Israel-Palestine Conflict

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SajeevJino

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reports out Now

One IDF Soldier kidnapped by Hamas .
 

sydsnyper

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The word "Palestine" is merely the English transliteration! You don't have to find the exact word to believe that the country by that name existed! It's like saying that before the Greeks coined the word "India", the area known by various other civilizations as "Hodu", "Hind", or "Aryavarta" did not exist!

There is no serious academic debate on this subject whatsoever-the region known as Palestine has existed since ancient times, and there can be no argument made about the non-existence of any "country" called Palestine, because "countries", i.e. "nation-states" themselves are a modern invention of just the past couple of centuries.

Hence "Palestine" did exist before the creation of the modern state of Israel.
You are being totally obtuse to facts, is palestine an ancient culture (by your own admission they are not a nation)? Is it a piece of land, yes, but with no distinction of being a specific ancient sect, culture or ethnicity. The word Palestine itself originates from the word pilestine in the hebrew bible, referring to a tribe of people. People who did not carry their distinction any further in history. What are you then ranting about the existence of a Palestine region.

In 1916, Britain and France concluded the Sykes–Picot Agreement, which proposed to divide the Middle East between them into spheres of influence, with "Palestine" as an international enclave.

Now, here is the history of Jewish migration to Palestine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah
Yeah, did I say anything to the contrary???


The Jews that were migrating to Palestine were European converts to Judaism. Essentially, they were foreigners to the region-they shared neither a common language nor a common ethnicity or culture with the existing Arab population. Demanding that a governing body be formed with equal share to the Jews is ridiculous. Imagine for a moment that the Roma, who have existed in Europe for over 2 millennia, but had originally immigrated from India, were settled back in India at the time of partition in 1947. Just like the Jews, the Roma had been subject to the Holocaust. So if the departing British had partitioned India not into 2, but three pieces, and set aside 1/3rd of the "country" of India to establish a Roma state, would you have supported it?

The splitting of Palestine to give justice to the Jews would have been like partitioning India a 2nd time to settle the Roma. Do you know what the word "externality" means?
Like you are an authority of european jewish converts!!!

About the roma people example, if the Roma people had been migrating to India in the centuries preceding independence, identifying with this land of their ancients, yes I am sure we would have welcomed them. Did we not welcome the Parsis and the minority islamic sects or even the scant jewish populations???

And if the british had asked the roma to come down and settle in the subcontinent, we would have welcomed them whole heartedly, no question about that. And if you doubt that, see how a majority muslim population that stayed behind in India were mostly integrated into the Indian society and not denied representation.

This is where the muslim arabs went wrong, when in 1919 the british setup a civillian control and a civilian council comprising of 8 muslim arabs, 2 christians and 2 jews was proposed, it was the arab muslims who turned it down saying they wanted a greater share in the council!!! With the significant jewish population in the area and the moderately high christian population, they never learnt to live together. Soon after the new mufti of the al-aqsa mosque unleashed his first terrorists on jewish farmers and villagers. This is what caused the zionists to press for the implementation of the Balfour Declaration.

Do you think the British are going to publish the most sensitive foreign policy documents for the whole world to see? What kind of a lalaland are you living in? If everything was so transparent and open, what was the need for Wikileaks? :rolleyes:

Do you know that when the British left India, they spent the last few weeks and months doing nothing but destroying any and all paperwork and government files related to the administration during the Raj?
Guess you've never dealt with 'sarcasm'!!!

Oh, so I guess the Palestinians should be grateful that they were not to be subjected to genocide like the Jews?!! Again, why should the Arabs share their land with European Jewish converts who shared neither a common language nor a culture nor a religion nor even the same ethnicity!

If South Africans tomorrow decide in a democratic vote to kick out all the whites from that country, I will support them, will you? The whites have historically settled there by force, just like whites have settled in Israel by force!
Why shouldn't the arabs share the land with JEWS, remember, this problem arises because muslims are muslims and jews are jews, and not because some jews are blonde!!! :rolleyes:

The jews have always lived there and after many centuries come back to their ancestral land. How would you feel if you leave your house in your native place only to learn that your ancestral house has been annexed by someone because you are not a local anymore!!!

I will not support the south africans if they mandated the expulsion of whites..... much the same way if the americans mandated the expulsion of blacks or if India decides to expel dogmatic commies like you..... if people have been living in a land for generations and a new breed comes along denying them existence in the land of their forefathers, it is the new breed that needs to be put down and not the people who are being expelled....


There you go with your lalaland history again. The British did not free a "barren piece of land"-are you implying that the holiest sites of the Abrahamic religions including Jerusalem were all "barren"? It was not up to the British to "allow" the natives of Palestine to rule their own land, nor to decide for them what kind of state it would be-this argument is totally nonsensical, and I'd really like to know what sources you're getting your points from.

Lastly, let me remind you-among all this Israeli and US propaganda-that the 1st and only Holocaust took place in Europe. That throughout their history, the Jews were never persecuted in Muslim lands the way they have been persecuted in Europe, that even the very first expulsion of Jews from Palestine was carried out by the Romans (modern day Italians), and not the Muslim Arabs. Christians throughout the ages have hated Jews and persecuted them far more than the Muslims because Christians hold the Jews directly responsible for the crucifixion of Christ. Jews were the religious enemies of the Christians, but for the Muslims, the Jews were never in that special category.
You are either ignorant or a liar....there is no basis for these claims in general...
 

Known_Unknown

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You are being totally obtuse to facts, is palestine an ancient culture (by your own admission they are not a nation)? Is it a piece of land, yes, but with no distinction of being a specific ancient sect, culture or ethnicity. The word Palestine itself originates from the word pilestine in the hebrew bible, referring to a tribe of people. People who did not carry their distinction any further in history. What are you then ranting about the existence of a Palestine region.

In 1916, Britain and France concluded the Sykes–Picot Agreement, which proposed to divide the Middle East between them into spheres of influence, with "Palestine" as an international enclave.
And you should stop quoting my posts because your replies have no logical connection with my quote. I have already tried to teach you why an argument cannot be made about Palestine not being a "nation" or "country" 2000 years ago. There were no nation-states anywhere in the world back then. Not India, not China, not Rome, not Egypt, and certainly not Judea-none of them were sovereign countries or nation-states. If you still have difficulty understanding this concept, please read up on the subject before arguing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

The idea of a nation state was and is associated with the rise of the modern system of states, often called the "Westphalian system" in reference to the Treaty of Westphalia (1648). The balance of power, which characterized that system, depended on its effectiveness upon clearly defined, centrally controlled, independent entities, whether empires or nation states, which recognize each other's sovereignty and territory. The Westphalian system did not create the nation state, but the nation state meets the criteria for its component states (by assuming that there is no disputed territory).
About the roma people example, if the Roma people had been migrating to India in the centuries preceding independence, identifying with this land of their ancients, yes I am sure we would have welcomed them. Did we not welcome the Parsis and the minority islamic sects or even the scant jewish populations???

And if the british had asked the roma to come down and settle in the subcontinent, we would have welcomed them whole heartedly, no question about that. And if you doubt that, see how a majority muslim population that stayed behind in India were mostly integrated into the Indian society and not denied representation.
You have again quoted and replied to my post without actually reading it. Palestine was partitioned to accommodate the European Jews. I asked you if you would have similarly supported a partition of India to accommodate the Roma, and you completely avoided the question.

This is where the muslim arabs went wrong, when in 1919 the british setup a civillian control and a civilian council comprising of 8 muslim arabs, 2 christians and 2 jews was proposed, it was the arab muslims who turned it down saying they wanted a greater share in the council!!! With the significant jewish population in the area and the moderately high christian population, they never learnt to live together. Soon after the new mufti of the al-aqsa mosque unleashed his first terrorists on jewish farmers and villagers. This is what caused the zionists to press for the implementation of the Balfour Declaration.
Since you never provided a source for that claim, I decided to google it myself. Here's what I found:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Palestine#1930s:_Arab_resistance_and_armed_insurgency

The 1922 Palestine Order in Council[14] established a Legislative Council, which was to consist of 23 members; 12 elected, 10 appointed and the High Commissioner.[15] Of the 12 elected members, eight were to be Muslim Arabs, two Christian Arabs and two Jews.[16] Arabs protested against the distribution of the seats, arguing that as they constituted 88% of the population, having only 43% of the seats was unfair.[16] Elections were held in February and March 1923, but due to an Arab boycott, the results were annulled and a 12-member Advisory Council was established.[15]
So not only did you blatantly lie when you said there was a "significant" jewish population and a "moderately high" christian population (of course, also not quantifying it with numbers since it would have undermined your entire facade of false logic), but your argument that the Arabs should have accepted an absolutely unrepresentative Legislative council is in itself ludicrous.

If not for your rabid anti-Muslim leanings, you could have just as easily put forth the exact same argument as a member of Jinnah's Muslim League, which wanted a far greater power than they deserved by their share of population alone. :rolleyes:

In fact, interestingly, both Pakistan and Israel are religious states created on the basis of ideology....so much so that Zia ul Haq once commented, ""Pakistan is like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse.".

Just as the ideology of Pakistan is the two-nation theory, the ideology of Israel is Zionism. Zionists never wanted a democratic, multi-cultural state, they explicitly wanted a Jewish-supremacist state. Please enlighten yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism


Why shouldn't the arabs share the land with JEWS, remember, this problem arises because muslims are muslims and jews are jews, and not because some jews are blonde!!! :rolleyes:

The jews have always lived there and after many centuries come back to their ancestral land. How would you feel if you leave your house in your native place only to learn that your ancestral house has been annexed by someone because you are not a local anymore!!!
There is no such thing as an ancestral land. All humans have descended from Africa, so should all of us invade African countries and partition them for our needs? Human migrations have taken place since the dawn of history. Very few of us can claim that we are still living in the same land as our ancestors did 2,000 or 3,000 years ago. So it is quite absurd to argue that anyone who wishes to go back and settle in their "ancestral land" has any sort of right to do so.

I will not support the south africans if they mandated the expulsion of whites..... much the same way if the americans mandated the expulsion of blacks or if India decides to expel dogmatic commies like you..... if people have been living in a land for generations and a new breed comes along denying them existence in the land of their forefathers, it is the new breed that needs to be put down and not the people who are being expelled....
:lol::rofl: You obviously know nothing about South African history. The bolded part perfectly supports my argument, so it seems you don't have a clue what you're talking about.


You are either ignorant or a liar....there is no basis for these claims in general...
Just because you have zero knowledge of the facts does not mean the facts don't exist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Notable instances of persecution include the pogroms which preceded the First Crusade in 1096, the expulsion from England in 1290, the massacres of Spanish Jews in 1391, the persecutions of the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion from Spain in 1492, Cossack massacres in Ukraine of 1648–1657, various pogroms in Imperial Russia between 1821 and 1906, the 1894–1906 Dreyfus affair in France, the Holocaust in German-occupied Europe, official Soviet anti-Jewish policies and Arab and Muslim involvement in the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries.
All but one notable instance of persecution in the past 1000 years took place in Europe.
 
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Known_Unknown

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Israel Speaks: “We Purposefully Attack Civilians… Because They Deserve It” | Global Research

........former Chief of Staff Mordechai Gur, whom stated that "For 30 years, from the War of Independence until today, we have been fighting against a population that lives in villages and cities," offering as examples the bombardments that cleared the Jordan valley of all inhabitants and that drove a million and a half civilians from the Suez canal area, in 1970, among others. The Israeli military analyst Zeev Schiff summarized General Gur's comments as follows:

"In South Lebanon we struck the civilian population consciously, because they deserved it "¦ the importance of Gur's remarks is the admission that the Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously "¦ the Army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets "¦ [but] purposely attacked civilian targets when Israeli settlements had not been struck."(2) (emphases added)
Puts to rest all the lies about "collateral damage" and Hamas using the civilians as human shields.
 

pmaitra

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I've seen this false pic shared by so many fly-by-night humanitarians and it is an outright lie.
Here are the pictures directly taken from the UN documents.

On 29 November 1947, the U.N. General Assembly adopted the UNSCOP resolution (United Nations Special Committee on Palestine).

The original UN link is not working, however, Wikipedia has scanned copies of the maps.


Here is the land owned by Jews, as of 1945.


Here is the map of the land allocated to Israel, as per the UNSCOP, 1947.

Therefore, I think the first two of the four maps in the picture posted by @Known_Unknown are true, and not lies.
 
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jamesvaikom

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Here are the pictures directly taken from the UN documents.

On 29 November 1947, the U.N. General Assembly adopted the UNSCOP resolution (United Nations Special Committee on Palestine).

The original UN link is not working, however, Wikipedia has scanned copies of the maps.


Here is the land owned by Jews, as of 1945.


Here is the map of the land allocated to Israel, as per the UNSCOP, 1947.

Therefore, I think the first two of the four maps in the picture posted by @Known_Unknown are true, and not lies.
What is the point of comparing old maps? Extremists in England can also show maps before 1947 and claim that India is part of England. Maps of Israel and Palestine changed many times in thousands of years. Israel is a small country compared to major Arab countries. Why can't big Arab countries donate some land to Palestine instead of asking Israel to do so.
 
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Mad Indian

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What is the point of comparing old maps? Extremists in England can also show maps before 1947 and claim that India is part of England. Maps of Israel and Palestine changed many times in thousands of years. Israel is a small country compared to major Arab countries. Why can't big Arab countries donate some land to Palestine instead of asking Israel to do so.
Yeah, Show solidarity to the UMMAH?

Ummah for the win :D

Is it not it is all about(even the stupid retarded indian decision to stand with Palestine), Ummah?
 

HMS Astute

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didn't intend to provoke anyone! but wonder how long israeli armed forces would last if they went to a full scale conventional war against india?
 
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rock127

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Yea ..that the truth interestingly most of them know about it We know how cruel those Muslim laws are

Interestingly even the Saudi's too this time closed their mouth
This is the response of the so called "Ummah" :wave:

Arab states support Israel against Hamas: NYT
"I have never seen a situation like it, where you have so many Arab states acquiescing in the death and destruction in Gaza and the pummelling of Hamas," he said.
Arab Leaders, Viewing Hamas as Worse Than Israel, Stay Silent
After the military ouster of the Islamist government in Cairo last year, Egypt has led a new coalition of Arab states — including Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates — that has effectively lined up with Israel in its fight against Hamas, the Islamist movement that controls the Gaza Strip. Egypt and other Arab states, especially the Persian Gulf monarchies of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, are finding themselves allied with Israel in a common opposition to Iran, a rival regional power that has a history of funding and arming Hamas
 

rock127

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didn't intend to provoke anyone! but wonder how long israeli armed forces would last if they went to a full scale conventional war against india?
And why do you want to discuss this specially in this thread?
 

HMS Astute

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And why do you want to discuss this specially in this thread?
because it seems like the majority of india people in this thread genuinely believe in israeli's military capability and they strongly support isreal even if its committing war crimes.

do they also think isreali military power is stronger than their own armed forces?
 
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