Dhanush the Indian Bofors

[Indrajit]

This guy is a Lt. Gen, listen to his views. He basically says "civilians must not interfere in military affairs"...and a few minutes later says "in the US, military men have become Presidents". So, he's saying, you surrender all policymaking to us. He's an AAPtard, and these are the guys who have lobbied against anything desi, because they have a contempt for all indigenous stuff. These same whiskey generals lobbied against Gen. V.K Singh, got the TSD disbanded and ensured that secularism prevailed.


That was what @dhananjay1 was saying but he got bitten.

Gen Panag was a top notch general and had the likes of Modi been PM when he served, he would well have been CoAS, not Gen.Kapoor. His politics is crap but as an officer, he was top class.

 

[Kay]

155 mm guns have greater weight than 130 mm guns. 130 mm guns have greater weight than 105 mm ones and so on. Also 155 mm L52 guns will weigh more than L45 and L39 guns. Higher range and performance always had a weight penalty for artillery.
This time India is ahead of the curve - something some people cannot comprehend.

 

[Defcon 1]

There is no other way. Order 2000 guns and cost will be about 20% as much per gun as it costs for 100

I have been seeing such lies being peddled on the forum for a long time now. Please provide a source for this ridiculous claim that ordering 2000 guns will cut their costs by 80% as compared to an order of 100 guns.

 

[garg_bharat]

Guys first of all price is not easy to compare. Typically we get an aggregate price; without telling us the exact order. You can understand an order only by comparing item by item. Such stuff is never made public by MOD.

In general private sector will always be cheaper. It is due to efficiency and productivity. So despite a healthy profit margin, private sector will always win over public sector.

In India, we also have trade unions and politicization problems; in addition to sabotage by foreign agencies. Our defence industries have not been running well. Private sector is MUST at this time. It is no more optional.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Yes Dhanush has passed the trials. Thats why production units are getting deployed at LOC.
The next gun will be ATHOS from Bharat Forge. This gun is in service with Israel army.

Rate of production of Dhanush can be increased too. We can easily see 6-8 units per month.

Sir, if it has passed the trial then why we have to induct that ATHOS gun just because it is 52 then ATAGS too is(now don't please don't say it is of higher weight that's why)
then, what was the primary requirement of 155mm gun which india started designing?
PLUS also, I can't understand the fact that 114 orders only were given.

 

[garg_bharat]

Sir, if it has passed the trial then why we have to induct that ATHOS gun just because it is 52 then ATAGS too is(now don't please don't say it is of higher weight that's why)
then, what was the primary requirement of 155mm gun which india started designing?
PLUS also, I can't understand the fact that 114 orders only were given.

I have already answered your question before.

ATAGS is still in development cycle. It is not production ready.

Dhanush benefited from Bofors design. ATAGS is a new design. Proving it will take time plus usual weight issues etc.

ATHOS is a proven gun.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

I have already answered your question before.

ATAGS is still in development cycle. It is not production ready.

Dhanush benefited from Bofors design. ATAGS is a new design. Proving it will take time plus usual weight issues etc.

ATHOS is a proven gun.

What is the urgency to have Athos? Why can't dhanush be used instead?

 

[garg_bharat]

What is the urgency to have Athos? Why can't dhanush be used instead?

Because production agency cannot produce enough number of guns.

Plus safer to have two concurrent production lines. It is healthy competition plus insurance against defects found in field.

Athos in proven product while as dhanush has cleared trial but not field proven.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

I have already answered your question before.

ATAGS is still in development cycle. It is not production ready.

Dhanush benefited from Bofors design. ATAGS is a new design. Proving it will take time plus usual weight issues etc.

ATHOS is a proven gun.

Yes sir but still ATAGS has performed satisfactorily in trials, I just want to relate it to f-35 everybody know this plane has problem(still) but has not stopped it from getting inducted.
Certainly, ARMY HAS AGAIN DONE IT'S famous maneuver or THE TRIALS WERE NOT SATISFACTORY(media is stupid, because they reported trials were successful).
HERE we need trusted source.
By that thing IT'S PREDECESSOR on which exact copy it is build Bofors is HELL LOT PROVEN SIR.
Changing barrel and adding latest technology does not mean you must not induct.
"THIS UNPROVEN DESIGN" is not good logic according to me and our army also I do know certainly does not believe in this otherwise no ATAGS development would had started.
And I am not satisfied with your "proven gun" logic.
Sorry.

 

[Bleh]

IA had the habit of picking the best features from a myriad brochures and calling it PSQRs - because IA didn't have inhouse capability to design or understand design.....forget projecting facts based long term need!

Only when someone has developed multiple variants of a product over several decades can they accurately project what is feasible and what isn't!
Given that Arjun was the first design attempt by CVRDE, they did a fantastic job. Unable to bend laws of physics and unable to defy gravity they ended up with the most optimal product that science would permit with the technology of the day - which is vouched by similar weight for similar features by top class tank design companies in the world.

The entire episode only reveals, if any, the absolute stupidity and lack of knowledge by IA. Sure, DRDO should/could have educated them early on....but the fact is IA acted as an over privileged brat.....there's no other way to put it.

IA specifically asked for a 4-man-crew....and also stipulated extraordinary crew-comfort in terms of space etc.....obviously a bigger tank will create bigger weight!!! For the sake of clarity....T90 is a 3-man crew tank!

Water under the bridge, at this point.
Smart let the underpaid army import to their heart's content & instead concentrate on Navy, AF & exporting... now that Khangress govt isn't there to resist. They barely participate in anything.

Start from small fishes of Africa, Central America work their way up. That's change their lethargic, uncompetitive mentality too.

 

[Enquirer]

Water under the bridge, at this point.
Smart let the underpaid army import to their heart's content & instead concentrate on Navy, AF & exporting... now that Khangress govt isn't there to resist. They barely participate in anything.
Start from small fishes of Africa, Central America work their way up. That's change they're lethargic uncompetitive mentality too.

Sure it's water under the bridge. Just educating some illiterate folks on the forum (like those who think Dhanush, ATAGS are 145 & 152 caliber)!!!

 

[Bleh]

Sure it's water under the bridge. Just educating some illiterate folks on the forum (like those who think Dhanush, ATAGS are 145 & 152 caliber)!!!

What do you care? Chill out...

 

[Bleh]

For those who think IA is infallible, I have a bridge to sell them!

DRDO actually put objection. But it cant refuse as the request if to "try" and then get the best done.

They have not been recruiting men from some other country than our police & paramilitary does...

They may have deliberately have put impossible requirments, so that DRDO/CVRDE refused to participate in the charade & they could go on importing the tanks of the highest bidder.

Arjun created some problems but not insurmountable, they've succeeded to secure orders. Next time we'll see T-90MS breaking down in tank-biathlon... let's hope it won't come to seeing its turret blow away.

But he's right, Indian Army had no obligation to buy it... They seriously should pitch Arjun or FMBT(impressive design, no glaring flaws) for Afghanistan etc. instead of wasting time.
We all know that Indian Army WILL find a way to choose T-14 as FRCV.

 

[Defcon 1]

Look man, this is economics basics. There is no need for source. Just read how scaling works. It is most important aspect of economics and you can read it anywhere

If I can read about it anywhere, show me one weapon where as economies of scale of scale have worked like that, i.e. cost reduction of 80%. Otherwise stop repeating lies.

If such BS was true, US fighters would have been cheaper than the Russian ones.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

If I can read about it anywhere, show me one weapon where as economies of scale of scale have worked like that, i.e. cost reduction of 80%. Otherwise stop repeating lies.

If such BS was true, US fighters would have been cheaper than the Russian ones.

Well, we can see this in electronics, appliances etc where the prices have been slashed like anything due to scaling. Weapons cost is inflated just to ensure arms race is reduced. USA follows a policy of exports having same cost as domestic production. This is to create a sense of fairness. But in order to prevent others from benefitting, USA bloats its own currency and increases its defence budget to high proportions.

So, instead of calling reality as BS, just take a look at electronics, appliance cost and you will see how they are so low

 

[Bleh]

I think sir you can stop, we have already came to the conclusion that ARJUN is good, CAG did their famous report on it too years earlier.
WHEN ARJUN MK-1A was coming around in 2011 as a project, I was screaming don't add Era weight will increase, don't add MINE PLOUGH weight will increase but no at that time this miraculously fell into deaf ears.
WE all know ATAGS is great too, we all know why it's weight is there even the so called M 777 ON WHICH our army is doodling is essentially a manual feed gun.
Neither ATHOS has features of ATAGS and capability to hit more KMS.
So weight will increase. (it is not anti-matter)
But that's not A STICKING POINT FOR not induction.
"Becuase when ATAGS was started no where it was written it must be below certain weight otherwise it will not be chosen, WEIGHT WAS NOT THE PRIMARY CRITERIA".
Had it been that case here in DFI it certainly would had been raised, when ATAGS project was coming around.
Some members don't want to look at what ATAGS has got but like ARJUN fiasco has again made WEIGHT a issue.
WE will not fall for it again,because we all know through in our previous discussions what ATAGS is capable of.
So sir, we know who is at fault,you can rest assured on that.
This is not discussion now discussions were long over,it is debate now.

Look, there are some glaring flaws in the present iterations of the Arjun MBT which we can not and should not overlook but saying that, those are nothing which couldn't have been rectified had the Army top brass actually knew its shit.But instead, it's filled with fuckking nincompoops like one we've have got here.I'm quite certain they couldn't even detect the weak points in the design, let alone advising the designers on ways to rectify them.

You never hear any actual concerns being raised by the army about any valid issue, like Arjun's armour design flaws & low APFSDS penetration... because those are solvable problems.
Just the weight, as that can't be helped... And it's the same for ATAGS. They want 6-rounds, longer range & when weight is increased due to it they use that.

It's DRDOs fault really to not have understood the game by now... should have started keeping extra funds for kickbacks.
If they buy the orders, the profit margin would be lower, but a PSU shouldn't prioritise profit margin...

 

[Aaj ka hero]

Is there a particular example or template for DRDO to follow?

I mean I don't know any towed howitzers with the weight of 12 tons and 60 km range. If you do, I'll be happy to be corrected.

That type of gun toooo can be created, but then HIGH Cost(because new type of metallurgy or Titanium to be used) hence no induction will be brought in the picture or VERY LONG TIME is being taken so let us induct the ATHOS gun and after inducting athos army then"well we already have our gun".
I know this will go to similar T-90MS order which we are seeing now.

 

[Defcon 1]

Well, we can see this in electronics, appliances etc where the prices have been slashed like anything due to scaling. Weapons cost is inflated just to ensure arms race is reduced. USA follows a policy of exports having same cost as domestic production. This is to create a sense of fairness. But in order to prevent others from benefitting, USA bloats its own currency and increases its defence budget to high proportions.

So, instead of calling reality as BS, just take a look at electronics, appliance cost and you will see how they are so low

Dude my query is very specific. You have claimed that if 2000 atags are ordered instead of 100, price will fall by 80%. I am simply asking you to provide me a single instance of whenever it has happened for any weapon system.

I don't understand why are you talking about how US manages their currency. Just simply give give a data point to back up your claim. The more you talk about unrelated things such as US currency and electronics, the more you are proving that your initial claim was simply hot air and now that I have called you on it, you are desperately trying to change the topic.

Btw, prices haven't been slashed by 80% even in case of electronics. The number you quoted is simply too ridiculous to be true.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

@Sandeep0159 Please keep out. This shit filled pond .... the way I see it is a rebellion of underwold typ who get the voice here only to spoil the things further...

Otherwise who is worried about their orders, their product, their mal. People at the deciding end keep thousand of such scientist in their stomach and do not allow them to move ...

They are wise people and system runs on them...

I hope you understand that if people rebel, government will be forced to do teh bidding.

Dude my query is very specific. You have claimed that if 2000 atags are ordered instead of 100, price will fall by 80%. I am simply asking you to provide me a single instance of whenever it has happened for any weapon system.

I don't understand why are you talking about how US manages their currency. Just simply give give a data point to back up your claim. The more you talk about unrelated things such as US currency and electronics, the more you are proving that your initial claim was simply hot air and now that I have called you on it, you are desperately trying to change the topic.

Btw, prices haven't been slashed by 80% even in case of electronics. The number you quoted is simply too ridiculous to be true.

First,the price of a TV was Rs10000 in 1995. But the cost now is Rs 8000. This is despite the value of Rupee being depreciated 3 times. So, the cost of TV has become 15-20% of what it was. Cost of cars and scooters have also come down drastically

Similarly, the cost of making every weapon can come down too. But since weapons have to be exported by most producers, reducing the cost is artificially inflated to avoid selling large quantities to others and making others stronger than the seller.

If you can't understand how the weapons sale is restricted, it is your fault.

 

[Haldiram]

Dude my query is very specific. You have claimed that if 2000 atags are ordered instead of 100, price will fall by 80%. I am simply asking you to provide me a single instance of whenever it has happened for any weapon system.

The economy of scale reduces cost of production for the manufacturer. It is not necessary that the manufacturer passes on the benefit of cost reduction to the end user. Any cost reduction needs to be looked at from the view of manufacturing cost and not sales prices.

The foreign manufacturer can very well bulk-manufacture at a low cost and sell it at a high profit margin to foreign buyers, like an iPhone. What @Advaidhya Tiwari is saying is correct. The US bloats its currency so it appears like American and foreign users are getting the weapon at the same price, but the American Army is not affected by the bloating since the currency is printed inhouse. This bloating is entirely subsidized by other countries whose currency is getting devalued to shoulder the burden of the forex manipulation. In layman terms, the foreign buyers are paying not just for the weapons they buy, but also for the weapons Americans buy. All their have to do is print more $ and our forex reserves are depleted every time we import more. Forex depletion affects other things like food security and energy security. These are the things governments have to balance while making purchase decisions, that's why these decisions are always political.

When everything is inhouse, and manufactured in bulk, it becomes very very cheap for the manufacturer (he can still keep it costly for the buyer, like Israel and USA does to us). For inhouse bulk production, one gets to shave off the profit margins applied at every stage of the weapon, from raw material to final product. A simple AK47's price fluctuates between 3k rupees and 50k rupees based on which vendor you buy it from. The quality difference is marginal, but the price difference is exponential. The price difference is purely a margin play. The more they manufacture, the cheaper it is for them. Consequently, ex-Soviet countries where all the manufacturing plants were originally established in a large scale, were able to mass manufacture AK variants and offer better deals for the same AK compared to the parent Russian org which invented it.

If Indian artillery is not up to the mark, forget DRDO, the Army can handpick an existing foreign artillery system and let Indian companies mass manufacture it. If the end user wants money, let them ask the govt. to do a direct bribe transfer to the bank accounts of Army officials, instead of misleading the nation and then pretending to be offended when civilians point out the anomalies. What is the case being made out here? that the tax payer is an idiot, OFB is stupid, DRDO is a thief, the elected govt. is retarded, the cabinet committee on security is dumb, PM is dumb, NSA is also dumb, but only the trigger puller has amassed all wisdom? This will lead to an Avinash Chander type episode. Even he thought he was infallible. Kept stalling the ASAT project, finally Modi picked him by the collar and threw him outside.