MMRCA 2.0: News & Discussions

[Sancho]

Some nice shots of the Mig 35

 

[Sancho]

Things like this are not cut and dry. Rafale has become a political football and will continue to be so. Add American pressure and that has serious economic consequences, the picture ibecomes much more complicated.

Things are not over, since nothing changed!

The SC didn't looked into the issues and admitted to have no job in the whole matter anyway.

The government still wants a make in India deal, just as they are saying since 2015, but fail to start the tender.

The defence budget is low and the economy not in the double digits as hoped, which makes funds for IAF the prime issue.

And not to mention that the DPP clauses on responsibility and liquidated damages were not changed by the NDA government, so Dassault would still have to comply to them if they would win MMRCA 2.0, which as the government once again confirmed, was the key reason for the impasse and cancellation of MMRCA 1.0 in the first place!

 

[republic_roi97]

The SC didn't looked into the issues and admitted to have no job in the whole matter anyway.

Read the judgement again, they studied everything that was given to them, they wouldn't have came to a judgement if there wasn't any sort of investigation. The deal is as clear as possible.

 

[Sancho]

Read the judgement again, they studied everything that was given to them, they wouldn't have came to a judgement if there wasn't any sort of investigation. The deal is as clear as possible.

And there is the problem! They only looked into the government info's and didn't bothered to independently verify or compare them (which is also why they got embarrassed by the CAG issue now). The question raised on costs were in comparison to the MMRCA negotiations, so if you don't look into info's on that, how can you make a judgement on it?
And the same is the case on nearly all raised questions, they simply rejected them, without looking into it, or even worse, by making up excuses (minor deviations from procedure).

 

[Sancho]

Adani setting up first facilities in the aviation field

............................

 

[republic_roi97]

And there is the problem! They only looked into the government info's and didn't bothered to independently verify or compare them (which is also why they got embarrassed by the CAG issue now). The question raised on costs were in comparison to the MMRCA negotiations, so if you don't look into info's on that, how can you make a judgement on it?
And the same is the case on nearly all raised questions, they simply rejected them, without looking into it, or even worse, by making up excuses (minor deviations from procedure).

Ok, first of all, Supreme Court cannot make decisions on the proofs available, they will do everything thing that they deem important to verify the evidence, its a supreme court's judgement man not some panchayat. Don't you think that they wouldn't verify the facts available ? They did verify it themselves and then came to the judgement, I have a long list of my relatives who are either judges or lawyers, my father himself is a lawyer bruh.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Ok, first of all, Supreme Court cannot make decisions on the proofs available, they will do everything thing that they deem important to verify the evidence, its a supreme court's judgement man not some panchayat. Don't you think that they wouldn't verify the facts available ? They did verify it themselves and then came to the judgement, I have a long list of my relatives who are either judges or lawyers, my father himself is a lawyer bruh.

I wouldn't be surprised if @Sancho turns out to be Ajai Shukla in real life.

 

[Indrajit]

Things are not over, since nothing changed!

The SC didn't looked into the issues and admitted to have no job in the whole matter anyway.

The government still wants a make in India deal, just as they are saying since 2015, but fail to start the tender.

The defence budget is low and the economy not in the double digits as hoped, which makes funds for IAF the prime issue.

And not to mention that the DPP clauses on responsibility and liquidated damages were not changed by the NDA government, so Dassault would still have to comply to them if they would win MMRCA 2.0, which as the government once again confirmed, was the key reason for the impasse and cancellation of MMRCA 1.0 in the first place!

There is simply no money nor does it look like there will be in the near future. This government has failed the armed forces just like the UPA government . Now with sops being lined up, whether by this government or any crazy one coming after 2019, capital purchases by the forces are looking more and more like a mirage.

As for the tender for the IAF, Rafale is a difficult sell because it’s been politicised beyond measure and because the Americans are going to ask for their pound of flesh. Some here would like to think that American pressure will have no effect but I simply don’t see the point in putting tens of billions of dollars of our exports at risk. That however is little more than a chimera at this point since funds for any major purchase is non existent and doesn’t look like changing any time soon. The defence situation is really precarious and it’s one of my major disappointments with this government. We have had 10 years of nothing with the UPA and too little with the NDA. Reading the NYT report on China-Pak deal on new fighters only increases the anxiousness level.. We are on a defence forum and almost no discussion takes place about this, sad....

 

[Sancho]

Don't you think that they wouldn't verify the facts available ?

Until this judgment was rushed through I did, but now we "know", that they didn't!

- they didn't verified the CAG report info's the government gave them and simply copy & paste them into their judgement

- they admitted that there are deviations in the procedures, but avoided to investigate them properly, therefore no verification

- they rejected to look into the cut down of numbers, by saying it's not on them to take decisions on that issue (which nobody asked them to) => no verification

- they ignored the Hollande allegations completely, by saying it was only an interview => no verification

All this makes it evident, that the SC had no interest in looking into the matters, or verifying any informations at all. They should have rejected the petitions right away, if they wanted to stay out of it. But creating the whole show, even asking the government and petitioners for specific infos and then simply rejecting them, took away all credibility.

 

[Sancho]

I wouldn't be surprised if @Sancho turns out to be Ajai Shukla in real life.

That would be funny, since I'm constantly calling out the factual mistakes in his articles.

 

[vampyrbladez]

That would be funny, since I'm constantly calling out the factual mistakes in his articles.

Shukla is a shill. BTW EF 2000 is probably dead long term. New 5th Gen EU fighter jet program in the works.

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...set-to-join-franco-german-stealth-jet-program

 

[Sancho]

There is simply no money nor does it look like there will be in the near future. This government has failed the armed forces just like the UPA government

We thought it was bad under the UPA government, although much of the bad reputation was just public perception. But in the last 4.5 years, we saw that it actually wasn't that bad what our forces got between 2004 and 2014, compared to the bad situation they and MoD is in now.
What makes it even worse is, that UPA managed to support our forces with critical equipment (MKIs, P8s, C17s, C130s, PC7s, Dhruvs, LCAs...), during global financial and economic crisis years. The current government had the luxury to benefit from global recovery, low fuel prices and stability (at least until Trump came in) and still managed to show such meager performance in defence spending, or defence procurements. That's not the support our forces deserve!

The whole MMRCA disaster also is a proof of how bad the NDA government is handling defence.

Dec 2014 - DM suggests MKIs instead of MMRCA

Feb 2015 - ACM insists on MMRCA, not necessarily Rafale

April 2015 - PM announce the opposite of what the ACM wanted

July 2015 - MMRCA 1.0 cancelled

Sept 2016 - Rafale deal signed

Oct 2016 - EoI sent out for SE MMRCAs

May 2017 - SPM approved, which is the base of the new tender

Oct 2017 - ACM insists on fast issuing of SE MMRCA RFI

April 2018 - MoD makes the opposite of what the ACM wanted and issues RFI for MMRCA 2.0

Not only is the government not following IAFs advice, but also is completely clueless on how to deal with this requirement, which results in the back and forth we can see. Add the fact that you have 3 DMs, that basically are powerless, since decisions on defence are evidently taken by PMO and you have maximum confusion.

So don't put too much hope on any meaningful coming out of MMRCA 2.0 anytime soon.

 

[Sancho]

BTW EF 2000 is probably dead long term. New 5th Gen EU fighter jet program in the works.

Yes, that's the replacement for EF and Rafale, beyond 2040.

 

[vampyrbladez]

We thought it was bad under the UPA government, although much of the bad reputation was just public perception. But in the last 4.5 years, we saw that it actually wasn't that bad what our forces got between 2004 and 2014, compared to the bad situation they and MoD is in now.
What makes it even worse is, that UPA managed to support our forces with critical equipment (MKIs, P8s, C17s, C130s, PC7s, Dhruvs, LCAs...), during global financial and economic crisis years. The current government had the luxury to benefit from global recovery, low fuel prices and stability (at least until Trump came in) and still managed to show such meager performance in defence spending, or defence procurements. That's not the support our forces deserve!

The whole MMRCA disaster also is a proof of how bad the NDA government is handling defence.

Dec 2014 - DM suggests MKIs instead of MMRCA

Feb 2015 - ACM insists on MMRCA, not necessarily Rafale

April 2015 - PM announce the opposite of what the ACM wanted

July 2015 - MMRCA 1.0 cancelled

Sept 2016 - Rafale deal signed

Oct 2016 - EoI sent out for SE MMRCAs

May 2017 - SPM approved, which is the base of the new tender

Oct 2017 - ACM insists on fast issuing of SE MMRCA RFI

April 2018 - MoD makes the opposite of what the ACM wanted and issues RFI for MMRCA 2.0

Not only is the government not following IAFs advice, but also is completely clueless on how to deal with this requirement, which results in the back and forth we can see. Add the fact that you have 3 DMs, that basically are powerless, since decisions on defence are evidently taken by PMO and you have maximum confusion.

So don't put too much hope on any meaningful coming out of MMRCA 2.0 anytime soon.

Modi got more done in last 4.5 years compared to Saint Anthony. With more follow on orders on the way, expect more good news!

 

[republic_roi97]

- they didn't verified the CAG report info's the government gave them and simply copy & paste them into their judgement

- they admitted that there are deviations in the procedures, but avoided to investigate them properly, therefore no verification

- they rejected to look into the cut down of numbers, by saying it's not on them to take decisions on that issue (which nobody asked them to) => no verification

- they ignored the Hollande allegations completely, by saying it was only an interview => no verification

All of the above is factually incorrect, you'd have a hard time to prove all these allegations because these are just false. Supreme court never comes to a judgement without any investigation of any evidence, facts provided to them from any side. They investigated all the evidences, cross checked it with Air Force and other authorities involved and then came to a conclusion, they did study everything but refused to "talk about the price", they did study the prices, when everything they said about the procedure, offset partners being clear and corruption free, that is it, nail in the coffin, if someone has strong evidence with facts then why not to go to supreme court and sue, that is what government is saying time and again, but opposition is just too afraid, because its all just a lie and fake propaganda against the government, grow up and leave it behind, help the opposition if you have any fact against the deal.

 

[veerJI]

All of the above is factually incorrect, you'd have a hard time to prove all these allegations because these are just false. Supreme court never comes to a judgement without any investigation of any evidence, facts provided to them from any side. They investigated all the evidences, cross checked it with Air Force and other authorities involved and then came to a conclusion, they did study everything but refused to "talk about the price", they did study the prices, when everything they said about the procedure, offset partners being clear and corruption free, that is it, nail in the coffin, if someone has strong evidence with facts then why not to go to supreme court and sue, that is what government is saying time and again, but opposition is just too afraid, because its all just a lie and fake propaganda against the government, grow up and leave it behind, help the opposition if you have any fact against the deal.

sancho is a congressi pidi.......just ignore him...............

 

[wairoa]

Great photos and interesting thread.

 

[Sancho]

Modi got more done in last 4.5 years compared to Saint Anthony. With more follow on orders on the way, expect more good news!

Definitly not in the first term, but let's hope he does better in the second. Fighters alone we are now at 122 vs 36 against him, aircrafts orders for IAF in total for that 10 years were above 400, let's see if he gets their too.

 

[Sancho]

All of the above is factually incorrect, you'd have a hard time to prove all these allegations because these are just false.

Just because you don't know the facts, doesn't mean they are not true.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Definitly not in the first term, but let's hope he does better in the second. Fighters alone we are now at 122 vs 36 against him, aircrafts orders for IAF in total for that 10 years were above 400, let's see if he gets their too.

By that logic IAF has 83 MK1A and 110 MMRCA and 114 ish FGFA with 272 Su 30 MKI+ under order. Confirmed orders are all that matter!