IAF made progress in moving to acquire fighters

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by AbRaj, Feb 27, 2020.

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  1. AbRaj

    AbRaj Regular Member

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    India has made some progress in moving to acquire fighters, tech and equipment but it is yet to get its hands on any.
    SNEHESH ALEX PHILIP27 February, 2020 10:04 am IST
    [​IMG]
    The IAF's Akash Ganga team during the 87th Indian Air Force Day celebrations at Hindon Airbase, in Ghaziabad | Suraj Singh Bisht | The Print
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    New Delhi: A year after Pakistan outgunned and outnumbered the Indian Air Force on 27 February through “Ops Swift Retort”, not much has changed on the ground.

    Pakistan was armed with better fighter planes, Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missiles like AMRAAMs and backed by state-of-the-art SAAB airborne warning and control systems (AWACS), and left the Indian Air Force wanting in many places.

    From limitations of the Su 30 MKI radar to pick up enemy fighters properly to the technical issue faced by the Mirage 2000 aircraft over firing their Mica air-to-air missile, the list of the shortcomings that the IAF experienced is long.


    If Pakistan were to repeat the “Swift Retort” today, the situation doesn’t look great even a year later.

    There is, however, a silver lining — the Rafale fighter jets, to be equipped with better weapons package, especially the Meteor air-to-air missile that tilts the scales in India’s favour against both Pakistan and China, will start arriving May onwards.

    Also read: Inside story of attack on Balakot — from IAF officer who planned and executed it

    Neither Pakistan nor China at present has a missile to counter the Meteor, which has a range of nearly 150 km — it’s much higher than the American AMRAAM that had outgunned the Sukhois with a range of over 70 km.

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    This means that a Rafale would be able to take out an enemy aircraft 150 km away in air without even having to cross the Indian air space.


    But it will take at least a year for the first four Rafales to be completely operationalised with their weapons system.

    Also, the much-needed Software Defined Radios (SDR) have finally been ordered from Israel which will help secure communication without fear of jamming.


    Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was shot down after he failed to hear command to retreat given by the ground-based command centre because of jamming carried out by the Pakistan Air Force.

    India is also in the process of clearing the acquisition of two more PHALCON AWACS, which will help the IAF have round-the-clock eye in the sky.

    The lack of more AWACS was felt during the 27 February aerial dual when Pakistan, which operates about 10 such systems, took advantage of the changeover of the IAF’s eye in the sky.


    The only actual change that has taken place on the ground is that the MiG 29 has been replaced with the Su 30 MKI as the additional fighter at the Srinagar base that houses the 51 Squadron of the MiG 21 Bisons.

    However, plans to permanently base the Su 30 MKI cannot be implemented immediately because the hangars in Srinagar can’t accommodate the giant Russian fighters, defence sources told ThePrint.

    This means that the Sukhois will have to fly in from other bases in case of yet another skirmish.

    Also read: Wing Commander Abhinandan being shot down is the real Rafale scandal

    How Pakistan retaliated for Balakot
    Around 8:45 am on 27 February, the first signs of a possible attack emerged as Pakistan shut down its civilian airspace and stopped all commercial flights.

    About half-an-hour later, multiple Pakistan fighter jets, perfectly timed with the changeover of IAF AWACS, started taking off from different bases.

    At that particular moment, only two Su 30 MKI in the south of the Pir Panjal and two upgraded Mirage 2000, north of the mountains, were doing the Combat Air Patrol (CAP).

    The Pakistani package of 25 fighters, including the F 16s and the Mirages, made their way towards the LoC but did not cross the mutually agreed 10 km cut-off point for fighters.

    A few Pakistani fighters took off in the direction of the international border with Rajasthan in a bid to trick India, just like India had done the previous day.

    Leading the Pakistan strike package was the F-16s armed with the AMRAAMs.

    The American-built fighters moved towards the south of the Pir Panjal while the Mirages moved towards where the other two Indian fighters were flying.

    Also read: Pakistani military plane that crashed was used for surveillance after Balakot strikes

    What went wrong
    Sources said the Indian fighters were simply outnumbered.

    The Sukhois with their R-77 missiles, which have a range that’s shorter than the AMRAAMs, were no match for the F-16s that had better air-to-air weapons.

    Sources said one Sukhoi was fired upon by the F-16s and had to take high-speed maneouvres to outgun the AMRAAMs.

    The second Sukhoi too took tactical action keeping in mind that they were told by the Barnala-based Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) that AMRAAMs were being fired.

    The second Sukhoi had also failed to properly pick up the enemy fighters through its radars.

    On the northern side of the Pir Panjal, the upgraded Mirages on CAP duty were outnumbered completely. They had also faced a technical glitch because of which they could not engage Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with the MICA air-to-air missiles that have a better range than the ones used by PAF in that sector.

    Panicked PAF pilots break into Punjabi
    Realising that the Indian fighters were outgunned and outnumbered, the Barnala-based IACCS ordered the scrambling of six MiG-21s.

    Since the MiGs climbed in the shadow of the Pir Panjal range, Pakistan’s AWAC failed to detect them. The sudden appearance of the MiGs proved to be a blessing for India, as the Pakistani fighters were taken aback.

    Panicked Pakistani pilots, who broke into Punjabi rather than sticking to the military codes, fired about 11 H-4 glide-bombs, weighing 1,000 kg each, at Indian military installations, none of which hit the target.

    The MiG pilots were then asked to “go hot”, meaning they had to go in for a missile lock on enemy aircraft. But the MiGs soon came within the firing range of the F-16s, and they were asked to “turn cold”, meaning they were to retreat.

    However, Wing Commander Varthaman, who had gone too close to the LoC, could not hear the command as Pakistan had jammed radio frequencies.

    In his pursuit of locking on to a Pakistani fighter, Varthaman crossed the LoC and was within the firing range of Pakistani fighters
     
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  3. AbRaj

    AbRaj Regular Member

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    On topic : Commentators are abusing SAP for trying to present the entire event as unbiased as possible. Both Indians and Pukies.
     
  4. Foxbat

    Foxbat Regular Member

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    What is the point making a new thread on this sensationalist non-factual article? It is already posted in the other Mig-21 shoots down F-16 thread.

    "Pakistan was armed with better fighter planes,"
    "From limitations of the Su 30 MKI radar to pick up enemy fighters"
    "The Sukhois with their R-77 missiles, which have a range that’s shorter than the AMRAAMs, were no match for the F-16s that had better air-to-air weapons."

    Where is "Expert journalist" Snehesh Alex Philip getting this from? Not even a mention of the F-16 kill or even a claim? Seems like a paid propaganda article to get views from the Pakistanis....
     
  5. Atcjurvin

    Atcjurvin Regular Member

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    Tu phir se bakchodi kar raha hai gaali khane ke liye.
     
  6. AbRaj

    AbRaj Regular Member

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    Nahi yaar. I just wanted to show that a lot of people besides me too believe that IAF lost on 27th a good chance to bring pukes to its knees.
     
  7. varun9509

    varun9509 Regular Member

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    IAF did Balakot strike deep inside Pakistan, the next day they defended a fleet of 24 jets with attack armaments with just 8 fighters, yes 1 got destroyed, but they averted a major attack from PAF, did not let any of the missle or bomb do any damage Indian side, and driven them away before they could even cross LOC.

    From which angle did IAF lose?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  8. Atcjurvin

    Atcjurvin Regular Member

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    Sure even after killing f16 with mig21 we lost.
     
  9. Atcjurvin

    Atcjurvin Regular Member

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    Abe laudo ab agli baar kya tu kisi porki news channel ko quote karega apne aap to satisfy karne ke liye. Maa chod denge yaha ke log.
     
  10. Atcjurvin

    Atcjurvin Regular Member

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    A day after the Indian Air Force (IAF) carried out aerial strikes on a Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) terrorist camp in Balakot, the Pakistani Air Force tried to carry out a similar attack against Indian military targets but failed to do so.
    "On February 27, the Pakistani Air Force with its package of more than 20 planes led by the American F-16s along with the French Mirage-IIIs and Chinese JF-17, fired 11 H-4 1,000 kg bombs from ranges of around 50 kms inside their territory at military targets at three locations but failed to hit any of them," government sources revealed to ANI.
    The H-4 bombs fired by the Mirage-IIIs of the Pakistan Air Force are classified as stand-off weapons which can be launched from a distance to aid in quicker evasive manoeuvres of jets that fire them, similar to the Spice-2000 bombs used by the Indian Air Force in the Balakot strikes. H-4 bombs are made by Pakistan with the assistance of South Africa.
    "The H-4s are not very accurate and missed their targets. In one of the attacks on an army camp in Jammu and Kashmir, the building was protected by a tall and thick tree which suffered extensive damage but deflected the Pakistani bomb," the sources added.
    It is learnt that senior officers were present inside the campus when the attacks took place. The three locations where the bombs fell are in Poonch and adjoining sectors. A Board of Officers has been formed to analyse the remains of the Pakistani bombs and other debris from the explosion caused by the bombs.
    The government sources speaking on condition of anonymity to ANI due to their close proximity to operational knowledge, speculate that the reason for Pakistani jets missing their targets could be the quick response of Indian jets flying at high speeds to repulse the attack. In haste, the H-4 bombs were let off thereby missing their intended targets.
    The Pakistani fighter planes had taken off from different bases on February 27 and started gathering over Pakistan occupied Kashmir and their Northern Areas before they turned around to launch attacks on Indian military targets.
    The most advanced Pakistani fighter F-16s were used for launching the air-to-air missiles against Indian fighter jets defending air space while the Mirage IIIs were used for launching air to ground missiles in the attacks.
    It was during this aggression that Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 plane using his R-73 air-to-air missile fired from his MiG-21 plane.
    Indian Su-30MKIs flying in air defence roles used Chaffs, a tactic of offloading flares to dodge missiles and deft flying manoeuvres to dodge the AIM-20 AMRAAMs fired by the F-16s.
    CHAL BSDK AB NIKAL YAHA SE TERA BAAP PAKISTANI HOGA YA TERI MAA NE BHAI SE SHAADI KI HOGI TABHI TUJH JAISA CHUTIYA PAIDA HUA.
     
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  11. Knowitall

    Knowitall Regular Member

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    Bhenchod ab sala ye chutiye thread bhi banana shuru kar diya hai.
    Yaha zyada dhyan mat do pakistan me corona phel raha hai waha dhyan do.

    Mods please do consider the proposal given by @Bhumihar to appoint new mods there are so many deserving people here it will help you guys ease up the load too.
     
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  12. Akshay Fenix

    Akshay Fenix Regular Member

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    IAF attacked and destroyed their Jihadi HQ, the next morning the IAF defended the Indian Army HQ from Porki AssForce.

    Where did we lose? How hard is it for people to understand...
     
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  13. Atcjurvin

    Atcjurvin Regular Member

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    Still he will not understand bcz his brain is in the foot.
     
  14. aarav

    aarav जय परशुराम‍। Senior Member

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    Not much has changed?
    images - 2020-02-13T212119.872.jpeg brahmos a
    watch-astra-test-launch.jpg
    Astra
    images - 2019-09-24T115952.650.jpeg
    2nd Netra
    Order of R27
     
  15. abingdonboy

    abingdonboy Senior Member Senior Member

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    Things take time to come in, long lead times etc.


    For the last few years I've been saying the capability asymmetry isn't sufficient to give India a clear edge, UPA let Pakis get far too close to Indian capabilities and moves taken since 2014 won't see fruits for many years.

    What is coming in that will influence a similar kind of limited aerial conflict in the future:

    Astra (this one has to be amongst the biggest upgrades)
    LRSAM/MRSAM
    S400 (isn't needed but it's coming sooner than XRSAM will be ready)
    AKASH NG
    Rafale+ Meteor (PAF has 0 to counter this)
    LCA MK1A (with it's AESAR, SPJ, new suite of BVRAAMs and WVRAAMs it changes dynamics of PAF-IAF entirely, now there is no real weak spot- Bison is currently)
    HPR* (will transform the AD network)
    AWACS (INDIA) (again, PAF will have no answer to it's power and detection range)

    *Not to mention the AD command that CDS is raising


    Most of these will be in service around 2022, a few will take a little longer and what's noticeable is almost none of the above had been given green light or been ordered before Modi.


    Only after 2025 will the clear edge be restored in India's favour, beyond that the gap will only grow as next gen tech starts to trickle in (SFDR, XRSAM, AMCA, UCAVs, ISTAR etc etc)
     
  16. Hari Sud

    Hari Sud Senior Member Senior Member

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    The irony is that IAF did not anticipate a retaliatory move by Pakistani Air Force. As a matter of fact they should have expected. That is why no air assets were deployed to trap the invading force. That was a big mistake. Two MIG-21 on CAP duty and two Sukhois to support were insufficient to counter an Armada of 16 planes approaching them. Even the AWACS were sitting on the ground. It is the AWACS air controller who warned them of the approaching force. ...... what an irony. Heads should roll for this oversight. The good part is that an Indian missile fired by an MIG downed a F-16. A missile fired by a Pakistani plane downed an MIG.

    What is not explained by this lead paper is that Pakistanis fired 5 AMRAAM at two Sukhois. They could not down the Sukhois. That was their big loss of face for them. They as a matter of fact came to shoot down the Sukhois not MIG. The latter was a bonus. It is unclear whether these missiles were neutralized by the Sukhois or fell short of the range and fell to the ground. Either way the missile parts recovered on this side of LOC were clearly AMRAAM and these were fooled by the Sukhois pilots....... good job done. The myth of AMRAAM has been shattered.

    ‘Still unanswered is - why preparation were not made to meet the retaliatory force with an equal force. Also what data that IAF has which has not been released which will confirm F-16 going down in flames.
     
  17. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    I do not think that nothing has changed. Things have certainly changed, We have purchased better BVRs from Russia. Astra MK1 order is given, Rafale has come in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
  18. Bleh

    Bleh Laughing member Senior Member

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    Not very factually correct as @Foxbat pointed out... But these two are concerning if true to any degree.
    There is a reputation of Russian radars to have trouble identifying actual targets from background clutter, I don't think the MICA thing is true.

    But 27th was definitely a stalemate skirmish, not any IAF victory despite much larger PAF package being repulsed with all 11 bombs missing.
    1. We cannot rub it on Paki faces like we do '71, but they throw "tea was fantastic" on us.
    2. IAF was not waiting with a trap of SAM, AWACS etc. for (inevitable) PAF retaliatory action!!!
    3. They managed to gain 5:1 local numerical superiority.
    4. Even after they broke peacetime ROE, IAF jets including the Mig-21, not shot BVRs!
    5. They magaged to jam our insecure comms and cut off Abhinandan.
    6. India failed to locate the F-16, but they quickly reacted by cooking up their own unconfirmed Su-30 kill.
    7. We meekly deescalated with no retaliation, despite their bombs targeting high officers and our better night fighting capability.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2020
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  19. sorcerer

    sorcerer Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

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    A lot has changed and SAP need to update .
    people who keep a watch on this domain understand how much has changed and how much more was procured in different weaponry after the incident..
     
  20. ezsasa

    ezsasa Senior Member Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Snehesh was just following his editors orders.

    If you watch “cut the clutter” of coupta two points he continuously harps on 1) economy is bad 2) defence is not prepared. These two points are in line with “useful idiots” agenda of keeping the citizens under informed and to lower the confidence among the masses.
     
  21. AbRaj

    AbRaj Regular Member

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    That is not satisfactory performance at all . We failed to achieve deterrence. They came and went without a loss. IAF looked almost helpless to prevent the intrusion despite knowing well in advance. Gafoora and Dimraan already gave clear threats of retaliation. You just cant sit behind your back after bombing your nuclear armed neighbour.
    Our Air defences proved incomplete and C&C performed poorely. We downed our owned Helo.
    Even that was not a big deal if we have retaliated. But No, we turned cold and let the badgereds celebrate.
    They proved to be on top of escalatory ladder at the end of day. We buckled down after giving threats of annihilation
     
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