F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

BON PLAN

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At this rate, F 35 will only mature by 2027-2030. Still, one can't deny that it would be a great asset to have in a war, in combination with 4.5th gen aircraft.
in 2014, a french forumer who has worked for Dassault, Airbus, Astrium.... said with some explanations that F35 will be FOC in 2031. Since 2014 things are not running better and better for F35.
This is what he wrote (in french. Use Google translate)

http://www.45enord.ca/2014/05/le-logiciel-du-f-35/
 

BON PLAN

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Lol F-35 had been flying in and around the s-400 already for a while, the US just doesn't want the F-35 and S-400 to be operated by a duplicitous nation like Turkey which also happens to be a NATO member, also a pestilence on good days. S-400 is threat for smaller AFs but not the USAF which has dozens of ways to defeat it. As for IR, TV and other signatures that the Russians want to gather, you're a bigger dufus if you think Russians don't already have this for a decade. It's the radar signature that matters most and that remains a closely guarded secret.
USAF and USN had dozens ways to defeat Vietnam SAM.... with a lot of loss.

Never under estimate russian SAM !
 

asianobserve

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USAF and USN had dozens ways to defeat Vietnam SAM.... with a lot of loss.

Never under estimate russian SAM !
That was the infancy of SEAD. Before Vietnam nobody, not even the USAF, USN or USMC ever faced an integrated AD.

What is worst is that France lost several battles and its war in Vietnam despite the North Vietnamese not yet having an integrated AD. The Americans on the other never lost a battle but they lost the war in Vietnam since the North Vietnamese were throwing waves upon waves of North Vietnamese and Vietcongs to American and South Vietnam positions that while it was a massscre on North Vietnam's part still the American losses and daily videos of dead c9mbatants and civilians sickened the American public resulting in massive anti-Vietnam war backlash. American politicians have to relent.

Interestingly, the Americans did not realize that for the North Vietnamese it was not really about Communism or against America although they wanted to kick their French colonialists out - they just want independence - for them it was about indepence. Ho Chi Minh was fond of America and the Americans through OSS and later CIA supported Ho during WW2 and even after WW2. But when the Americans were forced to choose between Ho and the French, America had no choice but to choose the Frenchies (who have no sense of gratitude for De Gaulle would stab America in the back just becsuse America opposed French and British plan to steal the Suez canal).
 

BON PLAN

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That was the infancy of SEAD. Before Vietnam nobody, not even the USAF, USN or USMC ever faced an integrated AD.

What is worst is that France lost several battles and its war in Vietnam despite the North Vietnamese not yet having an integrated AD. The Americans on the other never lost a battle but they lost the war in Vietnam since the North Vietnamese were throwing waves upon waves of North Vietnamese and Vietcongs to American and South Vietnam positions that while it was a massscre on North Vietnam's part still the American losses and daily videos of dead c9mbatants and civilians sickened the American public resulting in massive anti-Vietnam war backlash. American politicians have to relent.

Interestingly, the Americans did not realize that for the North Vietnamese it was not really about Communism or against America although they wanted to kick their French colonialists out - they just want independence - for them it was about indepence. Ho Chi Minh was fond of America and the Americans through OSS and later CIA supported Ho during WW2 and even after WW2. But when the Americans were forced to choose between Ho and the French, America had no choice but to choose the Frenchies (who have no sense of gratitude for De Gaulle would stab America in the back just becsuse America opposed French and British plan to steal the Suez canal).
Thank you for the lesson of history, but the subject was F35 and russian SAM !
 

Alfalfa

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@BON PLAN
No but Frenchie, why dont you throw some light on history and tell us. Why are you Frenchies like this? Sell anything to anyone, you lot would sell your grand mother after slapping some lipstick on her if some Arab paid 2 pennies for her... Agosta's to Pakistan (added the nifty Exocet too), then Scorpenes to India... Mirage Vs to Pakistan then Mirage 2K to us, Frenchies only care about Money. Heck you even sold reactors to f@#king Iraq.. I bet if uncle Xi showed up with enough Dorrar you would sell him as many Rafales as they need.. Even the Engine ToT

Mods please feel free to delete, I knows its off topic... but I really want to know
 

IndianHawk

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Oh man, if it's only photo of F-35s that Russians want tge don't need Tu-142. They just attend airshows take photos all they can from static displays and from aerial demos of F-35s. Theu can use all kinds of camera including IR.

But what will the Russians learn from it? Nothing. The most important thing in fighters especially the F-35, are their radar signatures and electronic emmissions. You won't get these data from pictures.

You cannot get the radar profile of F-35 simply by analyzing photos or making a 3D model out of these photos. The F-35 uses not only shaping to evade radar, it uses exotic skin coating, EW, decoys, etc. In the IR spectrum it uses elaborate fuselage cooling, exhaust IR mitigation, etc.

Re, S-400. It's not a real threat to F-35. Even F-16, SH and F-15s operating with Growlers, MALD swarm, JASSM or AARGM can defeat it. Mix in B-2, F-22 and F-35 the no AD system will survive a full on onslaught by US and NATO air forces.

The only reason US has been targetting S-400 is to disrupt Russia's strategic political msneuvers. USAF and the Israeli Air Force have been flying in and out of Syria where Russian S-400 is active. So, sorry to burst your bubble.
Huh ? How did USA evade Russian manuver by forsaking order of 100 f35 and removing turkey from production( which imposed both costs and delays on f35) ?

What kind of logic is this?

The fact is this USA is shit scared having f35 anywhere near a s400 class system.

BTW it's not just photo capturing it is maping by most sophisticated military instrument both active and passive. A flying f35 at afterburner (it can't supercruise) can't suppress thermal signature above a small degree. Similarly stealth coating can be gauged by detailed maping of surface . Other countries have stealth coatings too reasonable assertion can be made looking at thickness of coat.

Ew signature suppression doesn't work against passive sensor hence Russian are forcing f35 to fly much closer to tu142.

How do you think Americans gather data about su57 or j20 rcs? Or do you believe USA can't acertain stealth level of it's adversaries?

Like I said before these are critical questions not to be answered with such naive confidence.

The only fact we have is that USA would rather forsake a 10-15 billion USD contract with a decades old NATO Ally just so it won't have to operate f35 near a s400. Make of it what you will . My last on this topic .
 

IndianHawk

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Lol F-35 had been flying in and around the s-400 already for a while, the US just doesn't want the F-35 and S-400 to be operated by a duplicitous nation like Turkey which also happens to be a NATO member, also a pestilence on good days. S-400 is threat for smaller AFs but not the USAF which has dozens of ways to defeat it. As for IR, TV and other signatures that the Russians want to gather, you're a bigger dufus if you think Russians don't already have this for a decade. It's the radar signature that matters most and that remains a closely guarded secret.
Lol if USA didn't wanted turkey to use f35 why would include turkey in production program and allow turkey to produce sub components for years while training Turkish pilots to fly f35 in USA. lol
Explain that first. Lol.
 

IndianHawk

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That was the infancy of SEAD. Before Vietnam nobody, not even the USAF, USN or USMC ever faced an integrated AD.
And to this day usaf hasn't fought a war with a peer adversary . So we don't really know how effective is sead is against systems deployed by Russia in last 4-5 years.
 

asianobserve

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Huh ? How did USA evade Russian manuver by forsaking order of 100 f35 and removing turkey from production( which imposed both costs and delays on f35) ?

What kind of logic is this?

The fact is this USA is shit scared having f35 anywhere near a s400 class system.

BTW it's not just photo capturing it is maping by most sophisticated military instrument both active and passive. A flying f35 at afterburner (it can't supercruise) can't suppress thermal signature above a small degree. Similarly stealth coating can be gauged by detailed maping of surface . Other countries have stealth coatings too reasonable assertion can be made looking at thickness of coat.

Ew signature suppression doesn't work against passive sensor hence Russian are forcing f35 to fly much closer to tu142.

How do you think Americans gather data about su57 or j20 rcs? Or do you believe USA can't acertain stealth level of it's adversaries?

Like I said before these are critical questions not to be answered with such naive confidence.

The only fact we have is that USA would rather forsake a 10-15 billion USD contract with a decades old NATO Ally just so it won't have to operate f35 near a s400. Make of it what you will . My last on this topic .
The US does not like Russia entering into strstegic relations with countries US deem necessary to it by ourchasing S-400s. In the case of Turkey, the US simply cannot trust Erdogan that he will not expose F-35s naked to S-400 radar.

Do you know that 60 yesrs ago USAF already has fuel additive known as A-50 that musks afterburner radar signature in A-12 (predecessor of SR-72) in what is known as plasma stealth? This fuel additives can easily be repurposed for F-35s. But the US very rarely used this additive so as not to provide the Soviets any idea of its existence.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...d-plasma-stealth-by-burning-cesium-laced-fuel
 

IndianHawk

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The US does not like Russia entering into strstegic relations with countries US deem necessary to it by ourchasing S-400s. In the case of Turkey, the US simply cannot trust Erdogan that he will not expose F-35s naked to S-400 radar.

Do you know that 60 yesrs ago USAF already has fuel additive known as A-50 that musks afterburner radar signature in A-12 (predecessor of SR-72) in what is known as plasma stealth? This fuel additives can easily be repurposed for F-35s. But the US very rarely used this additive so as not to provide the Soviets any idea of its existence.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...d-plasma-stealth-by-burning-cesium-laced-fuel
I'm aware of the tech. Now let me again educate you why it never went mainstream. Because to sustain plasma cover is a maintainance nightmare. A lot of tech makes experimental / limited debut but never is useful for any practical purposes.

F35 is already maintenance intensive adding such impractical measure will just render it ground plane rather than flying one.

Btw plasma stealth has already made comeback with hypersonic missiles. Which could actually sustain such temperature as they won't be reused.

And once just having a lurenburg lens doesn't cover up f35. If that worked wouldn't other 4 gen plane would reduce their rcs by same degrees?? Like I said before critical thinking is missing. F35 is a good solution. Mass production makes it even better but it's not the panacea.

Also if USA can't trust turkey with Russian spys how it trust that Italian won't open f35 for China? Italy is more dependent on China then turkey will ever be on Russia? Another critical question.
 

asianobserve

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I'm aware of the tech. Now let me again educate you why it never went mainstream. Because to sustain plasma cover is a maintainance nightmare. A lot of tech makes experimental / limited debut but never is useful for any practical purposes.

F35 is already maintenance intensive adding such impractical measure will just render it ground plane rather than flying one.

Btw plasma stealth has already made comeback with hypersonic missiles. Which could actually sustain such temperature as they won't be reused.

And once just having a lurenburg lens doesn't cover up f35. If that worked wouldn't other 4 gen plane would reduce their rcs by same degrees?? Like I said before critical thinking is missing. F35 is a good solution. Mass production makes it even better but it's not the panacea.

Also if USA can't trust turkey with Russian spys how it trust that Italian won't open f35 for China? Italy is more dependent on China then turkey will ever be on Russia? Another critical question.
It's only a fuel additive. 9nce added to fuel it can sustain plasma stealth as long as there is fuel. Until this date its usage in A-12 and SR-71 is classified but there are stories that USAF used it only a few time so as to keep it out of Soviet's knowledge (it was reserved for wartime use not peacetime recon) and A-50 additive was poisonous.
 

Immanuel

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Lol if USA didn't wanted turkey to use f35 why would include turkey in production program and allow turkey to produce sub components for years while training Turkish pilots to fly f35 in USA. lol
Explain that first. Lol.
Turkey used be a reliable partner to the US till Edr-Ho came along. They increasingly got the pig headed syndrome

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...s-to-be-eliminated-from-f-35-program-in-2020/

They have been kicked out and the supply chain is dying too. They were making parts like fuselage assemblies, landing gear etc. Nothing critical. The pilots landed didn't get to complete their training which only began in 2018.

https://www.defensenews.com/digital...eed-despite-pause-for-turkeys-student-pilots/

They didn't get much of a look since they hadn't reached the stage of training where classified information on the aircraft is provided.
 

BON PLAN

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@BON PLAN
No but Frenchie, why dont you throw some light on history and tell us. Why are you Frenchies like this? Sell anything to anyone, you lot would sell your grand mother after slapping some lipstick on her if some Arab paid 2 pennies for her... Agosta's to Pakistan (added the nifty Exocet too), then Scorpenes to India... Mirage Vs to Pakistan then Mirage 2K to us, Frenchies only care about Money. Heck you even sold reactors to f@#king Iraq.. I bet if uncle Xi showed up with enough Dorrar you would sell him as many Rafales as they need.. Even the Engine ToT

Mods please feel free to delete, I knows its off topic... but I really want to know
- Exocet : is it the Argentinian exocet your query ? If yes, we stopped the delivery as soon as GB gone to war and gave them some info about how to counter it electronically. If not, 50% of the english fleet would have sunk.
- Agosta was selled in 1994.... I agree it was not the best decision ever. And Agosta was even then a old design, when Scorpene is a up to date design.
- Mirage V : prehistoric deal my dear. First plane delivered in 1968. Mirage 2000 inked with India far later. And we did all the possible to help integrating israeli LGB that prove usefull during Kargil.
- Mirage 2000 : China wanted to order some units. We refused. As Pak wanted some few years ago to order RC400 radar and MICA missiles. We refused.
- Engine ToT : what is the question ?

I hope you ask same questions to US patriots about F21 / F16 .... and about the non retaliation for housing Ben Laden for years....
 

StealthFlanker

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The US does not like Russia entering into strstegic relations with countries US deem necessary to it by ourchasing S-400s. In the case of Turkey, the US simply cannot trust Erdogan that he will not expose F-35s naked to S-400 radar.

Do you know that 60 yesrs ago USAF already has fuel additive known as A-50 that musks afterburner radar signature in A-12 (predecessor of SR-72) in what is known as plasma stealth? This fuel additives can easily be repurposed for F-35s. But the US very rarely used this additive so as not to provide the Soviets any idea of its existence.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...d-plasma-stealth-by-burning-cesium-laced-fuel
I'm aware of the tech. Now let me again educate you why it never went mainstream. Because to sustain plasma cover is a maintainance nightmare. A lot of tech makes experimental / limited debut but never is useful for any practical purposes.

F35 is already maintenance intensive adding such impractical measure will just render it ground plane rather than flying one.
cesium fuel isn't the only attempt at plasma stealth on SR-71, it was also tested with an ionizer "gun" to generated an electron cloud to reduce radar reflections in KEMPSTER A program




Btw plasma stealth has already made comeback with hypersonic missiles. Which could actually sustain such temperature as they won't be reused.
Plasma stealth won't come back, it wasn't even all that effective in the first place.
One common myth that often get repeated when people talk about plasma stealth is the idea that the plasma sheath will absorb all radar frequency, but that can't be any further from the truth. Plasma cloud always have a frequency that depends on temperature, you can estimate the plasma frequency with this table


if you only look at that table, the common assumption is that the temperature (also higher the frequency) the better, but that is also incorrect

"The use of plasmas to control the reflected electromagnetic radiation from an object (Plasma stealth) is feasible at suitable frequency where the conductivity of the plasma allows it to interact strongly with the incoming radio wave, and the wave can either be absorbed and converted into thermal energy, or reflected, or transmitted depending on the relationship between the radio wave frequency and the characteristic plasma frequency. If the frequency of the radio wave is lower than the plasma frequency, it is reflected. if it is higher, it is transmitted. If these two are equal, then resonance occurs."
https://www.researchgate.net/public...IPULATION_OF_RADAR_CROSS_SECTIONS_WITH_PLASMA
To make it easier:
let say the plasma frequency of your plasma sheath is 8 GHz
If the incoming radar or communication wave is 7 GHz, it is reflected
If the incoming radar or communication wave is 8 GHz, it is absorbed
If the incoming radar or communication wave is 9 GHz, it goes through the plasma sheath
In others words, plasma sheath can reduces your RCS in some frequency and increase it significantly at some frequency




And once just having a lurenburg lens doesn't cover up f35. If that worked wouldn't other 4 gen plane would reduce their rcs by same degrees?? Like I said before critical thinking is missing. F35 is a good solution. Mass production makes it even better but it's not the panacea.

Also if USA can't trust turkey with Russian spys how it trust that Italian won't open f35 for China? Italy is more dependent on China then turkey will ever be on Russia? Another critical question.
Luneberg lens are generally a corner reflector used to increase your RCS. You can't make your RCS smaller with it. There are many parts of stealth design that is impossible to see from outside regardless what kind of camera you use, for example, the internal edge treatment to minimize edge scattering


 

StealthFlanker

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BTW it's not just photo capturing it is maping by most sophisticated military instrument both active and passive. A flying f35 at afterburner (it can't supercruise) can't suppress thermal signature above a small degree
It can, for the airframe you can have the IR coating reduce the emissivity by 80-90% or simply shift the IR radiation into wavelength that can be absorbed more by the atmosphere



For the exhaust, serrated nozzle can reduce the exhaust signature
 

Alfalfa

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- Exocet : is it the Argentinian exocet your query ? If yes, we stopped the delivery as soon as GB gone to war and gave them some info about how to counter it electronically. If not, 50% of the english fleet would have sunk.
- Agosta was selled in 1994.... I agree it was not the best decision ever. And Agosta was even then a old design, when Scorpene is a up to date design.
- Mirage V : prehistoric deal my dear. First plane delivered in 1968. Mirage 2000 inked with India far later. And we did all the possible to help integrating israeli LGB that prove usefull during Kargil.
- Mirage 2000 : China wanted to order some units. We refused. As Pak wanted some few years ago to order RC400 radar and MICA missiles. We refused.
- Engine ToT : what is the question ?

I hope you ask same questions to US patriots about F21 / F16 .... and about the non retaliation for housing Ben Laden for years....
Point taken on most things you said but what i meant with the Exocet missile is that, the PNS Agosta subs are armed with SM39
 

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