F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
No, just no, you need to understand the differences between AESA and PESA first.
You're wrong.
It just take 2 hours to remove a PESA antenna for an AESA one.
It's not because USA didn't have made this before that it's impossible. Remember : Impossible is not french.

and, just between you and me, you are probably an educated people. So I am. I'm an electrical and mechanical engineer and highly graduate in business. So stop trying to explain your opponent is a fool or unbrain.
 

StealthFlanker

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
879
Likes
1,213
Country flag
Stop that Bro.
Fact is that F35 was studied for air to ground role.
It is designed to be a multirole aircraft just like F-16, F-18 ..etc unlike F-22 that was intended for air superiority only (almost).



There is nothing new under the sun about a so classical wing + tail config. F35 has not a radical more potent wing than F16. Just more loaded.
Again,
Mig-21, Mig-17, Mig-19, F-86, F-15, F-16, F-18, Mig-29, Su-27, Mig-25, Mig-31 , F-22, F-35 ....etc all uses the so called classical wing + tail configuration, does that mean they have the same lift coefficient or Cl/Cd ? absolutely not period. As explained before, even a slight change in wing sweep, wing thickness will change everything regarding lift. You can't deduce anything from wing loading alone period. Look at F-5E and F-16, they look very similar: single vertical tail, wing-tail configuration, LERXs and F-5 has lower wing loading, does that mean F-5 is agile than F-16? No.



You're wrong.
It just take 2 hours to remove a PESA antenna for an AESA one.
It's not because USA didn't have made this before that it's impossible. Remember : Impossible is not french.
Sigh...... it not about where you came from
In PESA there is single transmitter which amplifies RF signal coming from modulator. This signal (usually) is the directed via waveguide to phase shifters which form the radar beam. In reverse the signal goes first to phase shifters which form the receive beam and direct it to receiver via waveguide assembly. In AESA there is no single transmitter, waveguide or phase shifters. All that functionality is included in individual T/R modules. You don't just change the antenna only when you move from PESA to AESA.

just between you and me, you are probably an educated people. So I am. I'm an electrical and mechanical engineer and highly graduate in business. So stop trying to explain your opponent is a fool or unbrain.
I only do that because you keep repeating the same myth again, and again, even though i actually explained that before.
 
Last edited:

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
Sigh...... it not about where you came from
In PESA there is single transmitter which amplifies RF signal coming from modulator. This signal (usually) is the directed via waveguide to phase shifters which form the radar beam. In reverse the signal goes first to phase shifters which form the receive beam and direct it to receiver via waveguide assembly. In AESA there is no single transmitter, waveguide or phase shifters. All that functionality is included in individual T/R modules. You don't just change the antenna only when you move from PESA to AESA.
It only means that you understand "antenna" too strictly.
I know perfectly that a PESA used a single emitter (called TOP in french : "Tube à Ondes Progressives" but Can't find a traduction) when an AESA used roughly 1000 small T/R modules.

In the RBE2, all the rear part of the radar (processors for signal treatment, memory, power distribution, colling...) is the same for the two antennas.

Thales was perfectly aware during the RBE2 study that AESA was the futur, but a little bit immature (in europe) to use it immediatly. So the radar was from the drawing board studied to fit the two "antennas" (each antenna with all the necessary stuff to connect it to the back stage). All the technical provisions were made for that.
Now it only takes 2 hours to change of antenna. The back stage softwares immediatly recognise what king of antenna is fitted.
All the modes studied for PESA are used on AESA. The contrary is (or will) not (be) true.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
Again,
Mig-21, Mig-17, Mig-19, F-86, F-15, F-16, F-18, Mig-29, Su-27, Mig-25, Mig-31 , F-22, F-35 ....etc all uses the so called classical wing + tail configuration, does that mean they have the same lift coefficient or Cl/Cd ? absolutely not period. As explained before, even a slight change in wing sweep, wing thickness will change everything regarding lift. You can't deduce anything from wing loading alone period. Look at F-5E and F-16, they look very similar: single vertical tail, wing-tail configuration, LERXs and F-5 has lower wing loading, does that mean F-5 is agile than F-16? No.
Absolutely nothing new or special in F35.
A huge and sugar like frame,
A very classical wing form, without APEX, heavy loaded.

Remember the F16-30 vs F35 flight.... after 10 years of dev...
I DON'T BELIEVE THOSE SAYING THE FBW WAS NOT FULLY MATURE. After 2 years of dev it's understandable, not after 10 years. Never.
The flying enveloppe is among the first thing cleared.

upload_2018-7-5_14-50-59.jpeg
 

StealthFlanker

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
879
Likes
1,213
Country flag
It only means that you understand "antenna" too strictly.
In the RBE2, all the rear part of the radar (processors for signal treatment, memory, power distribution, colling...) is the same for the two antennas.
No, i don't understand the word "antenna" too strict, an antenna and a TWT and phase shifter are three completely different things. Your argument basically sound like
" There is very small difference between 911 GT3 RS and 996 Turbo because they only need to change the engines and furniture and some small aerodynamic"
And it's not why you are right.
Quantity of arguments is useless. Quality prior.
Oh yeah sure, keep telling yourself that
Because to you,apparently comments like "A huge and sugar like frame ", "it looks like a pig" are very high quality arguments compared to using data directly from flight manual and physics equations.
To be Frank, no one here is delusional enough to think your argument is of better quality.
Absolutely nothing new or special in F35.
A huge and sugar like frame,
A very classical wing form, without APEX, heavy loaded.
Once again, repeat nonsense doesn't make it true. As already explained, even a slight change in wing sweep, wing thickness, tapered ratio, wing shape will change the CL/alpha and Cd/alpha curve significantly. Not everything has to be obvious to the amateur eye to create a significant change to the aircraft
For example, from outside Mirage III/5 and Mirage 2000 looks very similar, same delta wing configuration, same single vertical tail, same single engine design, same cone inlet


if anyone was to use your kind of logic, they would have expected the two aircraft to have the same or similar agility, and just like you, they couldn't be more wrong.

At 15000 ft, instantaneous turn rate of Mirage III peaked at 15 deg/second whereas the instantaneous turn rate of Mirage 2000 peaked nearly 24 deg/second. The difference of 9 deg/second or in other words, ITR of Mirage 2000 is 60% superior to Mirage III.
Sustained turn rate of Mirage III at the same altitude peaked at 9 deg/second whereas the sustained turn rate of Mirage 2000 peaked at near 12.5 deg/second. The difference of 3.5 deg/second, or in other words, STR of Mirage 2000 is roughly 38.8% superior to Mirage III.
But yeah sure, keep telling yourself that there is nothing new on F-35 compared to F-16 or F-18

Remember the F16-30 vs F35 flight.... after 10 years of dev...
It doesn't matter what they believe, it literally is written in the report that the test was to examine F-35 behavior at extreme elevated AoA and therefore make the change to flight control

The flying enveloppe is among the first thing cleared.
Nope.
 
Last edited:

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
No, i don't understand the word "antenna" too strict, an antenna and a TWT and phase shifter are three completely different things. Your argument basically sound like
Think what you want.
PESA antenna and AESA one can be changed within 2 hours. You don't understand it? No problem. You don't believe it? I don't care.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
For example, from outside Mirage III/5 and Mirage 2000 looks very similar, same delta wing configuration, same single vertical tail, same single engine design, same cone inlet
Between the two : composite++ / FBW / T/W ratio ++.

What' s new in the F35 wing arrangement? (it was THE question). ouhhhh..... euh.... Nothing.
 

StealthFlanker

New Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2016
Messages
879
Likes
1,213
Country flag
Think what you want.
PESA antenna and AESA one can be changed within 2 hours. You don't understand it? No problem. You don't believe it? I don't care.
Unfortunately, there are many difference between AESA and PESA than just the antenna, regardless of how much time you think it took to change the antenna.

Between the two : composite++ / FBW / T/W ratio ++.
Nice try but composite is material composition and have nothing to do with either STR or ITR, there is also alot more composite on F-35 than F-16, T/W ratio doesn't affect ITR at all, only answer that even remotely close is FBW but again, it is not obvious at the outside and F-35,F-16 doesn't have the same FBW software either.

What' s new in the F35 wing arrangement? (it was THE question). ouhhhh..... euh.... Nothing
*Using your own kind of reply
F-35 has more composite, F-35 has better FBW:scared2:
But seriously, there are so many differences between F-16 and F-35 that only a blind man can't see that.
_ They literally use difference kind of wings with different sweep thickness and tapered ratio

_ F-35 has two vertical stabilizer instead of single vertical stabilizer like F-16 so its isn't AoA limited like F-16 and can reach its CLmax
_ F-35 uses side inlet instead of belly inlet, so that will add to body lift area

NO. F35 is beaten by F35 in WRV. It's sad, but it's true.
Not nearly as sad as the fact Rafale were beaten by F-4 in Frisian flag
 
Last edited:

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
Unfortunately, there are many difference between AESA and PESA than just the antenna, regardless of how much time you think it took to change the antenna.
This radar was developped so as to fit the two mode. It's was genius idea, so as to capitalize on the experience of the first gen antenna.
The PESA "antenna" include for exemple the TOP, not the AESA of course. All the back part of the radar, probably the costlier one, is common.

It's sure that between a radar delivered in 1999 and another in 2018, the computing power is not the same. Same can be said about the EMTI processing units, always improved.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
Nice try but composite is material composition and have nothing to do with either STR or ITR
Sorry my dear, but NO.
A lighter plane, thanks to composite or better T/W ratio of the engine (a Mirage 2000 M53 engine has the same weight than ATAR 9 of the Mirage 3 but with roughly 30% more thrust) help to improve ITR but mainly STR.
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
_ F-35 has two vertical stabilizer instead of single vertical stabilizer like F-16 so its isn't AoA limited like F-16 and can reach its CLmax
LOL.
What is the use of the F16 LERX ? To energize the flow up the wing so as to keep the tail active.

F35 is a medium dog fighter versus 40 years old F16. It's not because it makes nice peddal turns that it is impressive in real air combat (what is the use of peddal turn in air combat?)
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
Unfortunately, there are many difference between AESA and PESA than just the antenna, regardless of how much time you think it took to change the antenna.
"Plug and play capacity".

"The new antenna just need a new nose cone, that includes the 1000+/- E/R modules."
"That new antenna is just 20kg heavier than PESA one."
"For the plane the new antenna is transparent. Just when it is switch ON, it recognise the new antenna and run as AESA one."

And vice versa.



Capture RBE2AESA.PNG

http://omnirole-rafale.com/rbe2/
 

BON PLAN

-*-
New Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2015
Messages
6,510
Likes
7,217
Country flag
Government highlights perilous state of UK defence aviation programmes

http://www.janes.com/article/81576/...ilous-state-of-uk-defence-aviation-programmes

The Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) were rated Amber/Red (successful delivery of the project is in doubt, with major risks or issues apparent in a number of key areas. Urgent action is needed to address these problems and/or assess whether resolution is feasible).
 

Articles

Top