Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

Pulkit

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Re: Scrapping Rafale Deal Now Good Or Bad...

Why Rafale is a Big Mistake | idrw.org


Why would India buy the Rafale combat aircraft rejected by every other interested country—Brazil, Canada, the Netherlands, Norway, South Korea, Singapore, and even the cash-rich but not particularly discriminating Saudi Arabia and Morocco?
The French foreign minister Laurent Fabius's one-point agenda when he visited New Delhi was to seal the deal for Rafale, a warplane apparently fitting IAF's idea of a Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in the service's unique typology, which includes "light" and "heavy" fighter planes as well, used by no other air force in the world. Alas, the first whiff of corruption led the previous defence minister, A K Antony, to seize up and shut shop, stranding the deal at the price negotiation committee stage. It is this stoppage Fabius sought to unclog.
France's desperation is understandable. Absent the India deal, the Rafale production line will close down, the future of its aerospace sector will dim, and the entire edifice of French industrial R&D sector based on small and medium-sized firms—a version of the enormously successful German "Mittelstand" model—engaged in producing cutting-edge technologies could unravel, and grease France's slide to second-rate technology power-status.
More immediately, it will lead to a marked increase in the unit cost of the aircraft—reportedly of as much as $5-$10 million dollars to the French Air Force, compelling it to limit the number it inducts. With no international customers and France itself unable to afford the pricey Rafale, the French military aviation industry will be at a crossroads. So, for Paris a lot is at stake and in India the French have found an easy mark, a country willing to pay excessively for an aircraft the IAF can well do without.
Consider the monies at stake. Let's take the example of Brazil, our BRICS partner. For 36 Rafales the acquisition cost, according to Brazilian media, was $8.2 billion plus an additional $4 billion for short-period maintenance contracts, amounting to nearly $340 million per aircraft in this package and roughly $209 million as the price tag for a single Rafale without maintenance support. Brazil insisted on transfer of technology (ToT) and was told it had to pay a whole lot extra for it, as also for the weapons for its Rafales. But the Brazilian air force had doubts about the quality of the AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar enabling the aircraft to switch quickly from air-to-air to air-to-ground mode in flight, and about the helmet-mounted heads-up-display. Too high a price and too many problems convinced the government of president Dilma Rousseff that the Rafale was not worth the trouble or the money and junked the deal, opting for the Swedish Gripen NG instead.
During the Congress party's rule the Indian government did not blink at the prospective bill for the Rafale, which more than doubled from $10 billion in 2009 to some $22 billion today, and which figure realistically will exceed $30 billion, or $238 million per aircraft, at a minimum. But India, unbeknownst to most of us, is apparently a terribly rich country, with money to burn! Meanwhile, the United Kingdom, an apparently poorer state or at least one more careful with its money, is blanching at the $190 million price tag for each of the 60 Lockheed F-35Bs (vertical take-off, technologically more complex, variant of the air force model)—a full generation ahead of the Rafale—ordered for the first of the Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth-class 65,000-tonne aircraft carriers.
The prohibitive cost of the French aircraft supposedly made finance-cum-defence minister Arun Jaitley apprehensive. He did the right thing, as is rumoured, of revising the order downwards from 126 aircraft to 80 or so Rafales. The IAF headquarters pre-emptively acquiesced in the decision to save the deal. However, if this change was affected in the hope of proportionately reducing the cost, it will be belied. Because in contracts involving high-value combat aircraft, the size of the order does not much affect the unit price, the cost of spares and service support, and of ToT! This is evident from the rough estimates of the per aircraft cost to Brazil of $209 million for 36 Rafales compared with the $238 million for 126 of the same aircraft to India!
Because New Delhi has been inclined to make India a military "great power" on the basis of imported armaments—a policy that's a boon to supplier states as it generates employment and new technologies in these countries, and sustains their defence industries, a confident French official told me with respect to another deal that "India will pay the price". Considering the various negatives of the proposed deal and the long-term national interest Jaitley would do well to nix the Rafale transaction altogether.
The bureaucratic interest of the IAF prompts it to exaggerate wrong threats and talk of declining fighter assets. But it will not tell the defence minister about the logistics hell routinely faced by frontline squadrons in operations owing to the mindboggling diversity of combat aircraft in its inventory, a problem only the Rafale acquisition will exacerbate and, hence, about the urgent need to rationalise the force structure, ideally to Su-30s, the indigenous Tejas Mk-1 for short-range air defence, Tejas Mk-II as MMRCA, and the Su-50 PAK FA as fifth-generation fighter. Nor will the department of defence production officials disclose to Jaitley that the ToT provisions in arms contracts are a fraudulent farce because, while the foreign suppliers pocket billions of dollars, no core technologies, such as source codes (millions of lines of software) and flight control laws, are ever transferred. And that the local defence industry monopolised by defence public sector units (DPSUs) is incapable of absorbing and innovating even such technology as is, in fact, relayed to it because it only assembles aircraft from imported kits.
Terminating the Rafale deal will be disruptive but sending the message to the military, the DPSUs, the defence ministry bureaucracy, and foreign companies salivating for rich, one-sided, contracts that the Narendra Modi government is determined to make a new start and conduct defence business differently, is more important.
 

Hari Sud

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Rafale deal must be canceled. Instead an Indian solution like LCA II be found. All those Marshals who have been supporting Rafale deal should be given retirement papers.

We cannot be dependent on others for our military supplies. Money saved should go back into Army, Air Force and Navy to upgrade better.
 

roma

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Rafale deal must be canceled. Instead an Indian solution like LCA II be found. All those Marshals who have been supporting Rafale deal should be given retirement papers.

We cannot be dependent on others for our military supplies. Money saved should go back into Army, Air Force and Navy to upgrade better.
IS LCA Mk 2 really tried and tested as Rafael is ? can we get mk2 production out in time ?
or will we have a situation where we have neither Rafael nor mk2 and therefore an open airspace ?

I'm not taking sides - just that if we cancel Rafael we may not have a substitute in time .

So far NDA has not touched on the topic but Rafael and air defence is vital and thus far
the new Defence Minister has not made comment on a vital issue
 
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pmaitra

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Can anyone please refer to the existing discussion regarding Rafale?

Enough points have been made about Rafale. Could those points be countered? How is this a "big mistake?" As a matter of fact, how is this a "mistake" at all?
 

angeldude13

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

Can anyone please refer to the existing discussion regarding Rafale?

Enough points have been made about Rafale. Could those points be countered? How is this a "big mistake?" As a matter of fact, how is this a "mistake" at all?
Paying 20 billions for a 4.5 generation twin engined Fighter aircraft is not a good deal either.

Replacing single engine Aircraft with twin engine is also not logical.

Twin engine radar means more maintenance cost.
 

pmaitra

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abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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Jagdish58

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

If current govt is sensible they should cancel Rafale & use that fund in AMCA & FGFA, because China soon or later is going to induct J-20 & J-31 we can't counter those with Rafale can we??

To fill up the numbers in IAF sqaudron LCA MK1 & LCAMK2 is the right choice

but focus should be on speeding up AMCA & FGFA project :thumb:
 

Anony86

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

I have told it many a time in another forum, yet once again.

Rafale is just a fancy deal, because there is nothing what Rafale can do which we at present can't do or our future inducts won't be able to do

Let me go over one by one to all those fancy claims about Rafale:

Range:- Many claims Rafale range to be 3700+km which is a bullshit. In the recent flight, Rafale covered a little less than 10000km with 3 drop tanks and required as many as five fueling, which brings down the range to be 2000km with 3 drop tanks and no weapon load. In addition to this, if the same range would have been covered in Indian hot weather conditions, the range would decrease further by 200km-300km per flight before it would require refueling. The range of LCA disclosed as per ADA is 1700km. You would find no difference in range there. On the contrary, Rafale would require more fuel to cover the same distance as LCA Tejas.

Deep Strike Mission:- This is again a falacy, that Rafale can be used for deep strike mission, bcoz in today's highly defended airspace of adversaries, it is virtually impossible or to put it in better term, no air-force (IAF, PLAAF, PAF) put their aircraft for this mission and this role has been taken by cruise missiles. Apart from air to air warfare(interception & air-dominance), Fighter aircraft are used to give support to ground troops and to stop adversaries advancement both of which doesn't require deep strike capability.

Stealth:- Better to say it as lower RCS or who detect the other first. Under no circumstances, and under no flying configuration can Rafale RCS be lower or let say significantly lower than Tejas, because once the external weapons are loaded, RCS increases significantly. Yes, one may say that Rafale will detect it's adversaries before Tejas does, but if we simplify to who our adversaries are and what are the type of fighters they have in their inventory, we can easily conclude that though Rafale may detect them before Tejas, but in 80% to 90% of the cases Tejas will atleast detect it's adversary first. And moreover in real time sitution, ground based radars and AESA nullify this difference either.

Avionics:- It's true that Rafale is superior than Tejas in avionics, but one has to understand that to kill a bird, we just need a decent rifle and not a AK-47 gun i.e. something at par or superior than our adversaries. Tejas is still ahead. People are making their own assumptions, but no country so far has gone ahead to praise the AESA radar on Rafale nose. Surely it will be better than what India may achieve, but it is world leader.

Speed:- Some falsely claim that Rafale can supercruise at Mach 1.4 . Before making these stupid claims, they should have taken care of it's max speed of Mach 1.8. A fighter which can supercruise at Mach 1.4 will have it's max speed close to Mach 2.2 . No one knows whether Rafale reached Mach 1.1 at sea level in Indian hot weather which Tejas has. Though speed is not a main factor and the only reason I raised this is to silent the false critics going on against Tejas compared to other flying machines.

Transfer Of Technology:- This is the biggest lie. No country ever transfer all the key technologies and importantly even if they wish to never ever everything can get absorbed by the receiving country. Moreover by the time, the critical technology such as Aesa radars and engine, would get transfer, the technology itself will be about to become obsolete. Just imagine, engine technology get transferred completely in the year 2028-2030. What will be the use then. I am sure with little extra investment in our R&D, we will have a far better product by 2025-2030 than M-88. Similar is the case with other critical Techs as well.

Timeline of Induction:- Even if today MOD start working towards sealing this deal, it will not be done before the financial year end. And if we consider from 2015 onwards, we will have our first squadron not before 2019. And there after 8 aircraft per year on an average, it will take HAL 13 years to deliver the remaining aircraft with the first squadron coming out from HAL facility not before 2022. And if we look, by then Tejas mk2 will easily achieve it's FOC and HAL will then able to roll out a squadron of Tejas mk2 every year taking together new facility which will be set for Tejas mk2 and upgradation of Tejas mk1 facility. And by 2030 we will able to induct 9 squadron of Tejas mk2.

Price:- Price of Tejas mk2 will be atleast one-fourth of Rafale. At $10 billion we can have 10 squadron of Tejas and with another $10 billion world class facility for future development and R&D. And we can also direct this money towards early completion of AMCA


And there are many more points, but not feeling like typing any further....
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

I have told it many a time in another forum, yet once again.

Rafale is just a fancy deal, because there is nothing what Rafale can do which we at present can't do or our future inducts won't be able to do

Let me go over one by one to all those fancy claims about Rafale:

Range:- Many claims Rafale range to be 3700+km which is a bullshit. In the recent flight, Rafale covered a little less than 10000km with 3 drop tanks and required as many as five fueling, which brings down the range to be 2000km with 3 drop tanks and no weapon load. In addition to this, if the same range would have been covered in Indian hot weather conditions, the range would decrease further by 200km-300km per flight before it would require refueling. The range of LCA disclosed as per ADA is 1700km. You would find no difference in range there. On the contrary, Rafale would require more fuel to cover the same distance as LCA Tejas.
This is from Brazil


Do note that Gripen NG has one full tonne more internal fuel than LCA.

This is from Saab.
Gripen for Brazil - The Fighter
Thanks to its increased fuel capacity, the Gripen NG in the Combat Air Patrol configuration achieves a combat radius of 700 nm (nautical miles), or 1.300 km, from the base of operations, with more than 30 minutes "on station". It has a ferry range of 2200 nm (4.000 km).
So, yeah, it has 40% more range than LCA Mk1.

And this is what the Swiss think.



Do you see the Gripen beaten by the Rafale in every category? Or should I explain how the graph works?

Next,


Do note the points given to Rafale for endurance compared to Gripen NG, when NG is said to carry ~3.5 tonnes of fuel internally in comparison to LCA's 2.4 tonnes.

Rafale shatters Gripen in every parameters there is. And also make note that Gripen is superior to LCA. Why Gripen is superior, we can come to that much later.

Go through this link Rafale News: Switzerland, Evaluation report quick analysis it explains why Rafale shouldn't be compared to even a low end medium combat aircraft like Gripen NG, let alone the LCA.

Deep Strike Mission:- This is again a falacy, that Rafale can be used for deep strike mission, bcoz in today's highly defended airspace of adversaries, it is virtually impossible or to put it in better term, no air-force (IAF, PLAAF, PAF) put their aircraft for this mission and this role has been taken by cruise missiles. Apart from air to air warfare(interception & air-dominance), Fighter aircraft are used to give support to ground troops and to stop adversaries advancement both of which doesn't require deep strike capability.
And what makes you say this? [sarcasm]I am sure your extensive experience in IAF has helped you to come to this conclusion.[/sarcasm]

Deep Penetration Strike is a very important requirement for any "serious" air force. It's not going to change ever. Google Prompt Global Strike program and figure out why the USAF wants a global capability to launch a precision strike.

And modern aircraft are expected to comply with requirements that take care of all present and future threats.

Stealth:- Better to say it as lower RCS or who detect the other first. Under no circumstances, and under no flying configuration can Rafale RCS be lower or let say significantly lower than Tejas, because once the external weapons are loaded, RCS increases significantly. Yes, one may say that Rafale will detect it's adversaries before Tejas does, but if we simplify to who our adversaries are and what are the type of fighters they have in their inventory, we can easily conclude that though Rafale may detect them before Tejas, but in 80% to 90% of the cases Tejas will atleast detect it's adversary first. And moreover in real time sitution, ground based radars and AESA nullify this difference either.
Oh, we can already conclude? So easy to type the words. Now, where is the experimental data to conclude this assessment? Oh, wait, LCA Mk2 is still in the design stage. Forget about concluding anything, the aircraft isn't even flying to conclude whether the program itself will succeed.

Let's begin by concluding when it will fly first before we can conclude it will achieve Rafale parameters that were achieved in 2006.

Avionics:- It's true that Rafale is superior than Tejas in avionics, but one has to understand that to kill a bird, we just need a decent rifle and not a AK-47 gun i.e. something at par or superior than our adversaries. Tejas is still ahead. People are making their own assumptions, but no country so far has gone ahead to praise the AESA radar on Rafale nose. Surely it will be better than what India may achieve, but it is world leader.
Oh, and what if the enemy already has two AK-47s, let alone 200? Everything above LCA's weight category is better than LCA.

No, just adding an AESA radar doesn't make the aircraft any more deadly if it doesn't have the same type of weapons systems to bear, even after we remove performance from the picture which is sadly not in LCA's favor.

Speed:- Some falsely claim that Rafale can supercruise at Mach 1.4 . Before making these stupid claims, they should have taken care of it's max speed of Mach 1.8. A fighter which can supercruise at Mach 1.4 will have it's max speed close to Mach 2.2 . No one knows whether Rafale reached Mach 1.1 at sea level in Indian hot weather which Tejas has. Though speed is not a main factor and the only reason I raised this is to silent the false critics going on against Tejas compared to other flying machines.
Oh, great. Bring in preconceived notions into something you understand little about, that when Tejas is yet to demonstrate a speed above mach 1.4 with afterburners.

Anyway here's a source.


Expecting LCA to be anywhere near Gripen is an uninformed opinion.

Transfer Of Technology:- This is the biggest lie. No country ever transfer all the key technologies and importantly even if they wish to never ever everything can get absorbed by the receiving country. Moreover by the time, the critical technology such as Aesa radars and engine, would get transfer, the technology itself will be about to become obsolete. Just imagine, engine technology get transferred completely in the year 2028-2030. What will be the use then. I am sure with little extra investment in our R&D, we will have a far better product by 2025-2030 than M-88. Similar is the case with other critical Techs as well.
Oh, yes. Your extensive experience in the aerospace industry has also helped you conclude that ToT is a lie. Never mind the fact that we are making Su-30s in India with said ToT.

Do you even know or understand why we need ToT?

ToT is an extremely important aspect of producing aircraft in the country. Without ToT there would have been no aerospace industry to begin with. After Saturn designed the AL-31 engine for the MKI, they transferred technology to HAL for its manufacture. After NAL designed the composites required for LCA, they were the ones who transferred technology for its manufacture to HAL. Without the transfer of either technologies, HAL wouldn't be able to manufacture any of these.

Aircraft are expected to be in use for at least 4 decades, so this ToT comes in use when you want to maintain the aircraft over such a long period. If during a ground strike mission, the LCA lands back with bullet holes in its body, it is this ToT that helps in fixing the holes and send the aircraft back in the air. Without ToT, the aircraft will have to be sent back to the OEM (NAL in this case), just to fix it.

If LCA's engine has holes in it tomorrow, the engine will have to be flown back to the US for repairs. Expect that engine to come back only after half a year. OTOH, the M88-4E can be fixed on the field very quickly because of the ToT from Snecma.

Timeline of Induction:- Even if today MOD start working towards sealing this deal, it will not be done before the financial year end. And if we consider from 2015 onwards, we will have our first squadron not before 2019. And there after 8 aircraft per year on an average, it will take HAL 13 years to deliver the remaining aircraft with the first squadron coming out from HAL facility not before 2022. And if we look, by then Tejas mk2 will easily achieve it's FOC and HAL will then able to roll out a squadron of Tejas mk2 every year taking together new facility which will be set for Tejas mk2 and upgradation of Tejas mk1 facility. And by 2030 we will able to induct 9 squadron of Tejas mk2.
How long have you been following the LCA program? For me it's been 15 years. When LCA started flying, we all expected the aircraft to be inducted within half a decade. We have been waiting for so long that the people I was watching it with have retired and some have died. Some of their grandkids are now working in the ADA. And through all this time, LCA is yet to be inducted.

So what give you the confidence that Mk2 will "easily" achieve FOC? Heck, the program directors who started with LCA are now retired or dead.

And wow, 9 squadrons of Mk2? You sure live in a very carefree world. Let's have IAF and IN order their first Mk2 squadron to begin with, before we fantasize about the actual number of orders. If MoD increases squadron strength, then why not, we can order squadrons in the double digits and production can go on until 2050. We can even dream of selling thousands to other countries like in the case of the Mig-21 and F-16.

Price:- Price of Tejas mk2 will be atleast one-fourth of Rafale. At $10 billion we can have 10 squadron of Tejas and with another $10 billion world class facility for future development and R&D. And we can also direct this money towards early completion of AMCA
This is one point I agree with, albeit partly. LCA will be cheap, but as cheap as it is, it is also going to be equally less capable compared to Rafale.

But $10 Billion is too expensive for 10 squadrons of LCA, or are you suggesting Rafale will cost $40 Billion for 10 squadrons? Sure, you can live in your fantasy, but at least keep it consistent.

And just throwing money at AMCA is not going to result in anything. ADA has asked for $2-2.5 Billion for AMCA and GTRE has asked for $2 Billion for a new engine. So, money will be disbursed once ADA has progressed well sufficiently in the LCA program. I don't know what's the benchmark for AMCA to start, but it looks like since Mk2 has only finished half of its design stage, funds will be allocated once ADA has chosen an engine for AMCA and the preliminary design stage begins. Without an engine, it is pointless to start AMCA.
 
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Apollyon

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

14 years since first flight and it's yet to demonstrate firing of a long range air-to-air missile.
ADA Tejas was meant to replace Mig-21 in interceptor role, right ? :rolleyes:
 

SajeevJino

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

.

I too love our indigenous defence Establishment I too want our industry should grow in military And Flying Wings


But peoples we Here talking about Tejas Can do or 2 or 2 more Tejas can do Same one Rafale do in the theatre

Please quote only one thing at least our future mk 2 will equal current Rafale' s performance

Answer is big no ..I sure no one will see the MK 2 Before 2025


Rafale we should need Asap..

the current Tejas is best in 1970-2000 time frame not now
 

abhi_the _gr8_maratha

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

.

I too love our indigenous defence Establishment I too want our industry should grow in military And Flying Wings


But peoples we Here talking about Tejas Can do or 2 or 2 more Tejas can do Same one Rafale do in the theatre

Please quote only one thing at least our future mk 2 will equal current Rafale' s performance

Answer is big no ..I sure no one will see the MK 2 Before 2025


Rafale we should need Asap..

the current Tejas is best in 1970-2000 time frame not now
tejas mk2 will beat rafale anytime. And we can moderate mk1's avionics and all things by using components of super sukhoi which will make mk1 more lethal than rafale.
.
I don't find any point to purchase rafale just for range as we already have fighter which have more range than rafale.
.
 

SajeevJino

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

tejas mk2 will beat rafale anytime. And we can moderate mk1's avionics and all things by using components of super sukhoi which will make mk1 more lethal than rafale.
.
I don't find any point to purchase rafale just for range as we already have fighter which have more range than rafale.
.


what is the specification of Mk 2..

I'm talking about a plane who is combat proven ..you are blubbering about a Plane still in Dashboard

leave the partnership measure here he will best with She

so you telling about Range ..not money
 

Hari Sud

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

IAF is holding a gun at India's head and using French politicians to back them up. They want Rafale, expensive or not. Or worst case scenario they would drop a bunch to ground and blame it on somebody not themselves.

IAF have to get competent first . They dropped a $600 million c-117 to the ground when it was brand new only a few months except they could not blame anybody for it.

India as the best complement of fighter planes much, much better than anybody in the neighbourhood. Like Su-30mk1, Mirage, Mig 29, Jaguars, upgraded MIG 21, LCA and some more. Why does airforce wish to add more problems with the purchase of a very complicated plane whose flight and maintenance record is a bit obtuse. It requires much more maintenance after each one hour flight. Then you are permanently dependent upon a billion dollars worth of spares every year to keep them flying. Bad economics.

Just get help to upgrade LCA 2 to a higher level of technology. Swedish plane maker is prepared to help. It will be an Indian solution. Import of spares will reduce to half. India's own technological capability will improve with outside help to LCA 2.

Air Force Marshall's are hell bent on Rafale. They do not have a long range view. They do not care.

Instead use the money saved to buy other priority items.

Sorry French.
 

p2prada

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

@Austin @Twinblade @halloweene

Video: Vayu-StratPost Air Power Roundtable II | StratPost

If we go by the air force's choice of the Rafale, which is 85 million dollars apiece, then buying 126 copies of that aircraft is going to cost 120 lakh crores (INR).
Interesting. The cost of each Rafale is $85 Million, if we go by Admiral Arun Prakash's words. Overall procurement cost would be $160 Million for each Rafale. I believe with maintenance, ToT, production etc.

And this,
I would say, averaging about 40 million dollars to almost 100 million dollars – or 85 million dollars." – Air Marshal (retd) M Matheswaran
Even the guy who wrote the MMRCA RFP refers to the same price.

And note that this article was released just three days ago. And the people here are legit, except for Ajai Shukla trying to subtly bring the F-35 again.

So, total contract would be $10.7 Billion as fly away cost of 126 Rafales or $21 Billion for the overall contract.
 
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Zebra

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Re: Why Rafale is a Big Mistake

what is the specification of Mk 2..

I'm talking about a plane who is combat proven ..you are blubbering about a Plane still in Dashboard

leave the partnership measure here he will best with She

so you telling about Range ..not money

Can it prove at Leh?
 

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