Arjun vs T90 MBT

[pmaitra]

Does change things when real facts are brought out, doesn't it?

"Does change things," - no, it doesn't change anything, because I never made any claim. I only asked for a reference.

Firstly, I am under no obligation to prove everything I say, you can take it or leave it.

You are, under no obligation, and within complete freedom, to make unsupported claims. As usual, unsupported claims will tend to be ignored.

 

[t_co]

Firstly, I am under no obligation to prove everything I say, you can take it or leave it. Secondly, the fact that Arjun's penetration capabilities was lesser than T-90s was known since the day specs and pics were released for the guns and shells for both tanks.

Thirdly, they are comparing Soviet style vs western. Nothing to do with a tank being heavier or not. Arjun is just a "heavy" tank would also mean my brother is just a "heavy" guy. It doesn't put us in two different classes if he weighs 15 kilos more than me. Such simple facts escape a lot of people here even now. The Obj 195 weighs 55 tonnes and "may probably" have twice the armor as on a 63 tonne Abrams. The Armata may end up with the highest possible protection levels among all tanks and still weigh around 50 tonnes.

Lastly, even though Arjun is a heavier tank, it's armor and firepower is inferior to the T-90, a lighter tank.

If you are comparing a Tiger tank with a Sherman, then there is heavy, medium and light involved. Today, there is no such thing.

The bigger question is, if the weight of the Arjun isn't coming from armor, then what is it coming from?

 

[pmaitra]

You make it a habit to make the world revolve around you.

I was talking about all those morons who kept peddling nonsense about how Arjun beat the T-90 in tests, nothing to do with you. Read that post again and see if I was referring to you or was talking about something else.



Yes, take it or leave it. It's up to you. Ignore it or accept it, nobody cares.

I think you should ask those "morons," what they think you are.

 

[p2prada]

The bigger question is, if the weight of the Arjun isn't coming from armor, then what is it coming from?

Would seem like it when we take Arjun Mk2s weight to be 67 tonnes (with mine trawl attached, I suppose) and it ends up offering the same level of protection as the T-90S with ERA.

The turret is massive compared to Leo 2A4. So less armor for volume. With Dejawolf's pics showing the lack of armor behind the sights, that would mean even lesser armor for volume than originally thought.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The one use personal attack gives away his intentions of taking discussion elsewhere when stuck in a dead end..

I think you should ask those "morons," what they think you are.

 

[ersakthivel]

The M829A3 APFSDS have a velocity of only 1,555m/s when fired from M256/L44 (despite the fact that gun can fire rounds up to 1,700+ m/s), and even despite the much lower velocity than most APFSDS rounds, it have a superior performance both in accuracy as in penetration capabilities, and only round capabale to achieve similiar results is German DM53.

besides giving muzzle velocity to the APFSD ROUNDS what else can the gun do to increase the lethality of the round?

The reason rifling was invented was to give accuracy and range.

The reason people switched to smooth bores for the APFSD rounds is that it should not be spun,

not because the smooth bore has inherently more accuracy than rifles.With the invention of slip ring abdurator made of nylon rifled guns can fire APFSD round with ease without giving it any spin.

If this is the case old tanks should have smooth bore from the start .

Because rifling plays no part in APFSD rounds as the APFSD round flies like a finned arrow.

So if some gun scores over the other in APFSD round in some trials ,it boils down to which gun has the most modern FCS.That's all.It says nothing about smooth bore vs rifled contest.

Now with inventions like ERA the APFSD round can be countered.It is no magic bullet as people make it out to be.

 

[ersakthivel]

In the interview or debate with the army commanders, they identified that the Arjun's APFSDS penetration is lesser than on T-90S.

The latest issue of frontline magazine.

Powered by young scientists

The Arjun Mark II battle tank, developed by the CVRDE, is currently undergoing technical and user trials in Rajasthan. The major upgrades in Arjun Mark II include the panoramic sight with night vision to attack targets at night, missile-firing capability against long-range targets, an anti-aircraft gun to shoot down helicopters, penetrative ammunition, sensors to detect lasers fired by an enemy tank and a plough to weed out mines. It will take a few more months before all the user trials are completed

Sundaresh said, "We have done some upgrades to the panoramic sight of Arjun Mark II. We have done ammunition trials. We have ammunition with higher penetration and other types of ammunition. We will fire them and we will give them to the user to fire them. Arjun Mark II will have a remote-controlled anti-aircraft gun. It has been integrated with the tank and has been evaluated by the user. In firepower, it is as good as any other tank in the world."

On the Mark II being heavier than the Mark I, Sundaresh said: "While Arjun Mark I weighs 62 tonnes, Arjun Mark II weighs 67 tonnes. There is a difference of only five tonnes. Compared with Arjun Mark II, tanks of similar class such as Leopard 2, Merkava and M1 Abrams weigh between 65 tonnes and 70 tonnes.

New rounds for mk-2 is being developed and tested. No one will advertise it all over the world unless there is a commercial interest involved in immediately selling the tank to a potential foreign customer.So no one will write a book on them either.
So whatever GENUINELY MOTIVATED generals gas about in interview developments on ARJUN is ongoing process.

 

[asianobserve]

If only the turret is the problem then it's not much of a problem. India can buy from General Dynamics turrets like what it was offering as conversion kits for M60-2000s.

:thumb:

 

[ersakthivel]

Did they said how much?

You once said you wont believe anything in the world if it is not printed in the books you have.So why are you getting interested here?

http://www.frontlineonnet.com/stories/20130111292610800.htm

Are these weights in short tons or metric tons you can inform the forum?

On the Mark II being heavier than the Mark I, Sundaresh said: "While Arjun Mark I weighs 62 tonnes, Arjun Mark II weighs 67 tonnes. There is a difference of only five tonnes. Compared with Arjun Mark II, tanks of similar class such as Leopard 2, Merkava and M1 Abrams weigh between 65 tonnes and 70 tonnes. Owing to terrain conditions, the Army said Arjun Mark II cannot be deployed in all parts of the border."

 

[ersakthivel]

Pity, but I suspect you can estimate it. Arjun currently used APFSDS will probably be similiar to some early 1980's APFSDS ammunition used by NATO, at least it's physical shape gives such hint, and we know more or less what ammunition Indian T-90S use.

In which book is it given ,please post.So you always say nothing is authentic unless it is in the book .

 

[Defcon 1]

In which book is it given ,please post.So you always say nothing is authentic unless it is in the book .

If you taunt a professional, you begin a troll war, and another tank thread will bite the dust.

 

[ersakthivel]

If only the turret is the problem then it's not much of a problem. India can buy from General Dynamics turrets like what it was offering as conversion kits for M60-2000s.

:thumb:

turret is an irresolvable problem according to some ,who will use photos of the ARJUN (like the one below) when it weighed 40 tons during the period of the late prime minister P.V.Narashima RAo as reported by Archer in this thread.

This is the photo of the same tank with the late prime minister P.V.Narashima rao wearing an army cap standing in it.
These are all the old prototypes weighing around 40+ tons
What is funny is most of these would not have been born at that time.

 

[ersakthivel]

If you taunt a professional, you begin a troll war, and another tank thread will bite the dust.

which bud head is a professional here? Please inform me,If you have no technical points to add to the debate please dont advice me.

 

[Defcon 1]

which bud head is a professional here? Please inform me,If you have no technical points to add to the debate please dont advice me.
.

Damian???????

Use the report button often.

 

[ersakthivel]

Damian???????

Use the report button often.

What statistics? What authentic links? You think that internet is such a reliable source? I had book where it is clearly said that during real life tests, rifled guns were less accurate than smoothbores, Methos also was providing informations based on reliable literature. What you done? You attacked him just like me, because he provided reliable informations against your statements and faith.

the above is his statement in this thread.What is the physics theory behind this real life experience of SMOOTH BORES BETTERING RIFLED GUNS ? if it is so why were people using rifled bores in earlier times?
The APFSD rounds which emerged as the principle weapon in the 80s should not have spin.That's the reason people switched from complicated rifling to smooth bores.
With the advent of ERA to counter this APFSD rounds are just another tank round that,s all.
A true expert will give one.Bogus ones wont.


if he is such a professional why doesn't he explain what is the exact laws of physics which give smooth bores more accuracy than rifled ,if we take FCS out of the equation?



Why is he keeping quiet when I post a link to PDF posted by VELAN MUDALIAR on the development of a new generation rifled 105 caliber guns for the US army?

While every available physics laws point to the opposite?

 

[ersakthivel]

i noticed something...

See the ones under going trials in the deserts of RAJASTHAN are ARJUN MK-1 TEST BED VEHICLES implementing and validating the various technologies of MK-2.Not the real MK-2. According to V.K.Saraswath's statement the mk-2 will have a completely redesigned hull and turret with the weight reduced to 55 tons.

So don't make this mistake of comparing the insides and out sides of various different versions of arjun again and again.

Again and again you and other guys here are posting the pictures of sandal colored old arjun prototype vehicles with a few of them in IA as well ,and mistaking them for the latest production version of mk-1 and yet to be redesigned version of mk-2..

 

[bose]

Although I am not from the military background... I have a feeling that IA will go for at least 500 Arjun MK-II.. I think Arjun has moved beyond the stage of rejection and I would compliment the current Defense minister for pushing for Arjun in a big way...

We have to be patient for few more years.. Arjun Mark - II will be a success... I am waiting for it as it is reported that it will have a new hull & turret design...

 

[ersakthivel]

OMFG
This area is phatetic in Ajrun. How to hell developers allowed to place smth.like that
It's seems that Ajrun have two very serious flaws:

1. Obsolate, gun without good ammo.
2.Therrible protection:
-non protected turret sides
- huge weak zone after main sight
- no isolated ammo in turret without blow-out plates.

It's ridiculous...T-90S (SA) have mucht better developed turret:
-no sucht gaps in protection
- better armour integity
- bigger armour LOS
- no ammo in turret

Ajrun program shoud be canceled, and whole new turret shoud be developed. Im joking about chineese turrets for many times (some serious flaws there are to) but those Ajrun turret have sp phatetc crew protection that sincse now for me Ajrun turret is greate exampe how to not project tank turret. It's traged.

BTW: Guys from India - I have nathing against indian Army, Citizens, Industry, but you all shoud understand that Ajrun is ----ed up and it's patetic in compare to pak. T-80UD (Ob.478BE). Goog bless that Idia bought many, chepa and quite good T-90 from Russia, becouse Ajrun -whit that funny turret -is weisting money... Sorry - this turret is misunderstand.

the only thing that is wrong here is all the three pictures doesnot correspond to a single tank.you are mistakenly comparing the protection level of the earlier models of arjun produced during the period of 1992 as shown in this photo, which weighs just 40 tons to the insides of newer arjun's inside.

The tank in the above picture yu are using to judge the protection level is same as the tank lesser weight lighter turret prototype turrets made in the 1990s with the former PM of India P.V.NARASHIMA RAO STANDING IN IT.

The
you are using the older model leser weight discarded prototype's picture to judge the production variant.

 

[ersakthivel]

OMFG
This area is phatetic in Ajrun. How to hell developers allowed to place smth.like that
It's seems that Ajrun have two very serious flaws:

1. Obsolate, gun without good ammo.
2.Therrible protection:
-non protected turret sides
- huge weak zone after main sight
- no isolated ammo in turret without blow-out plates.

It's ridiculous...T-90S (SA) have mucht better developed turret:
-no sucht gaps in protection
- better armour integity
- bigger armour LOS
- no ammo in turret

Ajrun program shoud be canceled, and whole new turret shoud be developed. Im joking about chineese turrets for many times (some serious flaws there are to) but those Ajrun turret have sp phatetc crew protection that sincse now for me Ajrun turret is greate exampe how to not project tank turret. It's traged.

BTW: Guys from India - I have nathing against indian Army, Citizens, Industry, but you all shoud understand that Ajrun is ----ed up and it's patetic in compare to pak. T-80UD (Ob.478BE). Goog bless that Idia bought many, chepa and quite good T-90 from Russia, becouse Ajrun -whit that funny turret -is weisting money... Sorry - this turret is misunderstand.

we also need to to know the exact position of the seat he sits with respect to crew hatch above to arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

Does the gunner lands on the seat while he enters through the crew hatch?

WHY DONT YOU GIVE A GUESS OF THE EXACT DISTANCE IN mm for BOTH THE PICS?
BOTH THE PICS HAVE DIFFERENT SCALES.

IM very very HO the distance marked in the top pic is at least twice more than distance marked in the bottom picture.

I base my assumption on the basis that there is a distance of between one and 1.5 crew hatch length between the man and the end of vision blocks in the bottom picture considering the width of the man in the pic and the crew hole needs to be at least twice bigger.
So IM very very very HO the top picture two and a half crew hatch dia is marked and in the bottom pic something between one and 1.5 crew hatch dia is marked.

So the corresponding marking on the top picture is wrong.That is why the guy who posted this pic is keeping quiet.

 

[ersakthivel]

I am surprised that you do not see it. Look at the TC vision blocks, and then go the turret front, you can see that between vision blocks and gunner control panel, there is no armor, which means that this place is more serious weak zone than I thought. I suppose that Arjun designers looking at the Leopard 2 thinked that there is also no armor behind main sight, probably they didn't had interior photos or photos frim turret welding process, where armor block behind main sight is visible, so they didn't placed armor block behind main sight in Arjun.

IM very very HO the frontal armor of arjun would have been designed according to penetration level specs given in GSQR and not by looking at or not looking at the inside picture of another tank.