Imported Single Engine Fighter Jet Contest

[Sancho]

SAAB is doing a lot of PR for marking purpose, snake oil included ..

I have seen their mission of winning hearts and minds during MMRCA competitions at Delhi ..

The key difference is the selection of Gripen E in Brazil, because Brazil added a lot of capabilities and commitment to the fighter, that wasn't there from the Swedish side alone, during MMRCA.
Sweden initially considered to canibabilize Gripen C/Ds and make as much use of available systems in their ordered Gripen E. That changed with Brazil and now both sides are focused on a full fledged new version. Brazil with a lot of Israeli content, while Saab is pushing their EW capabilities to a new level. The recently presented Arexis escorts jamming pod, is one of the key new systems and could make Gripen E to a dedicated Growler alternative.
Not to mention that thanks to Indian delays, they had time to develop their fighter, which was not the case during MMRCA, when only a TD was available.

 

[Kshithij]

Saab technology proposal for LCA MK1A - AESA:

Saab technology proposal for LCA MK1A - EW:

Example of Saab EW parts in Malaysian Su 30 MKM:

Example of Saab EW in HAL Rudra:

Saab Arexis EWS on Gripen E:

http://saab.com/arexis

http://www.janes.com/article/70320/gripen-e-to-feature-next-generation-electronic-warfare-capability

Saab / Adani:

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/8...mp&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=googleamp

Maybe this one?
http://saab.com/air/airborne-solutions/unmanned-aerial-systems/skeldar-v-200-maritime/

SAAB uses AESA radar from the USA company - Selex. Good luck with SAAB offering GaN radar.

 

[Kshithij]

The key difference is the selection of Gripen E in Brazil, because Brazil added a lot of capabilities and commitment to the fighter, that wasn't there from the Swedish side alone, during MMRCA.
Sweden initially considered to canibabilize Gripen C/Ds and make as much use of available systems in their ordered Gripen E. That changed with Brazil and now both sides are focused on a full fledged new version. Brazil with a lot of Israeli content, while Saab is pushing their EW capabilities to a new level. The recently presented Arexis escorts jamming pod, is one of the key new systems and could make Gripen E to a dedicated Growler alternative.

SAAB sells all its Gripen planes by offering loans, 100% offset and other big deals. Otherwise, no sane country buys them. SAAB is one of the most unethical companies as far as I have observed. It is better to not do business with such people even if their products are good (as of now, it isn't)

 

[Sancho]

SAAB uses AESA radar from the USA company - Selex. Good luck with SAAB offering GaN radar.

Not really, the repositioner is from Selex, the radar itself from Saab, which is why the version offered for LCA is a fixed version. They also own the GaN technology which is already applied to their latest ground based AESA radars, the coming Global Eye AWACS and the Arexis EW family and if India is interested, GaN was on offer for fighter radars too:

http://www.stratpost.com/saab-adds-gan-aesa-co-dev-to-make-india-gripen-pitch/

 

[Kshithij]

Not really, the repositioner is from Selex, the radar itself from Saab, which is why the version offered for LCA is a fixed version. They also own the GaN technology which is already applied to their latest ground based AESA radars, the coming Global Eye AWACS and the Arexis EW family and if India is interested, GaN was on offer for fighter radars too:

http://www.stratpost.com/saab-adds-gan-aesa-co-dev-to-make-india-gripen-pitch/

They don't have it yet. Even USA has GaN radar for their patriot missile defence system but haven't yet miniaturised it. They are now testing it to gain more data before miniaturization.

SAAB does not have any active GaN radar, but just a prototype. They are offering to co-develop, not give away blueprint of their existing radar. India also had made GaN module as seen in some display. Why should India agree for their co-development? India probably has more advanced stage research on it (classified).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I am just saying, I have seen their aggressive marketing in Indian arms bazaar ..

The key difference is the selection of Gripen E in Brazil, because Brazil added a lot of capabilities and commitment to the fighter, that wasn't there from the Swedish side alone, during MMRCA.

Sweden initially considered to canibabilize Gripen C/Ds and make as much use of available systems in their ordered Gripen E. That changed with Brazil and now both sides are focused on a full fledged new version. Brazil with a lot of Israeli content, while Saab is pushing their EW capabilities to a new level. The recently presented Arexis escorts jamming pod, is one of the key new systems and could make Gripen E to a dedicated Growler alternative.

Not to mention that thanks to Indian delays, they had time to develop their fighter, which was not the case during MMRCA, when only a TD was available.

 

[AnantS]

Sorry, an error in my typing: he told the india side that he should NOT use the J7II patrs for India Mig21, but the gentalman insists they are smae.

still even more absurd! No Air force official would say like that. The said bloke, whom Chinese engineer had imagined to be a Indian Govt rep, in most probability would be a third party arms dealer. Given China does seem to deal a lot with them to peddle its defense wares!

 

[Sancho]

Saab technology proposal for LCA MK1A - AESA:

Israeli content in Brazilian Gripen E's:

HUD and WAD (Wide Area Display)

Targo 2 HMS

PAWS missile

Litening and RecceLite pods

Other weapons and systems under consideration

 

[no smoking]

still even more absurd! No Air force official would say like that. The said bloke, whom Chinese engineer had imagined to be a Indian Govt rep, in most probability would be a third party arms dealer. Given China does seem to deal a lot with them to peddle its defense wares!

When you are buying parts or equipment from BLACK MARKET, you won't expect your tender will seek the customer service from manufacturer on your behalf.

 

[AnantS]

When you are buying parts or equipment from BLACK MARKET, you won't expect your tender will seek the customer service from manufacturer on your behalf.

Show the RFQ document that was sent to Chinese manufacturer as you claim ...... until then its just another one of the old wives' tales which Chinese propahgandus usually throw about

 

[cyclops]

Wishing for an industrial approach to lca. Great nations have great industries. America didn't win world war 2 on the basis of quality but on quantity.

Exactly.
A large scale production effort won't only stabilise the production lines, it will also help achieve economies of scale.

We need the numbers, the quality will follow and R&D will become easier.

Americans have done this for years.
They induct a somewhat ready but new weapon system into their military, stand by it despite fervent criticism, improve and debug it slowly over the years and in the meantime the OEMs are getting the patronage from the military and they keep innovating.
And before anyone realises, US has the premier system in the world and they are dictating the terms, while everyone else is scampering like idiots to catch up with the Americans.

I think certain "third parties" know this and hence the effort to hamper indigenisation here in India.

 

[G10]

Mindlessly jumping into largescale production creates a mess. Cautious approach is better. After gun trials in flight its ok to jump into it. Hopefully sorting python issue does not take large changes to be made. Our PSUs take a lot of time to make changes and test.

 

[Kshithij]

Exactly.
A large scale production effort won't only stabilise the production lines, it will also help achieve economies of scale.

We need the numbers, the quality will follow and R&D will become easier.

Americans have done this for years.
They induct a somewhat ready but new weapon system into their military, stand by it despite fervent criticism, improve and debug it slowly over the years and in the meantime the OEMs are getting the patronage from the military and they keep innovating.
And before anyone realises, US has the premier system in the world and they are dictating the terms, while everyone else is scampering like idiots to catch up with the Americans.

I think certain "third parties" know this and hence the effort to hamper indigenisation here in India.

Without perfection of technology, why manufacture mass scale? First develop technology. For example, if Tejas is mass manufactured, problems will be-
1) No MK2 and hence lower ability
2) No engine and hence import slavery
3) No AESA radar and hence import slavery.

The problems will further increase when repair has to be done. Then we will need imports again.

First mass manufacture nuclear bombs and missiles. They are made discreetly and are not shown in public. Making planes, ships and tanks can follow.

Scaling up is only a matter of time. If we can make 10, we can make 10000. Scaling up is just doing the same things over and over again. The key part is - how to do it - technology. It is important to master it. Due to supercomputing, it has become easier for India to develop the technology faster than what west could do before

 

[torque456]

Without perfection of technology, why manufacture mass scale? First develop technology. For example, if Tejas is mass manufactured, problems will be-
1) No MK2 and hence lower ability
2) No engine and hence import slavery
3) No AESA radar and hence import slavery.

The problems will further increase when repair has to be done. Then we will need imports again.

First mass manufacture nuclear bombs and missiles. They are made discreetly and are not shown in public. Making planes, ships and tanks can follow.

Scaling up is only a matter of time. If we can make 10, we can make 10000. Scaling up is just doing the same things over and over again. The key part is - how to do it - technology. It is important to master it. Due to supercomputing, it has become easier for India to develop the technology faster than what west could do before

China built a thousand jets with imported engines and other components. Tejas as it is , is better than good. Everything will be indigenised eventually, If you build in scale. The situation of IAF is dire and with an excellent product at hand, we are waiting for mk2. When mk2 comes what stops us from asking for AMCA as definitely it would be stealthy in comparison lca.

What happens when amca comes and people ask us to wait for 6th gen because any meaningful number won't come before 2035. Even Pakistan will have squadrons of 5th gens.

If we ramp up lca it would create an ecosystem which would boost investments in next gen tech and make amca possible and more likely to succeed and hopefully fast track hca and 6th gen.

 

[torque456]

Mindlessly jumping into largescale production creates a mess. Cautious approach is better. After gun trials in flight its ok to jump into it. Hopefully sorting python issue does not take large changes to be made. Our PSUs take a lot of time to make changes and test.

Rafales, typhoons, mirages all lacked guns or missiles with multiple squadrons in service. Heck we even imported jets without guns. Look at f 35, they have already built hundreds of them without foc.

And here with lca with probably more than half missiles currently seen all over the world proven on it, we have pitiful order of 20 jets of ioc config.

Guns trials will be successful tomorrow if not today. No problem is insurmountable.

We are going to retire all mig 21 and 27 next year. We don't have anybother option.

 

[cyclops]

Without perfection of technology, why manufacture mass scale? First develop technology. For example, if Tejas is mass manufactured, problems will be-
1) No MK2 and hence lower ability
2) No engine and hence import slavery
3) No AESA radar and hence import slavery.

The problems will further increase when repair has to be done. Then we will need imports again.

First mass manufacture nuclear bombs and missiles. They are made discreetly and are not shown in public. Making planes, ships and tanks can follow.

Scaling up is only a matter of time. If we can make 10, we can make 10000. Scaling up is just doing the same things over and over again. The key part is - how to do it - technology. It is important to master it. Due to supercomputing, it has become easier for India to develop the technology faster than what west could do before

"Perfection of tech" and mass production don't happen one by one, but are organic processes and happen as and when necessary.
We cannot wait for the perfect subsystem every single time.
This is where IAF mucked up.

Mass production allows the production lines to improve and use resources efficiently, hence the term economies of scale.
Which means costs drop down as more fighters are made and as more fighters are made the engineers eventually are able to pin point problems in the aircraft easily and find new ways to make and install the aircrafts faster.
Say if IAF wanted something like the OLS 30 on Tejas, it will become easier to integrate with a working and experienced production line.

Makes our people proficient in maintenance of aircrafts and when Mk2, AMCA,etc are to be built these very same people will be ready and prepared.

This also leaves more money to do R&D and so forth.

No one is asking to mass produce the same thing, but to get the mk2 we need to mass produce the Mk1s and Mk1As.

This is the reason why Lockheed Martin is reluctant in giving up the F-16s, these units have achieved economies of scale and are actually making Lockheed Martin a shit ton of money.

Unfortunately for us, scaling up does not happen by doing the same thing over and over again, we cannot go to 10000 from 10, you have to try new things, fail, try again, scale up and so forth.

You want to do something like this?

Or this, over and over again?

The thing you want, i.e. "how to do it" is not possible if we are not doing it in large numbers.

What one does often, one gets good at.

 

[Kshithij]

China built a thousand jets with imported engines and other components. Tejas as it is , is better than good. Everything will be indigenised eventually, If you build in scale. The situation of IAF is dire and with an excellent product at hand, we are waiting for mk2. When mk2 comes what stops us from asking for AMCA as definitely it would be stealthy in comparison lca.

What happens when amca comes and people ask us to wait for 6th gen because any meaningful number won't come before 2035. Even Pakistan will have squadrons of 5th gens.

If we ramp up lca it would create an ecosystem which would boost investments in next gen tech and make amca possible and more likely to succeed and hopefully fast track hca and 6th gen.

IAF is not desperate. It is a nonsense told by media. The whole point of indigenisation is to get the entire plane. No one makes a plane with imported engine and calls it indigenous.

123+ trainers + special series +prototype = 150 planes are being produced. Thia is called mass production. If you need 1000 planes, then as I said, wait for things to be improved.

We can't mindlessly buy wasteful products. Tejas Mk1A is smaller and hence inferior. We need MK2 to be mass manufactured. AMCA is different as it is a twin engine plane and has higher cost and maintenance. Tejas MK2 is the main plane.

 

[Kshithij]

"Perfection of tech" and mass production don't happen one by one, but are organic processes and happen as and when necessary.
We cannot wait for the perfect subsystem every single time.
This is where IAF mucked up.

Mass production allows the production lines to improve and use resources efficiently, hence the term economies of scale.
Which means costs drop down as more fighters are made and as more fighters are made the engineers eventually are able to pin point problems in the aircraft easily and find new ways to make and install the aircrafts faster.
Say if IAF wanted something like the OLS 30 on Tejas, it will become easier to integrate with a working and experienced production line.

Makes our people proficient in maintenance of aircrafts and when Mk2, AMCA,etc are to be built these very same people will be ready and prepared.

This also leaves more money to do R&D and so forth.

No one is asking to mass produce the same thing, but to get the mk2 we need to mass produce the Mk1s and Mk1As.

This is the reason why Lockheed Martin is reluctant in giving up the F-16s, these units have achieved economies of scale and are actually making Lockheed Martin a shit ton of money.

Unfortunately for us, scaling up does not happen by doing the same thing over and over again, we cannot go to 10000 from 10, you have to try new things, fail, try again, scale up and so forth.

You want to do something like this?
View attachment 21989
Or this, over and over again?
View attachment 21990

The thing you want, i.e. "how to do it" is not possible if we are not doing it in large numbers.

What one does often, one gets good at.

I understand what you are saying. But, Mk1A is not upgradable due to smaller size. People did a mistake of making an extra small plane. If they were more thoughtful about upgrades and had made a slightly bigger design, things would have been better.

 

[torque456]

IAF is not desperate. It is a nonsense told by media. The whole point of indigenisation is to get the entire plane. No one makes a plane with imported engine and calls it indigenous.

123+ trainers + special series +prototype = 150 planes are being produced. Thia is called mass production. If you need 1000 planes, then as I said, wait for things to be improved.

We can't mindlessly buy wasteful products. Tejas Mk1A is smaller and hence inferior. We need MK2 to be mass manufactured. AMCA is different as it is a twin engine plane and has higher cost and maintenance. Tejas MK2 is the main plane.

120 includes trainers. All others are different from each other in dimensions so it's not mass production at all.

Smaller is not a waste. By this logic US should only buy f 22 and why is China still producing single engine jets. It's an interceptor at core. It needs to be fast, agile and in numbers. It doesn't need fancy jamming equipment, dircm etc. for it's missions as at all times it will be under friendly radar coverage. It doesn't need a huge radar for the same reason.
IAF or MOD are not morons to sanction 1000s of crores for a plane and make it too small.


And we are practically at the lowest levels of squadrons since independence and you say the situation is not dire. We are the fastest growing economy, we need to expand our air Force not degrade it.

 

[Kshithij]

120 includes trainers. All others are different from each other in dimensions so it's not mass production at all.

Smaller is not a waste. By this logic US should only buy f 22 and why is China still producing single engine jets. It's an interceptor at core. It needs to be fast, agile and in numbers. It doesn't need fancy jamming equipment, dircm etc. for it's missions as at all times it will be under friendly radar coverage. It doesn't need a huge radar for the same reason.
IAF or MOD are not morons to sanction 1000s of crores for a plane and make it too small.


And we are practically at the lowest levels of squadrons since independence and you say the situation is not dire. We are the fastest growing economy, we need to expand our air Force not degrade it.

There is no absolute interceptor plane. Tejas is a multirole plane, not an interceptor. No need to mistake Tejas as just a MiG21 replacement. It is a media hype.

Being shirt sighted like this will cost huge money and give no long term advantage. We need a plane to satisfy an objective, not just exist to soothe your mind. If it takes some more years, then so be it.

India doesn't have excess money to spend lavishly. We have to adjust our expenses and forex to balance the needs of today and tomorrow. For this, we need a plane with indigenous engine and upgradable design lie MK2.

Smaller is not a waste. By this logic US should only buy f 22 and why is China still producing single engine jets.

I never said that small plane is a waste. Even Tejas MK2 is small and single engine. But, too small Tejas MK1A is less useful. 130 is a big enough numbers for the time being. We ordered only 36 Rafale over 7 years and 272 Su30 over 19 years if you remember. Comparatively, 130 Tejas for 8 years is a decent number.