Future Ready Combat Vehicle tender

[SELVAM]

Indian Army must induct arjun mk 2 tank in 1000 numbers. We should not import any russian tank now and we should develope arjun mk 3 tank around 55 tonne with auto loader with 3 man crew. I love arjun tank it is most advanced tank in the world and with better protection.

Just last year indian army placed 2 billion USD worth order for 400 odd t90 tanks with russians.

 

[sayareakd]

Just last year indian army placed 2 billion USD worth order for 400 odd t90 tanks with russians.

This tank is just upgraded T72 tank, even Russian Army is not ordering it, because of the Gulf war record.

Recently at Moscow tank competition we saw our T90s giving up, Russian and Chinese won easily. Imagine we are in war. These tanks just give up.

 

[aditya10r]

This tank is just upgraded T72 tank, even Russian Army is not ordering it, because of the Gulf war record.

Recently at Moscow tank competition we saw our T90s giving up, Russian and Chinese won easily. Imagine we are in war. These tanks just give up.

Sir why don't we use uranium depleted armour?????

__________________________________________

Or uranium depleted rounds???

Even Pakistan use ud rounds.

 

[SELVAM]

This tank is just upgraded T72 tank, even Russian Army is not ordering it, because of the Gulf war record.

Recently at Moscow tank competition we saw our T90s giving up, Russian and Chinese won easily. Imagine we are in war. These tanks just give up.

There is a criminal negligence or loot going in indian army procurement. All the time we hear is funds shortage and ammunition shortage. But silently indian army is giving billions worth deals to Russians and Israelis. most of these deals r big ticket purchases.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Why is MOD suicidal in the first place.
If there r bad apples in the MOD then they should be sacked.

Didn't we learn something from Kargil, we ran out of ammunition for artillery and had to beg African nations.
Defence should be kept as far away from politics as possible, parties like Khangress are just there to loot this country.

 

[Kshithij]

I hope from next year on wards Indian govt will increase defence budget to 60 billion dollars.

As I said, having budget without technology means we will be importing 20 billion dollars of that 60 billion dollars. We have to first develop our own technology and then manufacture en masse. Till we have technology like bharat pack, buying tanks must be slowly ordered. Till we have AESA KAVERI, Tejas production must be slowed down. So on...

Sir why don't we use uranium depleted armour?????

__________________________________________

Or uranium depleted rounds???

Even Pakistan use ud rounds.

Depleted uranium is heavy but not strong. It can't be used as armour. Depleted uranium bullets can replace lead but depleted uranium can't replace explosive rounds. Tanks and Artillery rounds are explosive ones tipped with directional explosive or anti infantry explosive

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

As I said, having budget without technology means we will be importing 20 billion dollars of that 60 billion dollars. We have to first develop our own technology and then manufacture en masse. Till we have technology like bharat pack, buying tanks must be slowly ordered. Till we have AESA KAVERI, Tejas production must be slowed down. So on...



Depleted uranium is heavy but not strong. It can't be used as armour. Depleted uranium bullets can replace lead but depleted uranium can't replace explosive rounds. Tanks and Artillery rounds are explosive ones tipped with directional explosive or anti infantry explosive

Depleted uranium encased in steel has been used as armor, since 1979 when it was introduced in the M1A1 HA package. DU has a brinell hardness comparable to tungsten, and it's heavy weight comes from the high density. High density, high hardness metals are the textbook definition of good armor materials. This same density and hardness also makes DU a good material for FSAPDS penetrator rods. Extra advantages for DU in this role are that DU is pyrophoric, meaning the dusts and chunks broken off the rod ignite, and unlike tungsten rods which mushroom out after passing through RHA, post-penetration DU rod tip outer portions burn away, while leaving the central section intact, which sharpens the tip. The metal itself isn't cheap which is why not every projectile down to rifle bullets use it as core.

 

[Kshithij]

Just last year indian army placed 2 billion USD worth order for 400 odd t90 tanks with russians.

That is a bad decision. It was ordered along with S400 and Kamov helicopter order. The S400 and Kamov 226T is understandable. I am not able to Understand the logic behind T90 acquisition

 

[Vinod DX9]

they are not selling T90AM, they are selling T90SM. Its export version, that means, less armor, less ammo penetration etc etc. Idea is that enemies of Russia dont get to see what the real tank Russians will have in war, thus they will not get undue advantage with export versions.

Sir, afaik, no compromise with armour as Kanchan Armour will be used not Russian one. Relikt will come or ERA-II unonown. But 2A48 sn't coming, but possibly an Indian version based on 2A46-5 will come. Only draw back will he f we still buy Mangos

 

[Vinod DX9]

And this is top view of T-90. ERAs are present .In Arjun too can give some coverage.

 

[sayareakd]

Sir why don't we use uranium depleted armour?????

__________________________________________

Or uranium depleted rounds???

Even Pakistan use ud rounds.

Its by product of nuke material but its dense, it caused nuclear contamination. Our tungsten rods are good.

 

[sayareakd]

View attachment 21580
And this is top view of T-90. ERAs are present .In Arjun too can give some coverage.

Its upgraded T72 with new gun, armor and new name, rest of the tank is 60%, T72m.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

View attachment 21580
And this is top view of T-90. ERAs are present .In Arjun too can give some coverage.

This photo is an excellent demonstration of the armor protection design of T-72/T-90 family. They are lower, shorter and lighter than western tanks like M1 or Leopard. But that comes at a cost of all-around armor protection. That is why Soviet/Russian designers concentrated the armor in a 60 degree cone towards the front. The turret front is very well armored with ERA and composites, but the sides and back are not. The sides are tapered toward the back so that they remain within the 60 degree cone. Hull ERAs is most dense in the upper glacis, and the front sides have 3 ERA modules attached to the skirt.

This is a very good tank for assaulting the enemy on open tank country, which is what was expected of the T-72 in western Europe. But the downside is, it's not very good on it's own when operating in urban environment, as demonstrated by the Syrian videos on youtube. An RPG-29 hit to the side hull from a destroyed building across the street will cook off the turret well mounted autoloader ammo, and fry the crew.

I would much prefer rolling into Lahore inside an Arjun MK2 equipped with TUSK kit.

 

[binayak95]

This photo is an excellent demonstration of the armor protection design of T-72/T-90 family. They are lower, shorter and lighter than western tanks like M1 or Leopard. But that comes at a cost of armor protection. That is why Soviet/Russian designers concentrated the armor in a 60 degree cone towards the front. The turret front is very well armored with ERA and composites, but the sides and back are not. The sides are tapered toward the back so that they remain within the 60 degree cone. Hull ERAs is most dense in the upper glacis, and the front sides have 3 ERA modules attached to the skirt.

This is a very good tank for assaulting the enemy on open tank country, which is what was expected of the T-72 in western Europe. But the downside is, it's not very good on it's own when operating in urban environment, as demonstrated by the Syrian videos on youtube. An RPG-29 hit to the side hull from a destroyed building across the street will cook off the turret well mounted autoloader ammo, and fry the crew.

I would much prefer rolling into Lahore inside an Arjun MK2 equipped with TUSK kit.

The Russians learned a bitter lesson from Op Barbarossa and then incorporated the lessons learned from the T34 and KV-1 family into the T-44.

The T-44

early model T-72s


The T-72/90 is just a descendant of the T-44. Low height, well armoured front turret and upper glacis, good speed and cross-country manoeuvrability. All features that are identical to the T-44.

The T-14 is the first radical redesign the Russians are trying. It is well worth a look. But I'd say continue creating newer marques of the Arjun series, the Armata is not worth it.

 

[Kshithij]

Depleted Uranium is too heavy and provides significantly less protection than steel of same weight. Depleted Uranium is dense and hence provides better protection per inch thickness. However, since the weight increases significantly (if 100kg if steel is needed, 150+ kg of DU is needed for same protection), Depleted uranium is bad for armour. The weight if tank may go up severely to 80-90 tons from 65-70 tons.

Depleted uranium alloy is definitely better penetrator and relatively cheaper than tungsten. Depleted Uranium costs only about 25% of Tungsten.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Depleted Uranium is too heavy and provides significantly less protection than steel of same weight. Depleted Uranium is dense and hence provides better protection per inch thickness. However, since the weight increases significantly (if 100kg if steel is needed, 150+ kg of DU is needed for same protection), Depleted uranium is bad for armour. The weight if tank may go up severely to 80-90 tons from 65-70 tons.

Depleted uranium alloy is definitely better penetrator and relatively cheaper than tungsten. Depleted Uranium costs only about 25% of Tungsten.

Well you have to compromise somewhere. Even 1970s vintage PG-7 RPG rocket penetrates >200mm steel, so if u want to survive, you have to use some sort of better-than-steel material. ERA, NERA, Composites work good against HEAT jets, but if you also want to protect against kinetic penetrator rods too, it's better to soften them up first against a Tungsten of DU plate. You could use heavy ERA like Kontakt or Relikt to do that like the Russians, but they are one time use, or you could also use complex and innovative composite armor arrays to enable all-aspect protection like the Israelis, but once hit, they can't maintain their structural integrity. The Abrams turret front has remained almost unchanged externally since the 1980s, cause the raw plate thickness and incremental updates to the internal composite arrays have been enough to defeat any present or emerging threat. In 2003 Iraq war, friendly Abrams had difficulty in destroying other disabled Abrams, even with their silver bullet DU round.

And both in the cases of Ammo or Armor, DU is indeed cheaper than Tungsten, but is still a strategic material, and the whole contamination controversy doesn't really help. So you kinda have to make your own, cause nobody will sell to you. For that you have to have a decent uranium processing industry, and above all, sufficient reserves under the ground.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

This is T-90 turret front after being hit. The ERA did it's job, and went out, it won't protect anymore.

On the left a destroyed Abrams with 60kg warhead AGM Maverick, on the right Merkava after being hit by Kornet

Abrams turret front after being hit by RPG

My point is, not considering weight, the raw strength of thicker armor plates can't be 100% replaced with special type of arrays. If your armored doctrine allows to have a 75 ton vehicle, and you have a sufficiently powerful engine to maintain power/weight ratio, the best way to increase protection is to use thicker plates of steel or some exotic metal.

 

[Kshithij]

Well you have to compromise somewhere. Even 1970s vintage PG-7 RPG rocket penetrates >200mm steel, so if u want to survive, you have to use some sort of better-than-steel material. ERA, NERA, Composites work good against HEAT jets, but if you also want to protect against kinetic penetrator rods too, it's better to soften them up first against a Tungsten of DU plate. You could use heavy ERA like Kontakt or Relikt to do that like the Russians, but they are one time use, or you could also use complex and innovative composite armor arrays to enable all-aspect protection like the Israelis, but once hit, they can't maintain their structural integrity. The Abrams turret front has remained almost unchanged externally since the 1980s, cause the raw plate thickness and incremental updates to the internal composite arrays have been enough to defeat any present or emerging threat. In 2003 Iraq war, friendly Abrams had difficulty in destroying other disabled Abrams, even with their silver bullet DU round.

And both in the cases of Ammo or Armor, DU is indeed cheaper than Tungsten, but is still a strategic material, and the whole contamination controversy doesn't really help. So you kinda have to make your own, cause nobody will sell to you. For that you have to have a decent uranium processing industry, and above all, sufficient reserves under the ground.

DU is non radioactive. It is a heavy metal and poisonous like Arsenic, Lead, mercury etc. It should not be inhaled as fine dusts or oxidised uranium smoke.

Abrams weigh 70 tons fully loaded. They are simply too big and thick from the front. They are, however unfit for himalayas or mountainous terrain of India. There is that problem we have - if the tank can't traverse, it is a waste and dead weight.

India has uranium reserves of over 2lakh tons. India is now extracting uranium heavily in Meghalaya, Tummalepalle, jharkhand etc. Some islamist agent tried to get the correct quantity by asking a question in parliament but was turned down by the government saying national security reasons.

So, the quantity of Uranium is also not a problem. India has several plutonium reprocessing plants and uranium enrichment plants. That can get depleted Uranium. DU is considered as a waste product

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Abrams weight is about 70 short tons. In other words it weighs 62-63 tons and less than Arjun Mk2. It lacks full frontal 60 degree ERA coverage as in Arjun mk2 but ERA is present in side hull and side turret in TUSK upgrade. Also it lacks mine-plough. Arjun mk 2 glassis has much better protection than M1A2. The so-called DU has high density but when it comes to armour protection things that matter are hardness, energy absorption capability and strain rate undergoing capability. This is where the Kanchan armour is a world beater.
In terms of electronics Arjun mk2 and M1A2 SEP seems comparable.

 

[Shaitan]

DG Mech Forces Lt Gen AB Shivane on FRCV Procurement

I attatched link of his video in article

Good enough.