French MICA (EM&IR) Missile vs Israeli Derby (EM) & Python 5 (IR) Missile

[Drsomnath999]

MICA (EM & IR ) MISSILE

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/M-MRCA-The_contending_missiles.pdf

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/fileadmin/user_upload/redacteur/Defence/Rafale/foxThree_n11.pdf



DERBY (EM/ ACTIVE RADAR GUIDED) BVRAAM

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/M-MRCA-The_contending_missiles.pdf

PYTHON-5 (IR GUIDED) BVRAAM

http://www.vayuaerospace.in/images1/M-MRCA-The_contending_missiles.pdf

FROM THE OP (THREAD STARTER)

well earlier i used to beleive that india did a bad choice by selecting derby BVRAAm for LCA as it has 50 km range compare to jf 17 's SD 10A which has around 70 km range .But i was horribly wrong after reading this article from Sayan Majumdar which i had stated in
yellow marker which clearly states it's range is 60km + & it's range is still a secret .U can see the rafael officials lolled & rofled when
they were inquired about derby's maximum range clearly indicating it's range is still a deep secret.

To be fair enough python 5 is argubabley one of the most advanced IR missile till date now but MICA EM missile may have a slight
advantage on range advantage on DERBY BVRAAM .From this we can tell LCA's air to air missile power is going to be equallly effective as rafale until meteor doesnt come to equation here

 

[p2prada]

well earlier i used to beleive that india did a bad choice by selecting derby BVRAAm for LCA as it has 50 km range compare to jf 17 's SD 10A which has around 70 km range .But i was horribly wrong after reading this article from Sayan Majumdar which i had stated in
yellow marker which clearly states it's range is 60km + & it's range is still a secret .U can see the rafael officials lolled & rofled when
they were inquired about derby's maximum range clearly indicating it's range is still a deep secret.

If the SD-10A is in the same class as the R-77 then the Derby is lesser in range, 10-20Km difference. They can laugh all they want, but there is quite a difference between a 175Kg bigger missile and a 115Kg missile. Even they know that.

Note that these ranges are stated for cruise speeds in the transonic regime and at 25000-30000 feet. At Mach 1.6-Mach 2.0 and an altitude of 50000 feet can increase range by 50% at least. So, if a Derby and SD-10A is fired from a Su-35 from that altitude and speed, then the missile ranges could very well be 80-90Km for Derby and 110-120Km for SD-10A. The more powerful motors on SD-10A will allow greater speed and acceleration compared to Derby.

During Garuda 2010, both Singapore and India had to cut down the capabilities of the Aim-120 and R-77 in order to match MICA's capability on Rafale and Mirage-2000. Meaning the rules of engagement did not allow IAF and RSAF to utilize the extra capability their BVR missiles gave as compared to ALA's.

To be fair enough python 5 is argubabley one of the most advanced IR missile till date now but MICA EM missile may have a slight
advantage on range advantage on DERBY BVRAAM .From this we can tell LCA's air to air missile power is going to be equallly effective as rafale until meteor doesnt come to equation here

For a Rafale and LCA fight, the sensors on the aircraft will make a huge difference. Rafale, like the MKI, has an OLS type system in front of the canopy. This can allow Rafale to engage the LCA with ease. You can say the LCA will be brought down every time with or without the use of Rafale's radar. Currently, according to MKI pilots, the IAF Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s are always shot down before they are even alerted of the MKI's presence during DACT. So, you can say the LCA is nowhere close to engaging the Rafale or MKI without a decent distraction available. For eg: Rafale and MKI can engage the enemy aircraft and help LCA take stealthy shots from safe distances. Col Ternof explains that in the Red Flag 2008 briefing.

Similarly the JF-17, even with AWACS support, has a massive, massive disadvantage against aircraft like MKI and Rafale because of existing capabilities on the aircraft along with missile advantages. F-16 negates this slightly, but with the addition of the RVV-SD/Astra Mk2 and Meteor, even the existing parity is gone.

Coming to the topic at hand. There is really no major advantage or disadvantage if you compare Derby and MICA EM. When we compare Python 5 and MICA IR, Python has a newer seeker while MICA has greater engagement range.

 

[pankaj nema]

Sir ji Why are you pitting our dear BABY LCA against Rafale

Secondly LCA Mk 2 will have AESA And IRST

An EXCERPT from this article

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2011/07/tejas-mk2-mrcas-r-d-effort-gathers-pace.html


By the year's end, the IAF is expected to select the foreign vendor for supplying the integrated fire-control system (including an infra-red search-and-track sensor, or IRST, integrated with an AESA-based multi-mode radar), and a frameless canopy actuation system. The former, which will, in essence, dictate the Tejas Mk2's combat capabilities, is likely to keenly contested by vendors from the US, France, Israel and Italy. US-based OEM Raytheon intends to offer its RACR AESA-based MMR along with a chin-mounted IRST sensor, while THALES Avionics is likely to propose a scaled-down variant of its RBE-2 AESA-based MMR integrated with the nose-mounted Optronique Secteur Frontal (OSF) IRST, which comprises two optical modules. The right-side module has a long-wave (8-12 micron) infra-red sensor used for target search and track out to 90km in ideal conditions.

The left-side module carries a CCD TV camera for daytime target identification. The system also includes a laser rangefinder for use against airborne targets. The OSF is primarily an air-to-air search, track, identification, and localisation sensor, with a limited air-to-ground localisation and identification function as of now. A future enhancement of the OSF will include a night target-identification function (for precision air-to-ground strikes and anti-ship operations) based on a mid-wave IR sensor that would replace the CCD TV camera. The ELTA Systems subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) is expected to proposed its EL/M-2052 AESA-based MMR integrated with an in-house nose-mounted IRST sensor, while Selex Galileo of Italy will most likely propose its Vixen 1000ES AESA-based MMR integrated with its 55kg Skyward nose-mounted IRST.

 

[p2prada]

Sir ji Why are you pitting our dear BABY LCA against Rafale

Secondly LCA Mk 2 will have AESA And IRST

An EXCERPT from this article

TRISHUL: Tejas Mk2 MRCA’s R & D Effort Gathers Pace

Somnath compared Rafale with LCA. That's why.

Anyway Trishul is not the place to go for military news.

There will be no IRST on LCA AFAIK. AESA seems to have been delinked from LCA Program. If larger orders are placed, there is a possibility AESA may be seen as a future upgrade, like how it is on MKI with the Super 30 upgrade. AESA on a small aircraft like LCA isn't largely beneficial.

 

[Drsomnath999]

If the SD-10A is in the same class as the R-77 then the Derby is lesser in range, 10-20Km difference. They can laugh all they want, but there is quite a difference between a 175Kg bigger missile and a 115Kg missile. Even they know that.

Of course Sd10 a is a bigger missile but in comparision to R77 it has 10km less range ,Yes may be they were laughing as it is reported that it has 50km ,but exact range is much different from stated 50km range & they dont want to disclose it.

Note that these ranges are stated for cruise speeds in the transonic regime and at 25000-30000 feet. At Mach 1.6-Mach 2.0 and an altitude of 50000 feet can increase range by 50% at least. So, if a Derby and SD-10A is fired from a Su-35 from that altitude and speed, then the missile ranges could very well be 80-90Km for Derby and 110-120Km for SD-10A. The more powerful motors on SD-10A will allow greater speed and acceleration compared to Derby.

sorry u r exaggerating the maximum range of SD 10A even if it is launched from 50,000km it can have it's range increased by 20-25km which is around
90-100km but not more than 100km for sure.

yes Sd10a would have range advntage not only to Derby but mica also

During Garuda 2010, both Singapore and India had to cut down the capabilities of the Aim-120 and R-77 in order to match MICA's capability on Rafale and Mirage-2000. Meaning the rules of engagement did not allow IAF and RSAF to utilize the extra capability their BVR missiles gave as compared to ALA's.

plz elaborate it ??? i didnt get u

For a Rafale and LCA fight, the sensors on the aircraft will make a huge difference. Rafale, like the MKI, has an OLS type system in front of the canopy. This can allow Rafale to engage the LCA with ease. You can say the LCA will be brought down every time with or without the use of Rafale's radar. Currently, according to MKI pilots, the IAF Mig-29s and Mirage-2000s are always shot down before they are even alerted of the MKI's presence during DACT. So, you can say the LCA is nowhere close to engaging the Rafale or MKI without a decent distraction available. For eg: Rafale and MKI can engage the enemy aircraft and help LCA take stealthy shots from safe distances. Col Ternof explains that in the Red Flag 2008 briefing

well i was stating about both missile's power not it's sensor/avionics/ECM part check again,even a newborn kid knows that rafale's sensor are miles ahead in comparison to LCA & of course who better than me can know better about it

Similarly the JF-17, even with AWACS support, has a massive, massive disadvantage against aircraft like MKI and Rafale because of existing capabilities on the aircraft along with missile advantages. F-16 negates this slightly, but with the addition of the RVV-SD/Astra Mk2 and Meteor, even the existing parity is gone.

well dont bring AMRAAM/METEOR or any other missiles or we would deviate thats another big topic to debate ,yes i would also post my opinion on it.
but not here

Coming to the topic at hand. There is really no major advantage or disadvantage if you compare Derby and MICA EM. When we compare Python 5 and MICA IR, Python has a newer seeker while MICA has greater engagement range.

Hmmm thats the point of my thread i want to state that LCA's missile power is equally effective in comparision to rafale if u dont add Meteor to it.

& mica IR engagement range is better but Python would have more advanced Seeker /with higher kill probalility .

Somnath compared Rafale with LCA. That's why.

well u fail to comprehend properly ,that i only compared LCA's missile power with rafale not entire planes ,how can i do such a grave sin.

There will be no IRST on LCA AFAIK. AESA seems to have been delinked from LCA Program. If larger orders are placed, there is a possibility AESA may be seen as a future upgrade, like how it is on MKI with the Super 30 upgrade. AESA on a small aircraft like LCA isn't largely beneficial.

well i dont know why r u saying this who said AESA seems to have been delinked from LCA program .& why AESA on a small aircraft like LCA isn't largely beneficial??? can u kindly explain

 

[p2prada]

Of course Sd10 a is a bigger missile but in comparision to R77 it has 10km less range ,Yes may be they were laughing as it is reported that it has 50km ,but exact range is much different from stated 50km range & they dont want to disclose it.

Whatever the range of the Derby is, it cannot exceed the SD-10A's range. Even if the Israelis can laugh about it, they cannot defy Derby's physical limitations.

sorry u r exaggerating the maximum range of SD 10A even if it is launched from 50,000km it can have it's range increased by 20-25km which is around
90-100km but not more than 100km for sure.

Give it a 50% increase at 50000 feet at 2x speed. You don't have to be accurate. What I meant is that the range of both Derby and SD-10 depends on the platform firing it and the position and speed of the platform. If the platform fires the missiles at 5000 feet and at subsonic speeds, then the range will not exceed 20Km for either missile.

plz elaborate it ??? i didnt get u

There really isn't much to elaborate here. We don't know the actual ROE. Speed difference may not be much, but the range of both Aim-120 and R-77 is greater than MICA or Derby. The physical specifications of the missiles alone will give you an idea about the difference.

well i was stating about both missile's power not it's sensor/avionics/ECM part check again,even a newborn kid knows that rafale's sensor are miles ahead in comparison to LCA & of course who better than me can know better about it

Hmmm thats the point of my thread i want to state that LCA's missile power is equally effective in comparision to rafale if u dont add Meteor to it.

I got your point the first time. But a missile's capability is heavily dependent on the platform firing it. The Derby on LCA is not equal to the Derby/MICA on Rafale. Similarly, the Derby on Sea Harrier will be inferior to the Derby on LCA.

& mica IR engagement range is better but Python would have more advanced Seeker /with higher kill probalility .

MICA IR is a BVR missile, Python V is not. Very big difference here. You can say the French design is more versatile. Python V simply has a new seeker, but MICA IR isn't far behind. It is of the same generation.

well i dont know why r u saying this who said AESA seems to have been delinked from LCA program .& why AESA on a small aircraft like LCA isn't largely beneficial??? can u kindly explain

Long time back. ADA was lucky to get MMR operational on LCA. AESA isn't part of the first few batches of the LCA. Depending on how many LCAs are inducted, AESA may be part of the later production cycle or as part of MLUs by the time AMCA is being inducted.

AESA's biggest advantage is in it's ability to handle multiple roles at once. It can handle TWS, SAR and RS all together based on how the arrays are partitioned by software, unlike Mechanical arrays which can handle only one mode at a time. However there is a decent amount of power and processing required to handle multiple modes at once. Something which LCA does not need to handle or may cannot handle. Even though it is called a multirole aircraft, it is in effect a single role aircraft at any given time. What I mean is the LCA has very small range and payload and cannot handle multiple missions in a single flight. With just 3 or 4 additional hardpoints, it does not make sense to configure it like Rafale or MKI which can actually take advantage of AESA's multiple modes. So, an AESA in effect is an added expenditure that is not entirely needed. LCA is meant to shoot at enemy aircraft that enter our territory. Any other role is actually a waste of time. For this role, even the old generation radars going on our Mirage-2000 and Mig-29 are plenty.

As for AESA's additional capabilities in EW, the LCA does not need it to survive considering our other air assets that we already have or are in the process of acquiring can handle that aspect much more effectively.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I voted Mica..

 

[Drsomnath999]

I got your point the first time. But a missile's capability is heavily dependent on the platform firing it. The Derby on LCA is not equal to the Derby/MICA on Rafale. Similarly, the Derby on Sea Harrier will be inferior to the Derby on LCA.

well only thing that would vary at best is it's range, not anything else a much, as it active radar guided missile which is just dependent on mid course guidance upon plane & but it's terminal stage has active radar guided seeker which can detect it's own target .
& advantage of an Active Radar Homing system is that it enables a "Fire-and-forget" mode of attack, where the attacking aircraft is free to pursue other targets or escape the area after launching the missile.

MICA IR is a BVR missile, Python V is not. Very big difference here. You can say the French design is more versatile. Python V simply has a new seeker, but MICA IR isn't far behind. It is of the same generation

no Python 5 is bvr missile but it's range is less than MICA IR MISSILE ,but it's seeker is more advanced buddy

Long time back. ADA was lucky to get MMR operational on LCA. AESA isn't part of the first few batches of the LCA. Depending on how many LCAs are inducted, AESA may be part of the later production cycle or as part of MLUs by the time AMCA is being inducted.

yes LCA mark 1 wont have aesa but Mark 2 is definitely going to have either ELTA 2052 aesa radar / indigenious aesa radar is being developed but it would have that for sure if LCA mark 2 is built & inducted

AESA's biggest advantage is in it's ability to handle multiple roles at once. It can handle TWS, SAR and RS all together based on how the arrays are partitioned by software, unlike Mechanical arrays which can handle only one mode at a time. However there is a decent amount of power and processing required to handle multiple modes at once. Something which LCA does not need to handle or may cannot handle. .

well mate u should see that it is going to be used in LCA mark2 which would have provisions for comfortable placement of AESA radar according to it's power needs & processor (MPDU) needs

Even though it is called a multirole aircraft, it is in effect a single role aircraft at any given time. What I mean is the LCA has very small range and payload and cannot handle multiple missions in a single flight. With just 3 or 4 additional hardpoints, it does not make sense to configure it like Rafale or MKI which can actually take advantage of AESA's multiple modes. So, an AESA in effect is an added expenditure that is not entirely needed. LCA is meant to shoot at enemy aircraft that enter our territory. Any other role is actually a waste of time. For this role, even the old generation radars going on our Mirage-2000 and Mig-29 are plenty

i think u have a very negative perception about LCA & it's capabilties.Of course it cant be as capable as RAFALE /MKI but equating it's capabilty with Mirage 2000 in air to air warfare capabilty is a total atrocity on LCA
Ofcourse this is not a LCA thread i wont comment more

As for AESA's additional capabilities in EW, the LCA does not need it to survive considering our other air assets that we already have or are in the process of acquiring can handle that aspect much more effectively.

well as i said it not LCA thread but i hope u must be knowing about India ' joint development of EW suite with isreal for LCA which they are stating to be
used in their 5th Gen fighter F 35 ,So u can estimate how much advanced that system could be

 

[pack leader]

python 5 is the best dog fighting missile on the planet with ultra maneuverability and the smartest seeker
derby has the identical range as mica with far less wight
both are battle tested over Georgia and Syria
in 2014 an AA version of David sling will be available (160 km range ultra maneuverability dual seeker ir image and radar )
made to hunt cruse missiles and stealth fighters

 

[p2prada]

well only thing that would vary at best is it's range, not anything else a much, as it active radar guided missile which is just dependent on mid course guidance upon plane & but it's terminal stage has active radar guided seeker which can detect it's own target .
& advantage of an Active Radar Homing system is that it enables a "Fire-and-forget" mode of attack, where the attacking aircraft is free to pursue other targets or escape the area after launching the missile.

The difference is too much and it is not just range.

no Python 5 is bvr missile but it's range is less than MICA IR MISSILE ,but it's seeker is more advanced buddy

Both have IIR seekers. "More advanced" is subjective and can only be proven on the field which is not happening.

yes LCA mark 1 wont have aesa but Mark 2 is definitely going to have either ELTA 2052 aesa radar / indigenious aesa radar is being developed but it would have that for sure if LCA mark 2 is built & inducted

I am talking about Mk2 as well.

i think u have a very negative perception about LCA & it's capabilties.Of course it cant be as capable as RAFALE /MKI but equating it's capabilty with Mirage 2000 in air to air warfare capabilty is a total atrocity on LCA
Ofcourse this is not a LCA thread i wont comment more

I don't think you understand. The Mk1 is currently inferior to even the 1980s level Mirage-2000. What I am saying is our current fleet of Mirage-2000s are superior to LCA Mk1. It would be a big deal if LCA managed to match the upgraded Mirage-2000-5 in time. Hopefully, the Mk2 will be a little ahead of the Mirage-2000-5, albeit with more advanced avionics.

It is not just me with a negative perception of LCA, include the air force in it too. Anyway, the point is the Derby on LCA won't equate to MICA on Rafale. Even though the missiles are similar, the difference in capability the platforms offer is significantly different. We can end it here.

well as i said it not LCA thread but i hope u must be knowing about India ' joint development of EW suite with isreal for LCA which they are stating to be
used in their 5th Gen fighter F 35 ,So u can estimate how much advanced that system could be

No. It is not happening. I thought the same a couple of years ago, but Mayawi isn't the same as what's going in the F-35I. The US actually allowed Israel to modify the F-35 very recently, while Mayawi has been in the works for years.

 

[p2prada]

python 5 is the best dog fighting missile on the planet with ultra maneuverability and the smartest seeker

While I won't dispute the ultra maneuverability of Python V, I would say the seekers on MICA IR and Python V are very similar, if not the same.

derby has the identical range as mica with far less wight

I would respectfully disagree here. Even though the difference is slight, from public sources it seems the MICA EM is lighter than Derby. Unless of course there are versions that we are not aware of in the open source.

in 2014 an AA version of David sling will be available (160 km range ultra maneuverability dual seeker ir image and radar )
made to hunt cruse missiles and stealth fighters

Ah! This is kind of a rough equivalent to the R-37, Aim-54 or something. Wasn't the range is supposed to be 250Km or are there two different versions of this missile, one with a single stage rocket motor and another with a two stage motor giving different ranges? Or both versions may have two stage motors with different ranges? I dunno.

Anyway, it seems this is on offer to India as well. IAF may end up with the most widespread BVR weapons inventory in the world. R-77, Derby, MICA, Meteor, Astra and now David's Sling apart from the K-100, perhaps even the Aim-120.

 

[pack leader]

While I won't dispute the ultra maneuverability of Python V, I would say the seekers on MICA IR and Python V are very similar, if not the same.



I would respectfully disagree here. Even though the difference is slight, from public sources it seems the MICA EM is lighter than Derby. Unless of course there are versions that we are not aware of in the open source.



Ah! This is kind of a rough equivalent to the R-37, Aim-54 or something. Wasn't the range is supposed to be 250Km or are there two different versions of this missile, one with a single stage rocket motor and another with a two stage motor giving different ranges? Or both versions may have two stage motors with different ranges? I dunno.

Anyway, it seems this is on offer to India as well. IAF may end up with the most widespread BVR weapons inventory in the world. R-77, Derby, MICA, Meteor, Astra and now David's Sling apart from the K-100, perhaps even the Aim-120.

the AA version has a single stage motor no need for booster like the SAM version
PS: the dolphin nose dual seeker combo is a world first and in the SAM version we achieved amazing results

 

[p2prada]

Not bad. Israeli SAMs are excellent. Israel was always missing a long range version of an air to air missile. Seems like this is the best bet.

What are the advantages of the Dolphin nose to a conventional nose design?

 

[pack leader]

Not bad. Israeli SAMs are excellent. Israel was always missing a long range version of an air to air missile. Seems like this is the best bet.

What are the advantages of the Dolphin nose to a conventional nose design?

Dolphin nose allows for dual sensor without damage to air frame aerodynamics
David sling is key for the defense of Israel
it is built to be a improvement in capability to the pac3
after it was purchased by Arabs we wanted our own independent system
David sling is all Israeli only the lunch capsule is American (free cash )

 

[p2prada]

Dolphin nose allows for dual sensor without damage to air frame aerodynamics
David sling is key for the defense of Israel
it is built to be a improvement in capability to the pac3
after it was purchased by Arabs we wanted our own independent system
David sling is all Israeli only the lunch capsule is American (free cash )

Only last year, there was a report which said the air to air version, called Stunner, cannot be developed without funding from a client. Dunno if this client is India or Israeli air force. Would be interesting if it is either.

 

[pack leader]

Only last year, there was a report which said the air to air version, called Stunner, cannot be developed without funding from a client. Dunno if this client is India or Israeli air force. Would be interesting if it is either.

funds were approved for the 2013 -2018 five year plan in the iaf
2013 SAM version deployment 2015 AA version deployment
Colombia is lunch customer for the SAM version (6 batteries Israel 4 batteries Colombia )

 

[Armand2REP]

63km at head-on is not very good range. MICA can intercept that in pursuit at 60km.

 

[p2prada]

I don't think there is any missile operational today which can chase an aircraft for 60Km.

 

[Armand2REP]

When your missile goes Mach 4 and the aircraft it chases is only averaging Mach 1... not so hard.

 

[p2prada]

When your missile goes Mach 4 and the aircraft it chases is only averaging Mach 1... not so hard.

Then there won't be a need for the 60Km range during tail chase. It is difficult for the missile to chase a highly maneuverable target.