France, Russia, and the Mistral Saga

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by youngindian, Aug 4, 2009.

  1. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Firm Truce in Ukraine Needed for Mistral Delivery to Russia: Paris

    Indeed. VolksWagen had to shut down its plant in Russia due to lack of demand. So, they made an investment, and now are not able to sell their cars, which would presumably have had German made components. Who is the bigger loser? This shutting down of the plan is indeed in the past tense. Just one example.

    Even this excerpt from one of the most rabid anti-Russia myth-peddling websites, the New York Trash, admits the following:
     
  2. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Re: Firm Truce in Ukraine Needed for Mistral Delivery to Russia: Paris

    Definitely Russia! As of now the Ruble is the worst performing currency in the World and inflation is double digits and rising. The Russian economy is on the verge of recession.

    These European companies are multinationals with operations spanning all the continents. Their Russia operations, no doubt profitable, will not bankrupt these companies. But as the Ruble slides Russians go out to buy foreign currencies and big ticket products.

    Shopping in Russia Just Got Really Weird - Businessweek
    Special Report: For many Russians, a growing list of problems – but not with Putin | Reuters

    The Western companies that will be adversely affected by the sanctions are those directly in the sectors under sanctions. But as I said they are not in any mortal danger. Instead, Russian factories of Western companies will close down as it will be very expensive for them to import their parts. They will simply relocate their productions to other countries and export their products to Russia (if they are not prohibited by sanctions).

    In the process of closing down factories in Russia, a lot of Russian workers employed by these companies will get laid off. If this is good to you then I don't what to make of your mind anymore...


    And you think this is good for Russia? Think again.
     
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  3. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    What is worrisome is that the unfair and very debilitating Treaty of Versailles saw a resurgent Germany that spurred the Second WW.

    Russians are equally jingoistic as the German, even though they may not be equally industrious as the German.

    Russia had become dependant on Europe. Now they will have to rely on their own guts and wits.

    The Russian Bear is a resurgent avatar is not quite a pleasant thought.

    While there possibly be no war as such since the MAD will prevail, but it could lead to a real bitterly cold Cold War.

    China will be the winner big time in all departments and that would lead greater woes for the West and others.

     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  4. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    I'm not too worried at the thought of a resurgent bear. There's not much of a resurgent bear judging from the turnout of the economic war from the Ukraine crisis (Putin is the emperor in his new clothes here). What we are seeing in Ukraine is the dying gasp of an empire that began its terminal decline after the collapse of the USSR. Putin is a victim of his own fantasy of grandeur. Now the real giant (West) has called his bluff.
     
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  5. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Russia was also a gasping empire before the Russian Revolution and who thought that such a downtrodden, poor country could become a superpower?

    Look at an agrarian, feudalism ridden, and poor China at one time and today?

    I never underestimate any country or people.
     
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  6. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Russia will never emulate China. It is too cold, far away, in a not so economically vibrant neighborhood, underpopulated, too drunk, power and money closely controlled by too few, and too corrupt.

    China became what it is now because the US was too willing to invest on it. I don;t see this happening to Russia.
     
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  7. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Did USSR become a superpower because US was willing then?
     
  8. apple

    apple Regular Member

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    Russia doesn't do recessions, it does economic meltdowns. Would disagree with you about the amount of damage the collapse of the Russian economy will do to Europe.

    The USSR was never all that to begin with. At least it wasn't near i.e. post 1980, the end.

    While a large part of Russia's economic important to Europe is Putin's cronies spending their ill gotten baksheesh in London, Paris and Milan, which wont be affected so much when Russia goes belly up, there are legitimate business links between Russia and the EU. Although, I suppose in the wider scheme of things, cheaper energy prices for Europe should balance (/or outweigh) loss of trade with Russia.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  9. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    The USSR became a superpower by expanding and annexing other countries (territories, people and resources of other countries). It also had a powerful ideology in communism on its rise to superpowerdom. Now Russia has neither satellites (or countries forcibly held under its sphere like POland, etc.) and ideology. It's population is decreasing and a lot of its young and talented people are migrating to other countries.
     
  10. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Now, the US is gradually approaching communism, so take heart, the US will become even a bigger superpower. I am sure my words are like honey to your ears. :lol:
     
  11. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    I doubt the US can be bigger superpower than it already is, but I think it will remain as a superpower for a long time to come. Russia on the other hand is in the death throes of its superpower status. Actually Russia lost that status the moment the USSR broke up (it used the USSR to increase its power), it is just in denial. It should do what UK did and admit its much reduced power and then sit on the shoulders of the current superpower by alliances to project a much bigger power than what it can muster on its own. No doubt it's going to be a humiliating climb down for a proud leader with emperor-complex like Putin (and his Worldwide rah-rah boys).
     
  12. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    It was just a rhetoric. Pay no mind if you took it seriously.
     
  13. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    FEAR AS A WEAPON
    THE EFFECTS OF PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE ON DOMESTIC AND INTERNATIONAL POLITICS


    Since antiquity, strategists have advised the use of propaganda and other psychological techniques to spread fear among the enemy in order to bring about his defeat. However, the methods to create and manipulate fear also involve terrorism (sometimes state-sponsored) and may target domestic populations in order to make them receptive or hostile to certain political or economic policies.

    Fear can be produced deliberately through a number of techniques. Creating fear is part of the little known area within military and strategic studies called ‘psychological warfare’. Psychological warfare (PSYWAR), is an unusual
    form of warfare, as it does not physically attack the target group, i.e. ‘the enemy’, in order to destroy them, but the minds of the target group, the psyche.
    http://iprd.org.uk/wp-content/plugi...re on Domestic and International Politics.pdf
     
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  14. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    I know it is difficult task for Russians, but they will manage. We Finns are more than happy to help in the process. Russia with realistic views of itself is much nicer neighbour than this current " living in dreams" is.
     
  15. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    I think Russian leadership plays a big part in Russian national psyche. As long as Russian leaders think of themselves as successors of the Czars and Russia entitled to its imperial dominion then majority (not all) Russians will continue to harbor unreasonable fairy tales of their national glory. This is always bad for the neighbors since Russia still has a formidable military (at least compared to its neighbors) and it seems it has no qualms to use it against its neighbors (never mind if for a long time they call their neighbors brothers).
     
  16. Prometheus

    Prometheus Regular Member

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    ofcourse its because of the Tasarist physche of the Russians, the US is such a peace loving country, it wouldn't EVER think of invading weak nations like Iraq, Libya, Vietnam , Korea, Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, Serbia...........let alone other nations which challange them, and are the sole choice of other weaker countries to buy defence eqpt to defend themselves
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  17. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    Here is a famous quote from our formed President Paasikivi.

    "The immutable Russian policy is to get whatever they can with the least possible effort, and then ask for more. They never sacrifice their immediate benefits for future goals. They never take into account what has been said, but what has been done. They try to exact a high price for anything that they understand they have to do in any case. They are immune to ethical, humanitarian and abstract juridical arguments, being affected only by practical and realistic points of view."
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
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  18. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    Quota from our current president:

    There is a Russian proverb which says: ”kazak berjot što ploha ležit” 'A Cossack will take whatever is not fixed to the ground'. It is worth taking heed of this household wisdom, which is doubtless based on experience. We must take care of issues and actively cherish the things we view as important. Failure to do so will have consequences. This is true of all aspects of life, from security to the economy/I]
     
  19. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    Quota from Mannerheim

    Heres one:
    "One foreigner who did obtain a private audience with Mannerheim during the January lull was the well-connected Sir Walter Citrine...With unusual candow, at one point in their conversation, Mannerheim told Citrine that he himself had been incredulous about early Russian casualty reports. Battles simply were not that one-sided, in his experience. When one division commander reported that his men had killed 1,000 Russian infantry in a single night, at Taipale, Mannerheim let it be known that he did not believe the figure. Two days later, a terse message came back from the division commander, stating that more than 1,000 Moisin rifles had been collected from the dead and inventoried, if the Marshal would care to come count them for himself. Mannerheim allowed himself a wintry smile as he told the story, adding thathe seldom questioned the casualty reports thereater. "I did not think that my men we so good, or that the Russians could be so bad.""
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  20. jouni

    jouni Senior Member Senior Member

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    Another quote from Paasikivi, president '46-'56

    Even at her state of weakness, Russia will always be too strong for us
     

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