by one planting their members as board members to those companies. I lost the link to that. It was narrated by G.Parthasarthy.

chinese policies are not new.. they are simply copying old soviet style of deception with chinese twist.

 

[pringles]

@pringles

chinese policies are not new.. they are simply copying old soviet style of deception with chinese twist.

The Russians have had a historic policy of seeking security through promoting instability on their periphery by infiltrating the governments of the smaller nations and micro managing them. Very hands on.

As opposed to that model, the Chinese do not micro manage. They tell the vassal state "you can manage your domestic affairs any way you want, but you will pay tributes to China and defer to China when it comes to your foreign policy. Other that that, we don't care if you are socialist, communist, capitalist, pro-gay, anti-gay etc". This tribute model is hands off.

The Chinese model is indigenous to them, like Chanakyaneeti is to us. It's called The tribute system (chaogong tizhi 朝贡体制)

See these :

http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199920082/obo-9780199920082-0069.xml

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/21/o...-ancient-model-for-chinas-new-power.html?_r=0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Chinese_tributary_system

 

[AnantS]

The Russians have had a historic policy of seeking security through promoting instability on their periphery by infiltrating the governments of the smaller nations and micro managing them. Very hands on.

As opposed to that model, the Chinese do not micro manage. They tell the vassal state "you can manage your domestic affairs any way you want, but you will pay tributes to China and defer to China when it comes to your foreign policy. Other that that, we don't care if you are socialist, communist, capitalist, pro-gay, anti-gay etc". This tribute model is hands off.

The Chinese model is indigenous to them, like Chanakyaneeti is to us. It's called The tribute system (chaogong tizhi 朝贡体制)

See these :

http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780199920082/obo-9780199920082-0069.xml

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/21/o...-ancient-model-for-chinas-new-power.html?_r=0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Chinese_tributary_system

China has/had been creating instability.. be it NE in India, supplying arms to terrorists from pakistan, supporting murderous north korean regime, or its active role in vietnam wars.. you are giving too much credit to china. what china's system you are talking about is not different from policies of other countries(which have power to exert)

 

[no smoking]

China's deception against Russia has been quite extensive, to the point where there is no metaphor for it. I guess this will become a metaphor in itself.

Deception? What deception? Did Russia and China sign any agreement promising no sale of weapon to the opposite of each other? Hasn't been Russia selling weapons to India and Vietnam for decades?

That is not deception, that is how the game played by Amercians, Russians and Chinese, French and British.

Russia found out the Chinese front orgs had been buying stakes in Russian oil drilling companies and one by one planting their members as board members to those companies. I lost the link to that. It was narrated by G.Parthasarthy.

Oh, please, kid, Russian government has been aware of this from beginning, ok!
Any government, as long as it is functioning properly, is watching their strategic industries very very closely. Any trading of big amount of shares will require the approval of government. The background of buyer will be checked by intelligence department thoroughly. The idea that the front org of foreign country can control a company with strategic value in a big country like US, Russia, etc is basically a myth, not to mention to put a representative in the board.
This kind of transaction can only go through with agreement between governments, for example, Putin allows Chinese to buy certain shares of the Russian oil company because Chinese provided billions dollars of loan to the pipeline project. If one day, Russians want to terminate this deal, the Chinese either sell their share back or hold it as waste paper.