Problems with Indian T-90s

[Kunal Biswas]

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.which will be developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks' existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

"DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights," said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

"The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful," Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, "The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage."

Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, "A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank."

The indigenous production of about 1,000 additional T-90s has been contracted, but production has not yet begun.

"The Russians have not provided full-scale [intellectual property rights] and are withholding some critical designs; thus, full-scale indigenization has been held up in Avadi," Bhonsle said.

An official of the Ordnance Factory Board, which administers the Avadi factory, said the Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008. â– 

Source : Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com

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So all these faults now coming in HOT, And like many here in DFI & BR raised these issues in past are now conform by horse mouth, More will expose this tank in due time .. ..

Bloody SCAM !

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I hope dearly that making of those 1000 T-90 get scraped and Production of MK1 & MK2 given the Opportunity ..

============

India is the only country where, Indigenous product are blamed to have foreign components where as foreign product bought at thrice the price are re-worked- re- spend and equipped with Indigenous components ..

 

[praneetbajpaie]

I hope dearly that making of those 1000 T-90 get scraped and Production of MK1 & MK2 given the Opportunity ..

============

India is the only country where, Indigenous product are blamed to have foreign components where as foreign product bought at thrice the price are re-worked- re- spend and equipped with Indigenous components ..

It's true but Kunal Da, you will appreciate the fact that we need to create an eco system which makes us manufacture the substantial portion (if not all) of the indigenous equipment. For a country like ours, relying on foreign suppliers for military hardware is the same as shooting oneself in the foot. Every major country in this world has a substantial indigenous military equipment manufacturing base and we need that yesterday.

 

[Hari Sud]

Now the dark side of T-90 purchase is coming out in open. The formidable Russian tank is showing its lack of high potential for which the Indian Army has been pushing for its future purchase. Now the Generals of not too distant past era (2000-13) are probably sheepish that they have been discouraging the introduction of Arjun Tanks - Mark 1 & 2 on flimsy grounds. It is heartening to note that some of the Arjun technology is going to be used in the existing 600, T-90 tanks.

Is it possible that because of these problems in T-90, the Arjun, 1& 2 will get a push?

Not likely. Admitting an error in judgement in the matter T-90 purchases is not Indian Army's way of moving forward. They would continue to insist that civilian procurement process made a bad deal, although the Army whole heartedly approved the earlier T-90 deal. So where is the civilian authority's fault? I can give you one or two examples i.e. by not asking for air conditioning and the transfer of technology for the barrel written in the contract were grounds enough to hold the final payment. Since it was not written, the Russian were ahead, they got their price they asked for and wrote an intellectual property rights clause in which they would not let any part of the equipment without their express approval, changed

All the forgoing problems in the contracts are not new. Russians, Americans, British, Germans, Swedes etc. negotiate the same terms and conditions. They need the future upgrade business, which is more lucrative. Moreover, T-90 negotiations were over shadowed by the Pakistani purchase of T-80 Tanks from Ukraine. For India the T-90 tank is far superior and air conditioning was not an issue in cold countries like Russia. The Indian Generals forgot about these issues at the negotiating table or during the procurement contract work. Now they are blaming the civilians for that.

But the Russians did well in these contracts. They somehow (may be bribing the Generals) ensured that future supply of another 1,000 tanks would continue. That is where the problem is. Now the Generals are stuck in the existing inventory of T-90 tanks and to continue the additional supply or break free and instead order the Arjun 1 & 2.

The Indian Army has tried its best to disapprove the Arjun 1 & 2 Tanks for one reason or other. Sometime they said its weight is too high, other time they faulted its reliability, at one time they disapproved its engine. But the DRDO in a relentless pursuit together the civilian authorities kept at and kept on improving the performance of the Arjun Tank. Now it has come out ahead of T-90. Realising that they would be forced to buy Arjuns, they wish to incorporate all those improvements which pre-exist in Arjuns into their T-90s into their possession.

Now the Army has backed itself into a corner i.e. - whether to continue to disapprove the Arjuns as they had in the past or switch to Arjuns and place the future 1,000 tanks order with DRDO. This battle will continue for some time.

Its solution is not far off. The existing cream of Armoured Corps Generals who favor T-90 is about to retire. The civilian leadership is about to undergo a change after the May 2014 elections. The new government may insist on Arjuns. That will leave very little room for Generals to argue about. A compromise of improved technology to manufacture Arjuns would clinch the issue. The latter would improve the quality, which the army has been highlighting. The same had been overdue for a while.

The above formulae would be followed in many other upcoming imports.

 

[sayareakd]

Russians will say, because of this problem we made T90SM, now buy 3800 (Indian tanks sanction limit) of these new T90SM.

 

[sayareakd]

So here is the list of issues with T90S

1. They didnt sold us Fire control source code
2. No tech for armor (OFB has to use Kanchan for Arjun tank)
3. Gun tech was not give.
4. No AC (DRDO has to make AC)
5. Issue with Thermal sight.
6. No APU.
7. Issues with missile firing earlier (dont know what happen) (even otherwise it does not give any advantage over what Pakistan have)
8. Navigational system.
9. Ammo price 3-4 times then what was sold earlier.
10. No active protection system.
So except for engine and auto loader, you are looking at brand new tank made by DRDO.......................and we paid top $$$ through trials conducted by our DGMF.............

 

[Kunal Biswas]

More than Russians lobby, Their 'paid Indian' agents in Armed forces are more harmful and need to be contained ..

Russians will say, because of this problem we made T90SM, now buy 3800 (Indian tanks sanction limit) of these new T90SM.

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No Missile firing Tot is given, Existing T-90 which were imported has missile firing ability but not the once made in India ..

So here is the list of issues with T90S
7. Issues with missile firing earlier (dont know what happen) (even otherwise it does not give any advantage over what Pakistan have)
:

 

[bose]

What was Saint Anthony doing all these years ??? Is he not prevy to all these ??

 

[Kunal Biswas]

To add more concrete to below statement .. >>

Source : Pakistani Agent of Fear Sends Chill Down Defence Ministry Spine - The New Indian Express

================

Why enemy intel would want to know exact locations of Arjun regiments ?, That is because they know that Arjun pose a serious thread and superior to other Tin cans, Its best to know the location and in war times destroy them first, Arjun is also crown jewel of India, Destruction of Arjuns will send be a blow to Indian effort in standing on its own feet, Rest of the damage will do by our paid media by negative PR to bring down the moral in people, like they are doing it now ..
@Archer , @ersakthivel

Now the dark side of T-90 purchase is coming out in open..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

He was tool and used well by those in power ..

What was Saint Anthony doing all these years ??? Is he not prevy to all these ??

 

[srutayus]

There is no reasons to go to such lengths to defend an import that is clearly inferior and unreliable as has been proven multiple times, by denying or ignoring all the information showing this
The Arjun was ready for production by 1995. The T-90 import was *never* needed.
Beware of people who post in our forums enthusiastically promoting foreign imports. The Arms lobby "facilitating" these things is very lucrative.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are some +600 T-90 operational in IA, Not 1000 ..

Out of those 600, 300 of the first batch are older version, The rest are made in India but have issues :

Malfunctioning Thermal sight for commander, Lack APU, It lack AC and it lack AP rounds ..

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The rest 1000 are projected to be made in India, Which is not started as stated in article and as per OFB admin at the factory, That is again because only 40% of tot is shared by Russians, I hope it get scraped ..

Where as Arjun MK1 so does MK2 has no issues, MK1 already proved it superiority over T-90 in trails ..

Is it so easy after acquiring more than 1000 tanks we decide to take a massive U-turn and go to Arjun?

Tell that to army guys who already place their bets on T-90.

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I would like to add a fact, Recently in my Delhi tour i meet my old friends, They are all from Armour unit and operate T-90 Bhishma, They are not exactly happy with it, One of them did said that If a T-90 get damage, They have to canablised others to make the damage one work, T-90 reputation is not as bright as spoken high in media ..

Russian lobby is trying its best as always to kill National product, Its good for there business and coffin for our Crews ..
Not its up to your mind, You like to stick with your view or think abt the grim situation ..

See my point is that we do not have all the facts.

Arjun MK2 has not even secured large orders from Army despite appearing to be good product.

 

[Jagdish58]

To much of dependency on Imports will always end you up in trouble, wonder now the russians wants us to drop FICV & buy BMP3
http://------------------/threads/russia-to-nudge-india-toward-buying-bmp-3s.23013/

 

[TrueSpirit1]

It is amusing (in a negative way) that experts are still being made to extol virtues of Arjun on the "weight" & "ground-pressure" parameters. After all these years, everyone should have understood the basics.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

People mostly here on DFI and BR have understood so, But not other places where argument ran based on media reports ..

There are many here too, Who will repeat same questions which were answered years back, Despite it is been answered infinite times ..

Time to time, Answers are also repeated to remind it so ..

It is amusing (in a negative way) that experts are still being made to extol virtues of Arjun on the "weight" & "ground-pressure" parameters. After all these years, everyone should have understood the basics.

 

[srutayus]

People without common sense or ability to research shouldn't even post on this topic.

If you claim to be doing research on this topic as you are advising others to do, you would know well that Arjun was ready by 1995. Subsequently every excuse was found to delay induction.
Frontier India has a good summary of this.
"The first batch of 6 PPS tanks had got manufactured through Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Avadi, Bharat Heavy Electricals Limited (BHEL) and Bharat Earth Movers Limited (BEML), each two PPS tanks. Indent for manufacture of manufacture of 9 more PPS tanks by HVF was released to HVF in December 1992.
MBT Arjun was formally inducted into Indian Army in 1993 with these 6 tanks. The performance of PPS tanks were demonstrated to the Defence Minister, COAS and the members of the Parliament in February 1993.
The PPS tanks were put through grueling tests by the field formations covering several thousand kilometers of automotive runs on various terrains and firing hundreds of rounds per tank to establish the efficiency of the Arjun tank.
The status of the Arjun Tank was reviewed by the COAS in May 1994 and "bottom line requirements" were laid down. After the completion of the 1994 trials on MBT Arjun, a presentation was made to the COAS and he laid down "Imperatives" in August 1994.
All the additional 9 PPS tanks were handed over to Army progressively and the final handing over of the 9th PPS Tank to Army happened in 1996. The last PPS tank (i.e. XV) incorporating improvements as suggested by the Army and with add on features viz. APU, NBC, Medium Fording Capability was demonstrated to COAS and users at Avadi.
The PPS Tanks delivered to the Army during this period had covered 70,000 kilometers of automotive trials and fired 7000 rounds. The average kilometer run by a PPS tank was 4500 kilometers and 460 rounds fired from each tank.
DRDO addressed the bottom line requirements and imperatives as demanded by the COAS. The overall design of the Arjun Tank was cleared."

Your claim about it being well established on this very forum that the T-90 is a better tank than Arjun is absolutely false and the opposite is very much true.
The only real issue against the Arjun in all those articles that you post is the weight which Kunal has answered very well.

I hope you follow your own advise about "People without common sense or ability to research shouldn't even post on this topic."

 

[Jagdish58]

Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.

The Indian Ministry of Defence formally approved the Army's three-year-old proposal for the T-90 upgrade Feb. 24, and the tender for the upgrade will be sent only to domestic defense companies, an MoD source said.

The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks' existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

India contracted to acquire 310 T-90s from Russia in 2001, 190 of which were license-produced at the Avadi-based, state-owned ordnance factory. Another contract was signed in 2007 for the licensed production of 330 tanks. The lack of an air conditioning system in these tanks caused damage to their thermal imaging systems when operating in hot climates, an Army official said.

The Army plans to procure a total of 1,657 T-90s by 2020, which will include 1,000 tanks produced indigenously under full transfer of technology from Russia, with all parts made in India.

"DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights," said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

"The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful," Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, "The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage."

Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, "A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank."

The Army carried out comparative trials between the heavier homemade Arjun and the lighter Russian-built T-90 in the deserts of Rajasthan last year, with the aim of assessing the Arjun's combat worthiness.

Both the Arjun and T-90 are being produced at the Avadi factory. Production of the Mark-1 model of the Arjun has begun with 124 tanks ordered. The first Mark-2 models, of which 124 also are ordered, are expected by early 2016.

The indigenous production of about 1,000 additional T-90s has been contracted, but production has not yet begun.

"The Russians have not provided full-scale [intellectual property rights] and are withholding some critical designs; thus, full-scale indigenization has been held up in Avadi," Bhonsle said.

A Russian diplomat, however, said Russia is supplying all necessary technology, and that the responsibility for production delays rests with the Avadi factory.

An official of the Ordnance Factory Board, which administers the Avadi factory, said the Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008. â– 


Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com

I HAVE FEW QUESTIONS

- What is the meaning of importing the T-90 from Russia then ? if we have to spend again in millions to upgrade locally
- If Russia has not completely transferred tech to India , then what is the meaning of signing TOT ??
- If Army had gone for Tank Ex ( Arjun Turret with T-72 chassis) instead of T-90 we could have avoided this type of issue
- Funny Part is Russia is pressing in to sell BMP 3 , asking india to scrap FICV
- Delay in INS Vikramaditya , Delay in Mig-29 Upgrade , Spare parts issue of MIg-21 , 27 , 29 & Su-30MKI , How long will we take all this & keep importing

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You already have answers, Just add this that present Gov was and is responsible for such large scams ..

There are voices coming out from Army, And more will come until this junk rest in peace ..

More than Russians lobby, Their 'paid Indian' agents in Armed forces are more harmful and need to be contained ..

Send few of the top officer serving or retire who are responsible for this to firing squad.

We need names and photos of these generals..then a FB page to put them up..

I HAVE FEW QUESTIONS

- What is the meaning of importing the T-90 from Russia then ? if we have to spend again in millions to upgrade locally
- If Russia has not completely transferred tech to India , then what is the meaning of signing TOT ??
- If Army had gone for Tank Ex ( Arjun Turret with T-72 chassis) instead of T-90 we could have avoided this type of issue
- Funny Part is Russia is pressing in to sell BMP 3 , asking india to scrap FICV
- Delay in INS Vikramaditya , Delay in Mig-29 Upgrade , Spare parts issue of MIg-21 , 27 , 29 & Su-30MKI , How long will we take all this & keep importing

 

[ersakthivel]

To add more concrete to below statement .. >>

Source : Pakistani Agent of Fear Sends Chill Down Defence Ministry Spine - The New Indian Express

================

Why enemy intel would want to know exact locations of Arjun regiments ?, That is because they know that Arjun pose a serious thread and superior to other Tin cans, Its best to know the location and in war times destroy them first, Arjun is also crown jewel of India, Destruction of Arjuns will send be a blow to Indian effort in standing on its own feet, Rest of the damage will do by our paid media by negative PR to bring down the moral in people, like they are doing it now ..
@Archer , @ersakthivel

They don't have a tank to counter Arjun right now and ,

so if they are planning for armor thrusts it is better for them to avoid the areas where Arjun is deployed as

Arjun has a better accurate on the move firing capability ,

better armor protection ,

and much network centric capability ,


than any tank in pakistani army,

Destroying armor from air is just not possible until pakistani airforce has air superiority over indian skies, which is not possible,

 

[ersakthivel]

I hope dearly that making of those 1000 T-90 get scraped and Production of MK1 & MK2 given the Opportunity ..

============

India is the only country where, Indigenous product are blamed to have foreign components where as foreign product bought at thrice the price are re-worked- re- spend and equipped with Indigenous components ..

No right thinking nation in the world will make thousands of T-90s,

when we have a better all round tank like arjun in our armory,

but the ways of IA and MOD are very strange , the only thing that moves the wheels is the kick backs and commission.

No country which has high summer temp and large desert area on its border will ever buy a single T-90 when an option like Arjun is available to them,especially as there are no river bridges in Indo-pak border areas in rajasthan sector,


The T-90 wich was purchased even without a proper summer trial is a gigantic scam unparalleled in the history of indian defence acquisition.

it is really sickening to see IA buying thousnads of T-90s that will never have a compact and safe Air Conditioning.

Because there is no space and bulging external mounting will be torn into pieces by any arty barrage or even small mortar or RPG attacks .

then all the electronics of the tank will fail in the desert heat and T-90 will be a sitting duck in the desert in tomorrow's network centric e-warfare world with no electronics working!!!

No safe and reliable solutions exist for T-90s to operate in indian deserts now and it will never be found.

but still the army is not ready to induct close to 500 Arjun mk-1s which are far superior to T-90s.

the T-90 Ms in another cruel joke being played on the indian public,

In the recently held summer trials SMERCH rocket launchers failed seven out of ten times , reason it is unfit to operate in temp over 32 degrees!!!!

Now russians are asking us to foot the bill for providing airconditioners to them as well.