DRDO Phalcon style AWACS

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: DRDO AWACS reloaded

Sir, My view based on Logistical reasons also Longer duration in Air ..

Other than these, Options are unlimited ..

sir these are better design options for us

=======================


Absolutely, Yes ..

It will retain all the properties of C-130J as its platform is C-130J ..

Can it land on unprepared strips or short runways like the regular C-130 ? Just in case..

 

[sayareakd]

Re: DRDO AWACS reloaded

Sir, My view based on Logistical reasons also Longer duration in Air ..

Other than these, Options are unlimited ..


=======================


Absolutely, Yes ..

It will retain all the properties of C-130J as its platform is C-130J ..

true sir, my views are based on aerodynamic body for aircraft. We had that accident with our AWAC.

 

[laughingbuddha]

Endurance and turn around time would be a factor.

 

[Twinblade]

Re: DRDO AWACS reloaded

C-130J can be a good options, IAF operate these in numbers and spare should not be a concern ..

Not for the role we are looking for. The proposed dia of the array is around 10 meters, larger than any array flying today. It needs the largest plane it can get, Beriev A-100, Airbus A330 would be good options.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Re: DRDO AWACS reloaded

Not for the role we are looking for. The proposed dia of the array is around 10 meters, larger than any array flying today. It needs the largest plane it can get, Beriev A-100, Airbus A330 would be good options.

Just to add to that,

CABS/DRDO is looking at and AWACS in the league of the Phalcon/E3C Sentry class, with comparable, if nor superior capabilities to either of them.

Now, let's have a look at the E3 Sentry:

[/url] image post[/IMG]

As one might have observed, there are around 16 command/control consoles on the Sentry, which measures well with the normal mission crew of 19. These guys are the hand behind the air control, surveillance operations of the Sentry AWACS.

Now compare that with the pictures of the IAF IL-76 AWACS:

[/url] image hoster[/IMG]

I could count 12 consoles in the image, But I assume that as in the case of the E3 sentry, additional consoles might be in separate compartments. Additionally, just as in E3 Sentry, There are several servers, mainframe(s) to process the data from the Radome and from other accompanying assets.

Even if we assume 15 consoles for the air control, command and surveillance of the future AWACS, we know from the PHALCON experience that the AWACS are also an intelligence asset with embedded COMMINT, SIGINT, COMJAM, hostile communication decryption and other capabilities. These will require separate consoles in addition to very high performance computing Mainframes.

From this it is clear that the future AWACS radar, along with the supporting Servers and Mainframes will require a substantial floor space, floor space which the C130 or other smaller aircraft lack.

And further beyond that, it is also debatable if a propeller driven C130J can power the scale of electronics: from the AESA radar to the Mainframes to the myriad of sensors to the consoles. It must be noted that the aircraft will itself demand a substantial fraction of the electrical power generated by the engines.

All this leads me to believe that a bigger aircraft is what the IAF will go for, when it does go ahead.

 

[Sea Eagle]

Note-> Article by a person in Boeing

India's Airborne Early Warning And Control Tender

In April 2014 India issued a tender for 6 AEW&Caircraft and the offers have to be submitted by July 15 at the latest.

-
Relevant conditions are:
Antenna dome of 10 meters in diameter;
Aircraft with necessary structural modifications, power and endurance adaptations;
Only original aircraft manufacturers are qualified;
Manufacturers are required to support the aircraft for at least 30 years.

India already allocated $1.2B for the new AEW&C aircraft. In total the 6 required aircraft will be worth at least $5B excluding MRO (maintenance, repair, overhaul) of the aircraft during its life span.
At the moment India already has 2 AEW&C aircraft types in use. These are:
Ilyushin 76 / A50IE: Uses an Ilyushin 76 airframe with an ELTA Electronic Industries (which is a daughter of Israel Aircraft Industries) EL/W-2090 Phalcon radar. 3 aircraft were delivered and there are (or were) negotiations for an extra 2 aircraft.
Considering the requirement for 6 aircraft it is likely that the 2 additional aircraft will not be ordered. The airframes used were not acquired from the original manufacturer but were part of the contract with ELTA.
The much smaller Embraer ERJ145SM is the second type with an Indian developed radar array. 3 aircraft have been delivered and although 4 more Embraer's (
ERJ) were ordered, these will have a VIP configuration.
In 2012 the Indian Air Force also bought 2 Bombardier Global 5000 aircraft that have a much longer range than the ERJ145. The Bombardier's are still in Israel being outfitted by ELTA Electronic Industries.
There is no further information on the role of these special mission aircraft, but considering the VIP-configuration of the optional Embraers the AEW&C role seems likely.
Bombardier's open architecture uses, enables third parties to build custom equipment in the airframes.
As described Bombardier is a popular choice for aerospace manufacturers to use as special mission aircraft.

-
CANDIDATES
Since India wants original aircraft manufacturers only Boeing, Airbus Group and United Aircraft Corporation (which owns Ilyushin) apply.
Other aerospace manufacturers do not produce aircraft large enough to facilitate a rotodome (rotating disc-shaped antenna) with a 10 meter diameter.

1.Boeing
Boeing is market leader in the AEW&C market segment that uses large airframes. Electronic equipment is usually provided by Northrop-Grumman (
NOC).
The majority of Boeing's AEW aircraft are E-3 AWACS which are used by the USAF (since 1977) , NATO [NAEWF since 1982], England (since 1991), France (since 1990) and Saudi Arabia (since 1986)
Boeing also has the Boeing 737 AEW&C, but these have a fixed radar antenna. The airframe probably also doesn't have the required payload and range. However, India does operate the P-8 maritime surveillance aircraft, which is also based on the Boeing 737 airframe.
The E-767 (based on the Boeing 767) is the most likely candidate to offer. The E-767 has only been sold to Japan and in use since 1998.

2.Airbus Group
Airbus hasn't sold any AEW&C aircraft yet, but has a prototype based on the C-295 turboprop aircraft. The design is a
joint developmentwith ELTA Electronic Industries, which supplied the AEW&C systems.

3.The Il 76 / A50IE India currently operates is also from ELTA and uses the EL/W-2090 Phalcon radar.

-
The proposal of a Airbus A330 AEW&C aircraft with ELTA Electronic Industries would be a logical choice since India is also in the final stages of buying 6 Airbus A330MRTT tanker aircraft.
The Indian Air Force wants the aircraft manufacturer to design the airframe and rotodome as stated in the tender. The rotodome changes the aircraft characteristics and aerodynamics. In 1999 India's first home-grown AEW aircraft crashed, killing some key people involved in the program.

Another plus for Airbus are the existing connections with India and the Indian aerospace industry. MBB (now part of Airbus Helicopters) helped India develop the HAL Dhruv helicopter. Airbus also has an engineering centre in India which;
is our flagship site in India. With 200 employees - growing to 400 over the next few years - the focus is on high-end engineering and design activities that include flight physics, structures, systems and testing
Considering India's ambitions and the Indian Defence Procurement Procedure selecting Airbus makes sense, especially when the A330AEW is partly designed by Airbus India.
The A330AEW isn't developed yet and this is an opportunity for Boeing. Developing and testing a modified airframe costs time and this offers a window of opportunity for Boeing. Boeing's E-767 is already in use.

4.United Aircraft Corporation
The Indian Air Force already operates Ilyushin 76/78 transport and tanker aircraft since 1985. The A50IE also uses a Il 76 airframe. United Aircraft Corporation is the owner of Ilyushin.
Since negotiations for additional A50IE have not resulted in additional aircraft, selection of the Ilyushin 76 seems unlikely. However, the possibility of choosing the Il 76 cannot be neglected.

 

[cobra commando]

Widebody War Looming For Indian AWACS?

A competition lies ahead for the supply of six widebody jets for India's reloaded AWACS programme, an effort that looks provide the Indian Air Force with six platforms initially. The model above, appearing in public for the first time, depicts the proposed AWACS as being based on an Airbus A330 platform with the integrated 10-metre antenna radome. There's a reason: when the programme was revived some years ago, the DRDO had conducted an internal study and decided that the Airbus jet was what they wanted, though it was rapidly made clear that the field for widebodies was unrestricted, and that the DRDO needed to tender for those six jets. And that's what it began doing in March last year. The DRDO is expected to issue an RFP, and the competition looks like it could potentially be a face- off between the Airbus A330 and the Boeing 767 (this post will be updated with official word from both, if they choose to). Word is Russia's United Aircraft Corp. could also send out feelers on the Il-76MD-90A as a potential platform for the AWACS. Senior scientists at the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) I spoke to here at Aero India 2015 said fabrication of the 10 metre antenna was progressing well, and that there could be movement on data link and communication systems and electronics this year. The IAF is looking to operate at least 15 AWACS aircraft. It currently has three Il-76 based PHALCON platforms and will soon sign up for two more. The Indian AWACS RfP is likely, therefore, to be for six modified widebody platforms with options for four-six more.


LIVEFIST: Widebody War Looming For Indian AWACS?

 

[SajeevJino]

.

wow..What a good news after the Announcement of A 330 MRTT .. those 3 current Phalcons along with upcoming Phalcons also with the 6 EMB Platform, along with Six more wide Body E 3 style should boost our Capability

 

[karn]

A330 won mid air refueling tender . It would be good for commonality .

 

[cobra commando]

[tweet]581764467903447040[/tweet]

 

[rohit b3]

[tweet]581764467903447040[/tweet]

How many approvals have to be given before the final orders are placed?

 

[dastan]

Why so many different stuff, wouldn't this be a logistics nightmare?

 

[anoop_mig25]

[tweet]581764467903447040[/tweet]

Wasnt India using IL-76 Phalcon as AWASC platform why abodon IL-76 Phalcon for Airbus 330 ?????????

 

[cobra commando]

Wasnt India using IL-76 Phalcon as AWASC platform why abodon IL-76 Phalcon for Airbus 330 ?????????

Bcoz of teh: Fuel consumption, maintenance,
rising price in procurement of Ilyushin Il-76 platform and steep price rise demanded by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) for IAI EL/W-2090 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) radar system and integration of it in Ilyushin Il-76 platform, etc. IAF also operates six Il-78MKI based aerial tankers but chose to go for new Airbus platform for next tanker orders.

 

[anoop_mig25]

Bcoz of teh: Fuel consumption, maintenance,
rising price in procurement of Ilyushin Il-76 platform and steep price rise demanded by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) for IAI EL/W-2090 Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) radar system and integration of it in Ilyushin Il-76 platform, etc. IAF also operates six Il-78MKI based aerial tankers but chose to go for new Airbus platform for next tanker orders.

So with new airbus platform isreal wont he asking for steep price right ????? or we are going to install our

 

[SajeevJino]

.

Wide Body, More Equipments Longer Endurance onlee

 

[Sridhar]

Parrikar clears 2 more Prying Planes for IAF ahead of Japan visit
Ahead of his maiden foreign visit to Japan, Parrikar cleared the proposal to build two Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) in India and sanctioned Rs 5,113 crore for the same. These two platforms are to be built on an Airbus A-330 for the Indian Air Force (IAF).
Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: Parrikar clears 2 more Prying Planes for IAF ahead of Japan visit

 

[uoftotaku]

The Phalcon is hobbled by being based on the terrible IL-76 platform which is a maintenance headache (like most Russian designs) and guzzles fuel. Keep in mind also that the Phalcon Radar itself is a highly advanced AESA design that absolutely DOES NOT require the massive airframe of the IL-76 or the obsolete top mounted radome. The current Phalcon design (EL/W-2085) used by the Israeli's themselves and Singapore is based on a Gulfstream G550 business jet with a conformal, fuselage mounted array, so is comparable in size to the EMB-145i system we are fielding BUT provides usable capability ON PAR with the massive IL-76's we use. Why? Because our enlightened procurement planners INSISTED on the customized IL-76 based radome design (EL/W-2090), hence both the higher cost and longer time required for our 3 birds. FYI, Singapore procured a set of 4 G550 Phalcons + 1 G550 based ELINT platform from IAI for a sum total of around $1.5B, while we paid $1.1B for JUST the radars and integration alone for our 3 in-service birds (the cost of procuring the IL-76's is separate)

 

[grampiguy]

The Phalcon is hobbled by being based on the terrible IL-76 platform which is a maintenance headache (like most Russian designs) and guzzles fuel. Keep in mind also that the Phalcon Radar itself is a highly advanced AESA design that absolutely DOES NOT require the massive airframe of the IL-76 or the obsolete top mounted radome. The current Phalcon design (EL/W-2085) used by the Israeli's themselves and Singapore is based on a Gulfstream G550 business jet with a conformal, fuselage mounted array, so is comparable in size to the EMB-145i system we are fielding BUT provides usable capability ON PAR with the massive IL-76's we use. Why? Because our enlightened procurement planners INSISTED on the customized IL-76 based radome design (EL/W-2090), hence both the higher cost and longer time required for our 3 birds. FYI, Singapore procured a set of 4 G550 Phalcons + 1 G550 based ELINT platform from IAI for a sum total of around $1.5B, while we paid $1.1B for JUST the radars and integration alone for our 3 in-service birds (the cost of procuring the IL-76's is separate)

With all due respect, Indian requirement in terms of "time on station" is huge because of the large size of area of responsibility. So the radar on IL-76 was right decision then. For Singapore's size, G550 based AWACS is fine and actually they could have been fine with E-2D as well. For India, even EMB-145I is not enough..

 

[uoftotaku]

With all due respect, Indian requirement in terms of "time on station" is huge because of the large size of area of responsibility. So the radar on IL-76 was right decision then. For Singapore's size, G550 based AWACS is fine and actually they could have been fine with E-2D as well. For India, even EMB-145I is not enough..

True that India needs a long endurance platform. But in that respect the IL-76 is the worst choice! Why I say that is simple if the comparative facts are laid out:

- On basis of radar performance, the G550 and IL-76 Phalcon platforms are essentially similar. There is no discernible difference in detection ranges etc.
- On basis of range / time on station of the 2 platforms, which as you rightly point out is the crucial factor for India, the difference becomes stark. The standard IL-76 platform has a range of around 4800nm which translates to around 8 hours on-station time (depending on altitude etc). The G550 don't forget is designed for intercontinental flights so despite its small size it has a range of 6000nm which translates to an on station time of 10 hours! While both aircraft have IFR capability to extend range there is still a crucial matter at hand, Fuel Consumption. The G550 is giving you MORE range for less than 20% of the total fuel consumed by an IL-76 for the same mission. With the maintenance costs of the IL-76 also running into uncharted territory the cost figures suddenly start to look ridiculous. The EMB-145i btw is based off a regional jet so can offer typically only about 2 hours on station at most.

Keep in mind also that the G550 has a much smaller logistics footprint, ie: It can be operated from smaller air bases and doesn't require the massive jumbo sized hangers, parking bays etc at places like Palam where the IL-76's are restricted, a critical weakness in case of war. IIRC the argument made to acquire the IL-76 platform in the first place was originally based only on the fact that the IAF already operated the aircraft and thus had a pilot pool, spares inventory etc...but again this argument is weakened by the fundamental differences between the original D-30 powered IL-76's the IAF uses (and will soon retire) and the PS-90 powered newer versions selected for the Phalcon.

All in all, I think it cleanly explains the reasoning behind this new DRDO CABs project. The IL-76's are a pain in the neck regardless of how good the Phalcon radar itself is.