F-35 Joint Strike Fighter

asianobserve

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US is lacking behind hypersonic missiles it is reported by many newspapers and their program got sanctioned in 2018 . but still they will develop it very fast due to advancements in metallurgy and they were the first to test scramjet.
There are a lot of things we do not know about top secret military programs like US hypersonic programs. But what we know is that the US has been for decades studying this weapons system. So I would not say that the US is behind Russia or China.
Dude don't continue to repeat BS even after you have been proven wrong repeatedly. US being more advanced doesn't simple means that they are better than Russia at everything. That is just a stupid analogy.

And just to educate you, US used to have a supersonic AShM project called LRASM-B similar to brahmos, which was cancelled in 2012. So its not like they never felt the need for supersonic AShM or they never tried it. They still don't have it, period.

The fact is that they cancelled the supersonic LRASM and went back to high subsonic speed for the final LRASM. Still the focus is on stealth.
 

asianobserve

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Currently, US does have operational supersonic AShm:
SM-2, ESSM, Sea Sparrow and SM-6 all have surface to surface mode so they can all be used against ship if need to be. This is possible because they are SARH and Command guide so they can pretty much attack whatever the ship illuminate. As a result, practically speaking, US does have Mach 4 anti ship missile in all their destroyers. The only limitation is their smaller warhead but that can be mitigated by their number.

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/sm-6


http://navyrecognition.com/index.ph...er-successfully-intercepts-aerial-target.html


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Muavenet_(DM_357)

From the air, they currently have AARGM which can also be used against ship thanks to its MMW radar and anti radiation seeker and 2 way data link.



https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/aargm.htm

While its true that SM-2, ESSM, Sea Sparrow and SM-6 can act as AShMs but these missiles are primarily intended as anti aircraft, anti-AShM and anti-ballistic missiles (not all with these capabilities). Their ASh capabilities are merely secondary. They are not particularly effective against large ships even of Frigate type.

AARGM also has a small warhead. But would be more effective against even destroyers as it targets radars thus blinding and disabling enemy ships.
 

Bhurki

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For example, in this post, the statement that LRASM B was found to be inferior to the A variant is something made up by you and I bet you won't be able to prove it. Carry on.
Supersonic approaches by missiles just like fighter jets have lower control authority than subsonic weapons.
Here's the turn rate characteristics for F16 for example -
images (4).jpeg


The same goes for missiles too, but to a greater degree since the wing load is a lot higher.
While supersonic weapons reduce time for reaction by defender, they also have reduced capability against decoys.

If they cancelled the B variant to choose a subsonic missile, what does that tell you...
 

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When US Navy and Marine F-35 pilots most need performance, the aircraft becomes erratic
By: David B. Larter   June 12, 2019

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Navy’s and Marine Corps’ F-35s become unpredictable to handle when executing the kind of extreme maneuvers a pilot would use in a dogfight or while avoiding a missile, according to documents exclusively obtained by Defense News.

Specifically, the Marine short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing variant and the Navy’s carrier-launched version become difficult to control when the aircraft is operating above a 20-degree angle of attack, which is the angle created by the oncoming air and the leading edge of the wing.

Pilots reported the aircraft experiencing unpredictable changes in pitch, as well as erratic yaw and rolling motions. The documents identify the issue as a category 1 deficiency and define it as something that limits the aircraft’s performance in such a way that it can’t accomplish its “primary or alternate mission(s).” In this scale, category 1 represents the most serious type of deficiency.

A Lockheed Martin executive told Defense News in a statement that he expects the issue to be resolved or downgraded soon as a result of software fixes.

“We’ve implemented an update to the flight control system that is planned for integration in the third quarter of this year — and we expect this item to be resolved or downgraded,” said Greg Ulmer, Lockheed Martin vice president and general manager of the company’s F-35 program.
The Pentagon’s F-35 program office did not respond to written questions from Defense News by press time, despite repeated follow-ups over a period of months.

In a deficiency report from the fleet, aviators said the issue "will cause modal confusion, prevent precise lift vector control, and prevent repeatable air-to-air combat techniques, resulting in mid-air collisions during training, controlled flight into terrain, and aircraft loss during combat engagements with adversary aircraft and missiles," according to the documents.

“Fleet pilots agreed it is very difficult to max perform the aircraft” in those circumstances, the document notes. The U.S. Navy and Marine Corps as well as the United Kingdom have noted the deficiency as a leading priority.

The fleet will, in the near term, mitigate the issue by enforcing minimum separation rules between aircraft in flight, the documents said.

‘That ain’t working’

A retired Navy fighter pilot who reviewed the documents for Defense News said the ability to maneuver the aircraft above a 20-degree angle of attack is important if the aircraft needs to quickly maneuver to avoid a missile or during aerial combat with another aircraft.

“You’re telling me that the latest, greatest, $100 million aircraft can’t perform?” the aviator said.

The issue, if left unresolved, would dovetail in the worst way when combined with another issue reported by Defense News: At extremely high altitudes, the Navy and Marine Corps versions of the F-35 can only fly at supersonic speeds for short bursts of time without risking structural damage and loss of its stealth capability, a problem that may make it impossible for the Navy’s F-35C to conduct supersonic intercepts.

“It has random oscillations, pitch and yaw issues above [its] 20-[degree angle of attack]," the aviator said. "[So] if I had to perform the aircraft — if I had to maneuver to defeat a missile, maneuver to fight another aircraft, the plane could have issues moving. And if I turn around aggressively and get away from these guys and use the afterburner, [the horizontal tail and tail boom] start to melt or have issues.”

The issue with control above 20-degrees AOA gets to one of the main debates about the aircraft: What if it needed to get into a dogfight? The F-35 is supposed to detect and kill its prey at range with missiles — either its own or from another platform in the network. But history has taught naval aviation that ignoring the possibility of close combat with another aircraft can prove deadly.

“This was not designed as a [traditional] fighter,” said Jerry Hendrix, a retired naval flight officer and analyst with Telemus Group. “This was meant to fight at distance with missiles. If you got in close, if you had to go to guns, that ain’t working.”

In a statement addressing a broad range of issues reported exclusively by Defense News, Ulmer, the Lockheed executive, defended the performance of the jet.

“The F-35s today are meeting or exceeding performance specifications and delivering unprecedented capability and safety compared to legacy fighter aircraft. These issues are important to address, and each is well understood, resolved or on a path to resolution," Ulmer said. “We’ve worked collaboratively with our customers and we are fully confident in the F-35’s performance and the solutions in place to address each of the items identified.”

An active-duty naval aviator who reviewed the documents for Defense News said the issues are reflective of an aircraft that packed in a lot of new technology, adding that, historically, all new jets have had problems.

“That document looks like growing pains for an aircraft that we tried to do a whole lot to all at once,” the aviator said. “You’re going to see that if you dig back at what Super Hornets looked like for the first few years. Go back in the archives and look at Tomcat — think about that with the variable sweep-wing geometry, the AWG-9 Radar.

"There was a lot of new technology incorporated into the aircraft, and there are always going to be growing pains.”

Valerie Insinna in Washington contributed to this report.
 

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Russia detected 6 F-35 jets near borders of Iran after attack on US base: Lavrov

https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...rders-of-iran-after-attack-on-us-base-lavrov/

Citing Lavrov’s statement, the aviation publication Avia.Pro reported that the Russian Foreign Minister claimed his country’s armed forces were able to track the presence of the F-35 jets because of their air defense systems in the Middle East region.


“At that time, there were at least six F-35s in the air, on the border, near Iranian airspace. This information still requires rechecking, but emphasizes the whole nervousness of the situation,” Lavrov said.
 

asianobserve

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When US Navy and Marine F-35 pilots most need performance, the aircraft becomes erratic
By: David B. Larter   June 12, 2019

WASHINGTON — The U.S. Navy’s and Marine Corps’ F-35s become unpredictable to handle when executing the kind of extreme maneuvers a pilot would use in a dogfight or while avoiding a missile, according to documents exclusively obtained by Defense News.

Specifically, the Marine short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing variant and the Navy’s carrier-launched version become difficult to control when the aircraft is operating above a 20-degree angle of attack, which is the angle created by the oncoming air and the leading edge of the wing.

Pilots reported the aircraft experiencing unpredictable changes in pitch, as well as erratic yaw and rolling motions. The documents identify the issue as a category 1 deficiency and define it as something that limits the aircraft’s performance in such a way that it can’t accomplish its “primary or alternate mission(s).” In this scale, category 1 represents the most serious type of deficiency.

A Lockheed Martin executive told Defense News in a statement that he expects the issue to be resolved or downgraded soon as a result of software fixes.

“We’ve implemented an update to the flight control system that is planned for integration in the third quarter of this year — and we expect this item to be resolved or downgraded,” said Greg Ulmer, Lockheed Martin vice president and general manager of the company’s F-35 program.
The Pentagon’s F-35 program office did not respond to written questions from Defense News by press time, despite repeated follow-ups over a period of months.

In a deficiency report from the fleet, aviators said the issue "will cause modal confusion, prevent precise lift vector control, and prevent repeatable air-to-air combat techniques, resulting in mid-air collisions during training, controlled flight into terrain, and aircraft loss during combat engagements with adversary aircraft and missiles," according to the documents.

“Fleet pilots agreed it is very difficult to max perform the aircraft” in those circumstances, the document notes. The U.S. Navy and Marine Corps as well as the United Kingdom have noted the deficiency as a leading priority.

The fleet will, in the near term, mitigate the issue by enforcing minimum separation rules between aircraft in flight, the documents said.

‘That ain’t working’

A retired Navy fighter pilot who reviewed the documents for Defense News said the ability to maneuver the aircraft above a 20-degree angle of attack is important if the aircraft needs to quickly maneuver to avoid a missile or during aerial combat with another aircraft.

“You’re telling me that the latest, greatest, $100 million aircraft can’t perform?” the aviator said.

The issue, if left unresolved, would dovetail in the worst way when combined with another issue reported by Defense News: At extremely high altitudes, the Navy and Marine Corps versions of the F-35 can only fly at supersonic speeds for short bursts of time without risking structural damage and loss of its stealth capability, a problem that may make it impossible for the Navy’s F-35C to conduct supersonic intercepts.

“It has random oscillations, pitch and yaw issues above [its] 20-[degree angle of attack]," the aviator said. "[So] if I had to perform the aircraft — if I had to maneuver to defeat a missile, maneuver to fight another aircraft, the plane could have issues moving. And if I turn around aggressively and get away from these guys and use the afterburner, [the horizontal tail and tail boom] start to melt or have issues.”

The issue with control above 20-degrees AOA gets to one of the main debates about the aircraft: What if it needed to get into a dogfight? The F-35 is supposed to detect and kill its prey at range with missiles — either its own or from another platform in the network. But history has taught naval aviation that ignoring the possibility of close combat with another aircraft can prove deadly.

“This was not designed as a [traditional] fighter,” said Jerry Hendrix, a retired naval flight officer and analyst with Telemus Group. “This was meant to fight at distance with missiles. If you got in close, if you had to go to guns, that ain’t working.”

In a statement addressing a broad range of issues reported exclusively by Defense News, Ulmer, the Lockheed executive, defended the performance of the jet.

“The F-35s today are meeting or exceeding performance specifications and delivering unprecedented capability and safety compared to legacy fighter aircraft. These issues are important to address, and each is well understood, resolved or on a path to resolution," Ulmer said. “We’ve worked collaboratively with our customers and we are fully confident in the F-35’s performance and the solutions in place to address each of the items identified.”

An active-duty naval aviator who reviewed the documents for Defense News said the issues are reflective of an aircraft that packed in a lot of new technology, adding that, historically, all new jets have had problems.

“That document looks like growing pains for an aircraft that we tried to do a whole lot to all at once,” the aviator said. “You’re going to see that if you dig back at what Super Hornets looked like for the first few years. Go back in the archives and look at Tomcat — think about that with the variable sweep-wing geometry, the AWG-9 Radar.

"There was a lot of new technology incorporated into the aircraft, and there are always going to be growing pains.”

Valerie Insinna in Washington contributed to this report.

This can be fixed by software update.
Russia detected 6 F-35 jets near borders of Iran after attack on US base: Lavrov

https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...rders-of-iran-after-attack-on-us-base-lavrov/

Citing Lavrov’s statement, the aviation publication Avia.Pro reported that the Russian Foreign Minister claimed his country’s armed forces were able to track the presence of the F-35 jets because of their air defense systems in the Middle East region.


“At that time, there were at least six F-35s in the air, on the border, near Iranian airspace. This information still requires rechecking, but emphasizes the whole nervousness of the situation,” Lavrov said.
Why would Lavrov let the US know that it (Russia) can detect F-35? This does not make military sense. Anyway, if it wants to sell its radsrs or SAM all Russian sellers need to do is make a classified briefing of the radar data showing F-35 detection to prospective customers. This way the US will never know the vulnerability of its F-35 to Russian radars.

So the only plausible explanation for Lavrov's expose is that Russia detected F-35s that wanted to be seen with Lunenberg lenses on (and Russia realized it).
 

Defcon 1

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Supersonic approaches by missiles just like fighter jets have lower control authority than subsonic weapons.
Here's the turn rate characteristics for F16 for example -
View attachment 41824

The same goes for missiles too, but to a greater degree since the wing load is a lot higher.
While supersonic weapons reduce time for reaction by defender, they also have reduced capability against decoys.

If they cancelled the B variant to choose a subsonic missile, what does that tell you...
It tells me that you have no proof that lrasm b was inferior, so you continue to make things up. For your information, DARPA cancelled it because they found this project riskier. The mighty US wasn't sure that they will be able to build a brahmos copy so they fell back to stealth.
 

BON PLAN

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Why would Lavrov let the US know that it (Russia) can detect F-35?
Why not saying it? Everybody work on low band and multistatic radars. It's even good for the russian radar marketing.
LM can't change the bird now. The thickness of the RAM can't be increase. I don't think there will be a breakthrough in the RAM coating specification. If true, that leave no solution to US.
 

StealthFlanker

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Russia detected 6 F-35 jets near borders of Iran after attack on US base: Lavrov

https://www.almasdarnews.com/articl...rders-of-iran-after-attack-on-us-base-lavrov/

Citing Lavrov’s statement, the aviation publication Avia.Pro reported that the Russian Foreign Minister claimed his country’s armed forces were able to track the presence of the F-35 jets because of their air defense systems in the Middle East region.


“At that time, there were at least six F-35s in the air, on the border, near Iranian airspace. This information still requires rechecking, but emphasizes the whole nervousness of the situation,” Lavrov said.
While that certainly makes a very attractive title for tabloid and yellow journalism. The article missing the most important details to make it worth
1- Was the so-called detection confirmed? like by visual or by shooting down an F-35? Nope. So the fact is that it could be an F-35 but it could also be MALD or MALD-J or even ALE-55, ALE-50 in the work. And realistically speaking it could even be the product of ALQ-184

2- Let say they actually detect the F-35. What was the distance?. Stealth aircraft are not mean to be invisible, they are low observable. So that they can attack target before they are detected. Technically speaking, even Mig-21 radar can detect F-35, however, the distance it can detect F-35 is tactically irrelevant. So simply saying we detect some F-35 doesn't actually mean a lot.

3- Did these F-35 carry Luneburg lens? enough said

4- From what aspect did they detect these F-35? from frontal aspect that a good achievement, but from the side ? not so much.

5- What was the type of radar used? fire control radar or OTH early warning radar?

....etc
 

Bhurki

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The mighty US wasn't sure that they will be able to build a brahmos copy so they fell back to stealth.
You can believe of Russia MiC being superior to US MIC if you want.. But the difference in capabilities is quite evident in literally all fields. Specifically in terms of missiles..
In terms of rockets, russian terminal interceptor like 48N6 weighs 1800 kg while Thaad interceptor weighs 900 kg..
In terms of engines, while US is achieiving well over 10+ T/W ratio for a couple of decades now, Russia has had a problem to cross the threshold with even a single prototype yet.
 

IndianHawk

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Here comes the question of kill chain..
How do you expect to find a carrier battle group that moves at 30knots per hour.. And how do you aim on getting 2 cruisers + 6 destroyers worth of AN/SPY and missiles.l?
If a carrier is going to attack us then a plane will fly from carrier to near shore and back ( f18 ) follow the plane and you know exactly where the carrier is. If the carrier isn't attacking no need to find it.

A US carriers alone costs 30 billion with air wing .
A bramhos costs 2 mil only . We'll have no issue throwing 1000 bramhos on it and yet it will only cost 2 billion!!

They don't have enough Sam buddy.
 

IndianHawk

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You can believe of Russia MiC being superior to US MIC if you want.. But the difference in capabilities is quite evident in literally all fields. Specifically in terms of missiles..
In terms of rockets, russian terminal interceptor like 48N6 weighs 1800 kg while Thaad interceptor weighs 900 kg..
In terms of engines, while US is achieiving well over 10+ T/W ratio for a couple of decades now, Russia has had a problem to cross the threshold with even a single prototype yet.
USA is also ahead of France yet it doesn't have anything matching meteor . USA is much ahead of Japan and yet Japanese got area equipped aam first. Being ahead in general doesn't mean excelling in everything.
 

Bhurki

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USA is also ahead of France yet it doesn't have anything matching meteor . USA is much ahead of Japan and yet Japanese got area equipped aam first. Being ahead in general doesn't mean excelling in everything.
Aim120 D is what fills the role for meteor until LREW and Aim260 come into production.
What is area equipped aam?
The question was about 'capability' rather than if it 'exists' or not.
 

IndianHawk

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Aim120 D is what fills the role for meteor until LREW and Aim260 come into production.
What is area equipped aam?
The question was about 'capability' rather than if it 'exists' or not.
It should be aesa. Damn autocorrect.

Aim260 can't meet ramjet performance. Capability to production and perfection takes time and only after rigorous testing can the capability be proven . That's why russian are ahead in hypersonics.
 

Bhurki

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If a carrier is going to attack us then a plane will fly from carrier to near shore and back ( f18 ) follow the plane and you know exactly where the carrier is.
This isnt WW2 era.
'Plane' doesn't touch and go the target, it releases its payload in form of a Harpoon, Tomahawk, jassm from 100s of miles away.
A bramhos costs 2 mil only . We'll have no issue throwing 1000 bramhos on it and yet it will only cost 2 billion!!
Range and locating the carrier is major issue here.
If a carrier is 1000 miles away from shore, then you need to predict where it is exactly before launching a MKI that carries the brahmos, or the whole mission is waste because runs out of fuel before finding the target.
They don't have enough Sam buddy.
Each CBG carrier at wartime are accompanied by atleast 2 cruisers and a destroyer squadron (6-10) equaling a loadout in the range of 800-1200 Mk41 Vls. Since the offensive strikes are most done by the carrier, these ships work only as defensive line deploying most of their vls as SAM.

Each of those 800-1200 vls can hold
1 x SM3 (ballistic missile def)
4 x ESSM ( air threats upto 50 miles)
 

IndianHawk

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This isnt WW2 era.
'Plane' doesn't touch and go the target, it releases its payload in form of a Harpoon, Tomahawk, jassm from 100s of miles away.
Exactly there are AWACS to track those attacking planes from 100s of miles away and patrol aircrafts + drones to scan the general direction of plan and then there are satellites to scan once you have an idea of general direction. No Carrier can remain hidden if it's using its air wing .
Range and locating the carrier is major issue here.
If a carrier is 1000 miles away from shore, then you need to predict where it is exactly before launching a MKI that carries the brahmos, or the whole mission is waste because runs out of fuel before finding the target.
Like I said 1000 miles is within su30 and bramhos striking range . With nirbhaya we could hit 1500-2000 miles away. No carrier can outrun a supersonic fighter jet and and no carrier can remain hidden once it's using its air wing to attack. Su30 can fly 8200km with two refueling it can fly 3000 km without refueling.

Each CBG at wartime are accompanied by atleast 2 cruisers and a destroyer squadron (6-10) equaling a loadout in the range of 800-1200 Mk41 Vls. Since the offensive strikes are most done by the carrier, these ships work only as defensive line deploying all of their vls as SAM.

Each of those 800-1200 vls can hold
1 x SM3 (ballistic missile def)
4 x ESSM ( air threats upto 50 miles
The whole discussion is redundant since no US Sam can intercept supersonic bramhos they are simply too slow. And we won't stop because like I calculated bramhos is cheap against carrier.

And all these destroyers and cruiser will have to face all other Indian naval assets from Indian carriers to destroyers to Nuke subs (akula) to Scorpion. So it's not just bramhos it's also scalp from Rafale , bramhos Ng from mig29 , mwf etc and nirbhaya from planes and simply from Indian mainland as it's longer ranged and even cheaper than bramhos. You are severely underestimating Indian abilities. I have yet not discussed dhanush or other ballistics missile which also come into play if push comes to shove.
 

IndianHawk

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Even US is aware of how useless it's carriers are against major missile powers I'll give two pointers

1. Debate in US about future of large carriers against threat of carrier killer missile

2. USA 6th fighter jet design which calls for more range than ever so that carriers can operate much further from what they can do now. Otherwise they won't survive.
 

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