MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Sancho]

............................

Another BIG move by Adani into the Indian aviation sector!

...Through its stake, Adani has accessed Alpha Design Technologies' proven capabilities in aero structures for helicopters and fighter aircraft, as well as in defence electronics. Alpha makes one-third of the structure of the Sukhoi-30 fighters being made at HAL, and one of three main surface structures of the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas. ...

 

[vampyrbladez]

Another BIG move by Adani into the Indian aviation sector!

Now cry "Mudi neh scam kiya!".

 

[Sancho]

By that logic IAF has 83 MK1A and 110 MMRCA and 114 ish FGFA with 272 Su 30 MKI+ under order. Confirmed orders are all that matter!

You seem to have missed, that FGFA was cancelled by the govt, just as MMRCA 1.0, that LCA MK1A is stuck for 1 year now and MMRCA 2.0 delayed into the 2nd term. So when we talk fighter orders, there are only 36 in the last nearly 5 years, as suppose to 82 x MKIs + 40 x LCA IOC/FOC. And the 400+ aircrafts are also all orders (C17, C130, Dhruv, Mi 17, PC7, Hawks...) and remember, that's the time we thought IAF had it bad!

 

[Sancho]

Now cry "Mudi neh scam kiya!".

At least use some common sense and try to understand, what this means. Adani is now the only major privat Indian company, that is putting it's own money on the line, which brings huge potential for India and the aviation field, be it civil or defence.

 

[Sancho]

Some more news about MMRCA contenders, upgrades and interesting customer experience of Thai AF with Gripen C/D and Saab.






...

 

[vampyrbladez]

You seem to have missed, that FGFA was cancelled by the govt, just as MMRCA 1.0, that LCA MK1A is stuck for 1 year now and MMRCA 2.0 delayed into the 2nd term. So when we talk fighter orders, there are only 36 in the last nearly 5 years, as suppose to 82 x MKIs + 40 x LCA IOC/FOC. And the 400+ aircrafts are also all orders (C17, C130, Dhruv, Mi 17, PC7, Hawks...) and remember, that's the time we thought IAF had it bad!

Ah, the good old days of dalals looting our defence sector while Lutyens babus made deals at the India International Centre over third class chakhna and imported whisky!

I'll dissect your points here:

1> FGFA - deal ongoing as no official cancellation has been carried out! India will join once below parameters have been met.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...oin-at-a-later-stage/articleshow/64981021.cms

https://sputniknews.com/military/201808191067320605-russia-india-5th-generation-fighter-jet/

Reasons: Cost Escalation ; 2nd Stage Engine not certified ; Radar integration incomplete

2> MMRCA 1.0 - Congressi dalals held up deal since 2011. As reports are coming out , because Eurofighter was not selected, deal was left unsigned.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...o-win-deal-for-eurofighter-1424921-2019-01-06

https://www.livemint.com/Politics/b...n-20-bn-fighter-jet-deal-only-under-next.html

Reasons: Cost Escalation ; 18 + 108 of which new deal allows for two times more flyaway (36) with RFI for 110 more released.

3> LCA MK1A - 83 ordered but due to lack of indigenisation a basic aircraft has astronomical costs.

Sources ruled out the possibility of any firm order during the tenure of the current government even though they have pushed the Tejas programme.

Sources said that HAL has worked out a price of Rs 466 crore for a basic version of the Tejas Mark 1A aircraft and the MoD feels it can be cheaper.

For instance, the Rafale basic aircraft that India is buying is priced at Rs 670 crore.

However, even though the price of the Tejas Mark 1A is high in comparison to a Rafale, the government is said to be keen on the programme because of the experience and ability it can bring to the country.

From dalal ecosystem aka The Print. No link so no clicks.

Reasons: Cost Escalation ; Lack of indigenisation

4> Miscellaneous Orders :

Apache and Chinooks :

http://www.bharatdefencekavach.com/...ase-of-apache-and-chinook-choppers/51186.html

Dhruv ALH

https://www.livemint.com/Politics/D...lears-acquisition-proposals-worth-Rs2100.html

NUH


C 130J Replacement

https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/...es-for-the-indian-air-force-10879-976923.html

I could place many more examples but stick to Pappu and Co. worship. It's hilarious how hard you try!

 

[Sancho]

............................

 

[vampyrbladez]

At least use some common sense and try to understand, what this means. Adani is now the only major privat Indian company, that is putting it's own money on the line, which brings huge potential for India and the aviation field, be it civil or defence.

Every company is doing this. This is the beginning of a MiC that was much needed.

 

[Sancho]

I could place many more examples but

Lol all you did is confirm what I said! There are no other fighter orders than 36 Rafales!

Great examples, just no understanding of the facts.

 

[Sancho]

Every company is doing this.

Not even close, Reliance didn't even had own land to build a manufacturing site and needed Dassault funding for everything. TATA is focused on manufacturing either of offsets, or for foreign companies, no investment into R&D for the aviation sector (contrary to the IFV or howitzer fields), Mahindra is the only one so far, that at least invested into civil projects, which is why we are so dependent on PSUs for any kind of aircrafts.

If Adani keeps up this way, we can finally see some progress and more hope for future fighter, or regional aircraft projects. That's why I said, try to understand it first, before you jump into flawed conclusions.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Lol all you did is confirm what I said! There are no other fighter orders than 36 Rafales!

Great examples, just no understanding of the facts.

So where did this 400 figure come from? Your dose of Pappu Mutra seems to be affecting you. Again as I said orders not confirmed are not to be counted. Even clearance for FOC for Tejas came this December.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Not even close, Reliance didn't even had own land to build a manufacturing site and needed Dassault funding for everything. TATA is focused on manufacturing either of offsets, or for foreign companies, no investment into R&D for the aviation sector (contrary to the IFV or howitzer fields), Mahindra is the only one so far, that at least invested into civil projects, which is why we are so dependent on PSUs for any kind of aircrafts.

If Adani keeps up this way, we can finally see some progress and more hope for future fighter, or regional aircraft projects. That's why I said, try to understand it first, before you jump into flawed conclusions.

Reliance -

In an exclusive chat with CNBC-TV18 in Paris, company CEO Eric Trappier said Dassault picked Reliance as its partner because the Anil Ambani-led company had land near an airfield on the outskirts of Nagpur, where they could set up a production facility.

The Anil Ambani firm was picked to fulfil the offset obligation of the contract despite having no experience in building or maintaining aircrafts, but Trappier insisted that the real estate was the prime consideration in awarding the offset contract.

https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/...es-for-the-indian-air-force-10879-976923.html

TATA -

Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) on Wednesday signed a framework agreement to collaborate in aerospace and defence manufacturing and potential integrated systems development opportunities, including unmanned aerial vehicles.

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/48083246.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst


http://www.tata.com/article/inside/Batting-for-defence

Tata Sons today said it is in the process of consolidating its various businesses across aerospace and defence sectors together under a single entity – Tata Aerospace & Defence (Tata A&D). The necessary statutory and regulatory approvals are in the process of being obtained. Tata A&D proposes to leverage its full range of expertise, experience, and capabilities from across the group related to land mobility solutions, aerospace, weapon systems, sensors and command, control, communication, computers and intelligence (C4I).

Several companies proposed to be forming part of Tata A&D already have strong, established partnerships with leading aerospace and defence firms and are part of the global supply chain. In some instances, they are also a global single source provider. It is proposed that Tata A&D will also be deeply invested in the development of indigenous platforms uniquely suited for the Indian defence forces, which is central to Tata A&D’s long-term strategy. In addition to the growing list of joint ventures and collaborations with leading global equipment manufacturers, Tata A&D proposes to bring together over 6,000 employees, and have production facilities in the states of Telangana, Karnataka, Jharkhand, and Maharashtra.

http://www.tata.com/media/releasesinside/tata-sons-aerospace-defence

Mahindra -

Shukla, Group President and CEO, Mahindra Aerospace and Defence Sector, recently led the group to India’s first 49% foreign direct investment in defence. Telephonics, part of US-listed Griffon Company, increased its stake in a joint venture with the group to 49% in September.

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/49666317.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

Go break your bangles elsewhere. At DFI we have in - depth information and can't be fooled so easily. Tell your ecosystem to try harder!

 

[Sancho]

Also interesting, EW requirements from the MMRCA 1.0 / Rafale deal, which we now can compare to the requirements of the MMRCA 2.0 RFI:

Seems like they are lower, than in the initial tender. Neither LWR, TD, or HBJ are required anymore.
https://postimg.cc/SnJZJybR

 

[Sancho]

So where did this 400 figure come from?

Proper research of available informations and understanding facts. Highly recommended.

Go break your bangles elsewhere. At DFI we have in - depth information and can't be fooled so easily. Tell your ecosystem to try harder!

Only more proof, that you lack basic underdstanding and radomly posting things, is a common sign for having no arguments.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Also interesting, EW requirements from the MMRCA 1.0 / Rafale deal, which we now can compare to the requirements of the MMRCA 2.0 RFI:

Seems like they are lower, than in the initial tender. Neither LWR, TD, or HBJ are required anymore.

There is a clear addition of such systems under ASPJ (HBJ) and nowadays LWR is part of RWR. See MLD of F 22 as an example.

Besides Rafale ASPJ aka SPECTRA system is all encompassing!

SPECTRA (Self-Protection Equipment to Counter Threats for RAFALE Aircraft) has been jointly developed by MBDA and Thales to provide an integrated self-protection system for the new Rafale combat aircraft now in service with the French Air Force and Navy.

The SPECTRA integrated electronic warfare suite provides long-range detection, identification and accurate localisation of infrared, electromagnetic and laser threats. The system incorporates, radar warning, laser warning and missile warning receivers for threat detection plus a phased array radar jammer and a decoy dispenser for threat countering.

It also includes a dedicated management unit for data fusion and reaction decision.

https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/spectra/

 

[vampyrbladez]

Proper research of available informations and understanding facts. Highly recommended.

Burden of proof rests with people who put up nonsense arguments like you. Face the facts EF 2000 is dead!

Only more proof, that you lack basic underdstanding and radomly posting things, is a common sign for having no arguments.

Tell the ecosystem to try harder. :bounce: Your contradictory messaging is what brings you down!

 

[Sancho]

Besides Rafale ASPJ aka SPECTRA system is all encompassing!

And again, posting links without understanding.
SPECTRA doesn't have it all, that's why EW upgrades were a big part of the ISE in the Rafale deal. It was the best EWS in the MMRCA 1.0, but IAF back then evidently required more.
The reduced EW requirements, therfore means, that those upgrades might not be necessary for additional Rafales, or other types.

Burden of proof rests with people who put up nonsense arguments like you.

I have no problem with proving it, because I know what I'm talking about and don't just spam unrelated stuff, to pretend I have an argument. As I said, I did my research long ago, you still need to do a basic one, to understand more of the things you claim. Do that and we can talk, otherwise it's just a waste of time and I am more interested in seeking and sharing infos wrt the tender and the participating fighters.

 

[Prashant12]

Some more news about MMRCA contenders, upgrades and interesting customer experience of Thai AF with Gripen C/D and Saab.






...

With Finmeccanica blacklisted, EF & Gripen have no chance in MMRCA.

Eurofighter is designed by a consortium of multinational defence companies from UK, Germany, Italy and Spain. Italian firm Finmeccanica which makes AgustaWestland choppers owns 21 per cent shares in the Eurofighter consortium.

 

[republic_roi97]

Just because you don't know the facts, doesn't mean they are not true.

Prove your allegations, stop wasting time in word play, I have studied all the facts, and I don't know what facts did you study, perhaps the ones that are fabricated daily by the opposition. You're raising questions on our judicial system, I'm saying that they don't come to a conclusion without enough validation of all the evidences, how hard is it to fathom for you guys ? As I said, if you have anything concrete, do share it with us and mail it to the opposition, help them prove.

 

[jackprince]

We thought it was bad under the UPA government, although much of the bad reputation was just public perception. But in the last 4.5 years, we saw that it actually wasn't that bad what our forces got between 2004 and 2014, compared to the bad situation they and MoD is in now.
What makes it even worse is, that UPA managed to support our forces with critical equipment (MKIs, P8s, C17s, C130s, PC7s, Dhruvs, LCAs...), during global financial and economic crisis years. The current government had the luxury to benefit from global recovery, low fuel prices and stability (at least until Trump came in) and still managed to show such meager performance in defence spending, or defence procurements. That's not the support our forces deserve!

The whole MMRCA disaster also is a proof of how bad the NDA government is handling defence.

Dec 2014 - DM suggests MKIs instead of MMRCA

Feb 2015 - ACM insists on MMRCA, not necessarily Rafale

April 2015 - PM announce the opposite of what the ACM wanted

July 2015 - MMRCA 1.0 cancelled

Sept 2016 - Rafale deal signed

Oct 2016 - EoI sent out for SE MMRCAs

May 2017 - SPM approved, which is the base of the new tender

Oct 2017 - ACM insists on fast issuing of SE MMRCA RFI

April 2018 - MoD makes the opposite of what the ACM wanted and issues RFI for MMRCA 2.0

Not only is the government not following IAFs advice, but also is completely clueless on how to deal with this requirement, which results in the back and forth we can see. Add the fact that you have 3 DMs, that basically are powerless, since decisions on defence are evidently taken by PMO and you have maximum confusion.

So don't put too much hope on any meaningful coming out of MMRCA 2.0 anytime soon.

Pidi suddenly finding love for UPA performance on defence!!!

what do you say about border infrastructure development at Indo-China border including building roads, airfields etc. Do you think it comes cheap? Or do you believe that buying expensive equipments alone make a strong defence?

Btw, read this
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw3yrnh9-W3Lwm7Br_dh5RAJ&ust=1547703489193052

Then read this

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw0Ceq7QEHblJb5SPDWIxvNi&ust=1547703594135029

Do you really think people here are so ignornt that they will believe you?

The UPA fucking could not purchase BPJs for our boys!!!!

Btw, Global economic slowdown made little effect on Indian economy, if you are so ignorant about it. In fact, the relatively stable Indian economy vis-a-vis poor global economy had actually helped the procurements instead of hampering.

Also, defence procurement is not like marketing in a grocery stores. The procurement done during UPA was paid for by NDA.