DRDO 155mm Artillery Program

[binayak95]

The counter battery role will be filled by the K-9 Vajras that are being built by L&T. That's what they are meant for. The ATAGS are more for mountain warfare where we dominate in terms of firepower and elevation as it is.

 

[mostuselesshit]

For everyone talking about shoot n scoot capability of ATAGS....ATAGS/Bofors is not meant to be anti battery or shoot & scoot...they are to be put on one side of the Himalayas and shoot the shit out of all dug in terrorist/pakis...anti battery missions are very difficult in higher altitude region of Himalayas..due to density of mountains and steep contours of terrain...hence u firstly get a little more time to scoot since it takes a lot of time to setup anti battery compared to normal terrain...also, u dont need to run away from blast zones coz der is a lot of mountainous cover to run to....so all of china & most of paki border is covered

For remaining places like some flat terrain borders with pakistan...it still works coz ATAGS better accuracy...more range compensates a lot(these 2 comparison are to paki arty not K9)...n mostly low maintenance time & operation cost compared to K9 or other armored SPGs allows u to put more guns in action against an enemy with lower tech....lower quality ammunition...low volume...low training...less tech for anti battery operations...so it works for flat borders with pakistan...might not have worked with flat borders with china...but works with pakis...lucky us

 

[HunterbroM4]

Army wont allow ATAGS to stand alone since it has an APU. They will dedicate trucks for its mobility. Because it makes sense, no one can expect what happens during a conflict. What is the point if the redeploying of the gun by its own APU takes hours.
Any advantage the gun had will be gone by then.

 

[Kshithij]

Army wont allow ATAGS to stand alone since it has an APU. They will dedicate trucks for its mobility. Because it makes sense, no one can expect what happens during a conflict. What is the point if the redeploying of the gun by its own APU takes hours.
Any advantage the gun had will be gone by then.

APUS are to move locally for a few hundred metres to a few kilometres. Trucks are needed only for hauling longer distances. ATAGS can exist independently without any trucks

 

[G10]

Cant these be towed to trucks as container trailers weigh more than 27 tonnes

 

[Prashant12]

Arjun Mark-2 tank set to see light of day

Design of Tejas’ next version almost done, indicates DRDO Chairman

In an important move, the ‘Made in India’ Arjun Mark-2 tank project is set to see the light of the day.

Chairman of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Dr S Christopher in an interview to The Tribune said, “We have had a meeting with the Vice-Chief of the Indian Army where it was agreed on accepting Mark-2. Modalities are being worked out”. Once done, the acceptance of necessity (AON) for 118 will be revived, he added.

The AON is decided by the Defence Acquisition Council headed by the Defence Minister. A total of 93 modifications have been done on the first version of Arjun — 124 were inducted — in 2010-2011.

On being asked if the Army was okay with the weight of the tank, the DRDO boss said: “The weight (the tank is almost 58 tonnes) has been accepted; that is a major change”. Most modern European tanks are of the same weight, and tank-transporters (specialised trucks) for Arjun are available.

The DRDO has promised to set up a system to maintain the Arjun Mark-2 within India. It will be an annual maintenance contract with the Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) as a possible agency, Dr Christopher said. On the trials, he said, “These have done 4,000 kms of run, the upgrades will be tested.”

On artillery guns, Dr Christopher said the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems (ATAGS), of which the Army has agreed to accept 40 pieces to start with, will get a more powerful engine to enable rapid movement. The guns designed by DRDO have been made by two private companies under the transfer of technology.

The DRDO is keen to get a slice of the 1,580 towed guns the Army is looking to buy. “Both companies (Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge) are gearing up produce more. We need an order for 200-300 guns to tie up logistics,” he said.

Talking about the next version of the Tejas, called ‘Mark1-A’, Dr Christopher said: “The design other than the AESA radar and the jammer pod is complete.”
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is looking to import the AESA radar even as DRDO made a radar that will be tested next month. The IAF is looking at 83 ‘Mark1-A’, with 59 improvements over the existing Tejas.

The Indian Air Force has projected a need for 324 fighter jets over 15 years and has officially indicated that it needs the ‘Tejas Mark 2’ (medium combat aircraft). It will carry a more powerful engine and weigh almost 20 per cent heavier than Tejas.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/arjun-mark-2-tank-set-to-see-light-of-day/563832.html

 

[sthf]

There are auxiliary vehicles that carry reloads.

Something that increases the logistics footprint.

Are you sure it is less parts? There are plenty of parts on that gun, it looks more automated.

I am certain that it will have a lot fewer parts than a full flegded truck.

You have no more than 90 seconds from the time you fire to the time you need to be out of the zone. At the rate that APU moves it is not going to be out of danger.

From the first round itself? Because if that is the criteria than Caesar fails this as evidenced by your own video.

If that is not the case then I don't see any huge advantage over ATAGS. Your video shows IN-6 rounds-OUT time as 2:16.

The 6 round fire takes about a minute. ATAGS does this in 30 seconds. In addition to a 6 round MRSI at 15kms.

If IA's own 30 year old Bofors is any indication which takes nearly 2 minutes to get into action, takes 1 minute to fire 8 rounds and 30-40 seconds to get it attached back to the FAT, there is little reason to believe that DRDO, Tata and Bharat Forge hasnt improved upon this bit.

If it isn't air mobile then it needs to be remounted to its transporter within 60 seconds

Information is scarce though I dont see any reason that it can't.

 

[patriots]

Arjun Mark-2 tank set to see light of day

Design of Tejas’ next version almost done, indicates DRDO Chairman

In an important move, the ‘Made in India’ Arjun Mark-2 tank project is set to see the light of the day.

Chairman of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) Dr S Christopher in an interview to The Tribune said, “We have had a meeting with the Vice-Chief of the Indian Army where it was agreed on accepting Mark-2. Modalities are being worked out”. Once done, the acceptance of necessity (AON) for 118 will be revived, he added.

The AON is decided by the Defence Acquisition Council headed by the Defence Minister. A total of 93 modifications have been done on the first version of Arjun — 124 were inducted — in 2010-2011.

On being asked if the Army was okay with the weight of the tank, the DRDO boss said: “The weight (the tank is almost 58 tonnes) has been accepted; that is a major change”. Most modern European tanks are of the same weight, and tank-transporters (specialised trucks) for Arjun are available.

The DRDO has promised to set up a system to maintain the Arjun Mark-2 within India. It will be an annual maintenance contract with the Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML) as a possible agency, Dr Christopher said. On the trials, he said, “These have done 4,000 kms of run, the upgrades will be tested.”

On artillery guns, Dr Christopher said the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems (ATAGS), of which the Army has agreed to accept 40 pieces to start with, will get a more powerful engine to enable rapid movement. The guns designed by DRDO have been made by two private companies under the transfer of technology.

The DRDO is keen to get a slice of the 1,580 towed guns the Army is looking to buy. “Both companies (Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge) are gearing up produce more. We need an order for 200-300 guns to tie up logistics,” he said.

Talking about the next version of the Tejas, called ‘Mark1-A’, Dr Christopher said: “The design other than the AESA radar and the jammer pod is complete.”
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited is looking to import the AESA radar even as DRDO made a radar that will be tested next month. The IAF is looking at 83 ‘Mark1-A’, with 59 improvements over the existing Tejas.

The Indian Air Force has projected a need for 324 fighter jets over 15 years and has officially indicated that it needs the ‘Tejas Mark 2’ (medium combat aircraft). It will carry a more powerful engine and weigh almost 20 per cent heavier than Tejas.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/arjun-mark-2-tank-set-to-see-light-of-day/563832.html

it's 68 tonne not 58 tonne......arjun mk2
......................... .. ................................................. .

 

[Blood Rain]

I see plenty of reason to have an air transportable self-contained system that can drive to the action even if it is hundreds of clicks away. All the enemy need do to a train is destroy the tracks. The real advantage is shoot and scoot. You can't fight China with fixed artillery emplacements, not with their counter battery radar. I think even Pakistan has it now.

Shoot and scoot over the Himalayas, with a truck??!!Good luck with that m8. Oh and about targeting of the Indian guns by the Chinese, how are they gonna hit the Indian gun positions perched on reverse slopes of steep mountains??How are their shells gonna get past the cliff overhangs??

 

[Armand2REP]

Shoot and scoot over the Himalayas, with a truck??!!Good luck with that m8. Oh and about targeting of the Indian guns by the Chinese, how are they gonna hit the Indian gun positions perched on reverse slopes of steep mountains??How are their shells gonna get past the cliff overhangs??

You might want it to be a static mountain fight but the terrain changes as soon as either side makes a breakthrough. You can use roads and valleys for maneuvering. NLOS counter battery fire goes up and lands on your head regardless of terrain. If the cliff is so steep they can't lob a shell over it, you can't fire past it either. Simple fact is if you stay static you die, you just have to figure the best position of the terrain so you can move around.

 

[Kshithij]

You might want it to be a static mountain fight but the terrain changes as soon as either side makes a breakthrough. You can use roads and valleys for maneuvering. NLOS counter battery fire goes up and lands on your head regardless of terrain. If the cliff is so steep they can't lob a shell over it, you can't fire past it either. Simple fact is if you stay static you die, you just have to figure the best position of the terrain so you can move around.

There are different types of usage of artillery. SPG is used for forward march whereas towed artillery is used for defensive posture to defend the territory.

It is true that WLR can spot artillery, it is also a fact that the steep slopes of the himalayas can't be negotiated with a truck. The artillery is generally disassembled and then towed with the help of pulleys, mules etc. The shoot and scoot is used only with the APU as it is impossible to scoot for long distances due to difficult terrain. Small distance scooting is all that can be done and it does not require a truck.

Another thing about towed artillery is that it can work fully manually and hence remain on standby without fear of fuel depletion. The fuel supply in difficult terrains will add to the difficulty of fighting. The fuel woes is a really serious issue in warfare

 

[Screambowl]

You might want it to be a static mountain fight but the terrain changes as soon as either side makes a breakthrough. You can use roads and valleys for maneuvering.

Yes, you can do that and will be done.. And in case of any skirmish, even the MBT will be deployed at forward LC areas like Haji Pir and lower foothills, if the need arises. You can't breach into POK without armor regiment and cavalry. Shoot and scoot becomes the best available offense in those areas due to topography and risk of getting hit by ATGM or RPG

 

[Armand2REP]

There are different types of usage of artillery. SPG is used for forward march whereas towed artillery is used for defensive posture to defend the territory.

It is true that WLR can spot artillery, it is also a fact that the steep slopes of the himalayas can't be negotiated with a truck. The artillery is generally disassembled and then towed with the help of pulleys, mules etc. The shoot and scoot is used only with the APU as it is impossible to scoot for long distances due to difficult terrain. Small distance scooting is all that can be done and it does not require a truck.

Another thing about towed artillery is that it can work fully manually and hence remain on standby without fear of fuel depletion. The fuel supply in difficult terrains will add to the difficulty of fighting. The fuel woes is a really serious issue in warfare

They are not going to haul ATAGS up the mountain by mule when it weighs as much as Caesar with its truck chassis. If you are dropping fixed artillery into the mountains you choose something lighter that can be slung to a helicopter like M777 which is why India bought M777.

 

[Prashant12]

User trials are scheduled for September 2018. DRDO is confident that ATAGS will pave the way for a mounted gun system & SPH in the future.

 

[Blood Rain]

You might want it to be a static mountain fight but the terrain changes as soon as either side makes a breakthrough. You can use roads and valleys for maneuvering.

Good luck pulling off that stunt over the Himalayas, guess you should come visit our side of the LAC some time, great scenery, nice welcoming folks as well.

NLOS counter battery fire goes up and lands on your head regardless of terrain.

Dude, I know what I'm talking about, the same thing happened in 99 Kargil, only the Indian Army was on the shit end of the spectrum as their artillery couldn't neutralize Pakistani gun positions which were perched on the reverse slopes.Trust me, the tyranny of the terrain renders all types of ground based radars virtually ineffective.

If the cliff is so steep they can't lob a shell over it, you can't fire past it either.

Fair enough, but still, hitting positions on the reverse slopes would need an insane amount of luck and special guided rounds....lots of em.Again, our Army tried with the Russian Karasnopol M and guess what, those things failed big time!!

Simple fact is if you stay static you die, you just have to figure the best position of the terrain so you can move around.

Like I said before, come visit our side of the LAC sometimes, nice place, the journey would be quite rough mind you but then again, where's the fun in a smooth drive, right??

 

[Armand2REP]

Good luck pulling off that stunt over the Himalayas, guess you should come visit our side of the LAC some time, great scenery, nice welcoming folks as well.

Easier than disassembling ATAGS, hauling it up a cliff by donkey, reassembling it and hoping counter battery fire doesn't destroy your position. The worst strategy is a static defence, you have to push the enemy so you control the fight especially against an enemy with the resources of China who can win by any attrition.

Dude, I know what I'm talking about, the same thing happened in 99 Kargil, only the Indian Army was on the shit end of the spectrum as their artillery couldn't neutralize Pakistani gun positions which were perched on the reverse slopes.Trust me, the tyranny of the terrain renders all types of ground based radars virtually ineffective.

What exactly did the Pak forces at Kargil have in the way of counter battery radar? Everything I have seen showed them to be rather under-equipped in that regard. The radar will be deployed on the top of a high point and monitor any incoming rounds, they do not need the point of origin contact to establish the point of origin. It has it's own ballistics computer that calculates the trajectory. It might be slightly less accurate than on open fields, but they will be firing more than enough rounds to saturate the area to neutralise the threat. If you want to use a cliff face as cover you need to remount and pull up to the face, then go back to dismount in between artillery barrages. You can't just sit there and be safe.

Fair enough, but still, hitting positions on the reverse slopes would need an insane amount of luck and special guided rounds....lots of em.Again, our Army tried with the Russian Karasnopol M and guess what, those things failed big time!!

From the tactics I saw during Kargil they set up the artillery in a far valley and didn't move. If they try that against the Chinese you know what will happen. The Chinese have all kinds of missiles, rockets and artillery to pound an area, guided or unguided. All of it will be targeted with counter battery radar they cloned from Thales.

One area the Chinese have taken seriously is artillery, if India uses a static defence the battle is over before it begins.

 

[Blood Rain]

Easier than disassembling ATAGS, hauling it up a cliff by donkey, reassembling it and hoping counter battery fire doesn't destroy your position.

You are kidding me, right??!!Hauling a 155 mm artillery piece by a mule train??!!Really??!!Dude, it's a bloody medium artillery piece we're talking about, not a fucking pack howitzer or an 84mm field gun for crying out loud!!No one with even one tenth of a brain would ever think to do what you are saying even in one's dreams!!

The worst strategy is a static defence,

Again, good luck driving a truck over the mountain ranges.This is why I was telling you to visit the frontier regions of the LAC and see for yourself!!A mobile warfare is simply not possible to conduct over that terrain not with heavy equipment except for a few positions here and there (Chumbi valley comes to mind as an example).I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done but it CAN NOT be done, please try to get what I'm trying to say here!!I've been to the regions, I've seen the herculean tasks our Army is entrusted with!!
It's extremely difficult to find room for gun positions, in fact, in many places, they have to blast out portions of hills to make room for artillery positions!!
And besides, how do you propose the Army to actually scoot with their guns after doing a fire assault and more than how, where to??It's just cliffs and gorges in there!!How you gonna driver your trucks over such terrains??Through the valleys - forget it!!The gradient in most places is just too steep and generally unsuitable for any type of vehicular movement!!

Please do note that I'm not against your insistence on mobile warfare, in fact I'm all for maneuver warfare (not at the cost of armor protection mind you but that's a debate for another time and place) but doing that over the mountain ranges is simply not feasible and that too against an enemy as the Chinese.Against them, all we can do is defense and hope to tie up their forces, hold out for as long as we can and hope for the best, for the foreseeable future at least.

you have to push the enemy so you control the fight especially against an enemy with the resources of China who can win by any attrition.

Pushing an enemy like the Chinese behind, yeah okay pal.Any suggestions as to how we are supposed to do that??And in any case,

What exactly did the Pak forces at Kargil have in the way of counter battery radar?

This one - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN/TPQ-36_Firefinder_radar

Everything I have seen showed them to be rather under-equipped in that regard.

Then you haven't seen everything I fear.

The radar will be deployed on the top of a high point and monitor any incoming rounds, they do not need the point of origin contact to establish the point of origin. It has it's own ballistics computer that calculates the trajectory.

Trust me, we have got such WLRs of our own design, AESA ones and trust me, their performance parameters dropped significantly when deployed over mountain ranges, I know what I'm talking about.

It might be slightly less accurate than on open fields, but they will be firing more than enough rounds to saturate the area to neutralise the threat. If you want to use a cliff face as cover you need to remount and pull up to the face, then go back to dismount in between artillery barrages.

In turn, we can do the same to their forces as well, we have got plenty of short to medium range tactical missiles of our own.

You can't just sit there and be safe.

Can't really move around that much either, it ain't exactly a fucking desert we are talking about here now, are we??Like I said, good luck driving your artillery trucks over the mountains, better yet, why don't you design a flying (or at least hovering) artillery piece for us, that will come in really handy.
In the meantime, the Chinese are sitting atop the Tibetan plateau and hence can move their equipment unrestricted, which puts us at a tremendous disadvantage but that's how it is, just another day in our lives.
Again, please don't get the assumption that I'm opposed to your line of thinking in any way, I would take an SPG over a towed gun any day if we were talking about the plains of Punjab or the deserts of Rajasthan but anywhere along the LAC except Ladakh, that's a plateau and perfectly well suited for mobile warfare given the engines can handle the rarefied atmosphere, that's simply out of question.

From the tactics I saw during Kargil they set up the artillery in a far valley and didn't move.

Well that's because, most of the time, they were targeting positions on the Indian side of the border which had been captured by the Pakistanis, which means, the guns could be placed at comparatively far away valleys, away from the mountain ranges and since they were outside the range of the Pakistani artillery, there simply were no need to move around!!
But yeah, there were instances when the Pakistanis did manage to successfully target our forward gun positions as they had artillery observers positioned on the mountain peaks who could pinpoint out gun positions and the Indian artillery was pretty much defenseless as the terrain often left no room to maneuver around.

If they try that against the Chinese you know what will happen.

Yeah, I know, artillery has always been their strong point.

The Chinese have all kinds of missiles, rockets and artillery to pound an area, guided or unguided. All of it will be targeted with counter battery radar they cloned from Thales.

So do we.We've got hundreds of conventionally armed Prithvi 3s and Agni 1s along with Prahar tactical missiles, as well.Both of us can play the game.

One area the Chinese have taken seriously is artillery,

That's nothing new really, it has been the case since ages now.

if India uses a static defence the battle is over before it begins.

If that were to be the case, they would have simply rolled over our defences and be sitting in Arunachal Pradesh by now.Static defense in the high altitude mountains, where one's mobility is seriously restricted if not completely compromised is a whole difference ball game compared to the same over a plain setting where the attacking side can use the terrain for flanking maneuvers and all.
And besides, the Chinese are sitting on top of the Tibetan plateau and our positions are at a lot lower altitudes and there is the fucking Himalayas in between, so how do you propose we use a mobile warfare??What, you want our Army to just paradrop the infantry over the Chinese side and hope they can fend for themselves??

By the way, you still haven't managed to answer my original question m8, how do you propose we drive around your Ceasers over the mountain ranges??I'm all ears.

By the way, hope you don't mind me asking, where are you from??Armand, isn't it of Germanic origin, if it's indeed your name that is.

 

[Kshithij]

What exactly did the Pak forces at Kargil have in the way of counter battery radar? Everything I have seen showed them to be rather under-equipped in that regard. The radar will be deployed on the top of a high point and monitor any incoming rounds, they do not need the point of origin contact to establish the point of origin. It has it's own ballistics computer that calculates the trajectory. It might be slightly less accurate than on open fields, but they will be firing more than enough rounds to saturate the area to neutralise the threat. If you want to use a cliff face as cover you need to remount and pull up to the face, then go back to dismount in between artillery barrages. You can't just sit there and be safe.

Actually in 1999, Pakistan had weapons locating radar from USA while India did not. That gave advantage to Pakistan

From the tactics I saw during Kargil they set up the artillery in a far valley and didn't move. If they try that against the Chinese you know what will happen. The Chinese have all kinds of missiles, rockets and artillery to pound an area, guided or unguided. All of it will be targeted with counter battery radar they cloned from Thales.

One area the Chinese have taken seriously is artillery, if India uses a static defence the battle is over before it begins.

The problem in Kargil was that India had no location service. GPS was disabled and India could not locate the enemy properly. Mobility will cause major problem, especially in a hilly area without the location services available.

I have said it several times that ATAGS does have an APU that will help it to move It can move at 12kmph and that much mobility is enough. This much mobility is enough. There is no need for a truck

 

[Kshithij]

You are kidding me, right??!!Hauling a 155 mm artillery piece by a mule train??!!Really??!!Dude, it's a bloody medium artillery piece we're talking about, not a fucking pack howitzer or an 84mm field gun for crying out loud!!No one with even one tenth of a brain would ever think to do what you are saying even in one's dreams!!

I actually said that the artillery will be transported up the hills using pulleys and mules. Pulleys using diesel motor can be used. Even mules have been used to tow artillery up the hills before. I am not sure how but that is a fact. I am also not sure if ATAGS can be disassembled and pulled up part by part by a mule or not. But I assumed that since mules were used to pull up artllery in mountains, it may be used again

 

[Blood Rain]

I actually said that the artillery will be transported up the hills using pulleys and mules. Pulleys using diesel motor will be used

Oh, so it was you.Why am I not surprised?