Israel-Palestine Conflict

[HMS Astute]

even if hamas were using human shields, which much evidence on the ground suggests either does not happen or is not very widespread, israel have no right to simply drop shells on those human shields as the act of killing the shield makes Israel worse than the people using the shield in the first place. i am, however, willing to condemn anyone who chooses to deliberately use civilians as a shield during war. if a military force cannot use air strikes without substantial civilian casualties then they should go in on the ground to reduce them, accepting that they will suffer greater military casualties on their own side as a result. that is what any civilised nation would do, but unfortunately the Israelis seem to be barbaric rather than civilised. if we go to the very extreme of this argument, would you agree that if the palestinians set off a nuclear device in tel aviv any resulting civilian deaths would be israel's fault for placing their arms stores in places where civilians lived in the blast zone? or, alternatively, would you say that the use of such a weapon was disproportionate and put civilians at risk where less destructive means could have been equally effective? i would go with the latter argument, as i do with regard to Israel's use of air strikes in the vicinity of high concentrations of civilians. i elaborated to show that most accepted definitions of the term are such that israel is just as much a terrorist as hamas. israel doesn't want peace, because with peace israel can't exist.

 

[thethinker]

even if hamas were using human shields, which much evidence on the ground suggests either does not happen or is not very widespread, israel have no right to simply drop shells on those human shields as the act of killing the shield makes Israel worse than the people using the shield in the first place. i am, however, willing to condemn anyone who chooses to deliberately use civilians as a shield during war. if a military force cannot use air strikes without substantial civilian casualties then they should go in on the ground to reduce them, accepting that they will suffer greater military casualties on their own side as a result. that is what any civilised nation would do, but unfortunately the Israelis seem to be barbaric rather than civilised. if we go to the very extreme of this argument, would you agree that if the palestinians set off a nuclear device in tel aviv any resulting civilian deaths would be israel's fault for placing their arms stores in places where civilians lived in the blast zone? or, alternatively, would you say that the use of such a weapon was disproportionate and put civilians at risk where less destructive means could have been equally effective? i would go with the latter argument, as i do with regard to Israel's use of air strikes in the vicinity of high concentrations of civilians. i elaborated to show that most accepted definitions of the term are such that israel is just as much a terrorist as hamas. israel doesn't want peace, because with peace israel can't exist.

As far as shelling goes, IDF first warns using phone calls and empty missiles (called as roof knocking) before sending the real ones to destroy buildings to minimize Gaza civilian casualties. Hamas on the other hand fires rocket barrage indiscriminately.

Now for a moment, consider UK rather than Israel being constantly attacked by Hamas rockets on an almost daily basis. On top of that, there are terrorist raids through underground tunnels that disrupt the lives of UK citizens. Also consider UK soldiers being lynched by civilians who support Hamas.

Would you as a UK citizen stay civilized if that was the case?

 

[HMS Astute]

bullocks! if their intention was to kill people then the likelihood is that more of those rockets that landed would have hit civilian targets rather than landing in fields and the like. they may be unguided but generally they aren't so inaccurate that you could fire hundreds and never hit a target effectively. gamas are fighting against an aggressor who has removed their freedom and crippled their country using weapons provided to it at massively reduced cost by a superpower. the tactics these days seem much like the IRA were with their bombs towards the end, aiming to cause disruption to the other country and cost it large amounts of money with minimal civilian casualties.a large proportion of the hamas rockets make it through the iron dome system. it is a complete myth that there would be large numbers of civilian casualties if the system was removed as it is actually fairly ineffective. as for the shelters, hamas are well aware of that and yet they continue firing rockets that they know will not kill anyone rather than using different tactics. why? because their aim is the disruption of israel, not civilian casualties. every single time israel break the ceasefire by continuing their operations and then bomb civilian targets to dust when hamas retaliate. uk used most of it's economic might to produce the weapons needed to fight against nazi germany as freedom is worth a lot to people. as much as you might dislike the comparison, many palestinians feel they are fighting for freedom against a country hell-bent on taking their country away from them in much the same way. perhaps the israeli regime should stop illegally occupying palestinian land.

 

[thethinker]

bullocks! if their intention was to kill people then the likelihood is that more of those rockets that landed would have hit civilian targets rather than landing in fields and the like. they may be unguided but generally they aren't so inaccurate that you could fire hundreds and never hit a target effectively. gamas are fighting against an aggressor who has removed their freedom and crippled their country using weapons provided to it at massively reduced cost by a superpower. the tactics these days seem much like the IRA were with their bombs towards the end, aiming to cause disruption to the other country and cost it large amounts of money with minimal civilian casualties.a large proportion of the hamas rockets make it through the iron dome system. it is a complete myth that there would be large numbers of civilian casualties if the system was removed as it is actually fairly ineffective. as for the shelters, hamas are well aware of that and yet they continue firing rockets that they know will not kill anyone rather than using different tactics. why? because their aim is the disruption of israel, not civilian casualties. every single time israel break the ceasefire by continuing their operations and then bomb civilian targets to dust when hamas retaliate. uk used most of it's economic might to produce the weapons needed to fight against nazi germany as freedom is worth a lot to people. as much as you might dislike the comparison, many palestinians feel they are fighting for freedom against a country hell-bent on taking their country away from them in much the same way. perhaps the israeli regime should stop illegally occupying palestinian land.

Middle East - Exclusive: Hamas rocket launch pad revealed near Gaza homes - France 24

Correspondent Gallagher Fenwick says the site, in Gaza City, is some 50 metres from a hotel where the majority of international media is staying, and just 100 metres from a UN building.

"This type of setup is at the heart of the debate," says Gallagher. "The Israeli army has repeatedly accused the Palestinian militants of shooting from within densely populated civilian areas and that is precisely the type of setup we have here."

The launching pad is also where the FRANCE 24 team had a close call last week. During a live cross to the Paris studio, a rocket was fired overhead, forcing Gallagher and his crew to take cover.

No civilians in danger because of Hamas rockets right?

 

[HMS Astute]

sure. hamas have committed many awful crimes, but the apparently peace-loving israelis have actually committed more awful crimes than hamas have and on a greater scale. the terrorist group in charge of israel never seem to want to negotiate much with any palestinians (see how we can both throw around the terrorist tag?). even back in 1947 they refused to negotiate and used their unfair influence over the u.s to force borders on the palestinians. the fact is that hamas have every right to fight for their own freedom against an aggressor. if israel refuse to accept that Hamas are a legitimate part of the palestinian government then there will never be any peace. israel need to show a little humility, accept that not everything they do is right, accept that they have committed many crimes, accept that the palestinians have a strong claim over the land and sit down to negotiate with them. it is a war where both sides feel they have a legitimate claim to the land but one side refused to negotiate (and we all know which side that was). why on earth do you think that one side has the right to defend itself but the other is a terrorist organisation for attempting to do the same??? why do you think it is right that one side is given access to advanced weaponry yet the other side isn't allowed to take actions to reduce the military advantage gained from that weaponry? if the uk was being attacked by a foreign state who were blockading our borders, bombing our cities and slowly but surely establishing settlements to take over our land i'd like to think that not only would i support the defence of our nation but that i would accept high levels of personal hardship in order to secure our freedom. this is no different to what the palestinians are doing and have every right to do, it is only some of the means they use that bring condemnation down on them. yet the majority of the world's countries have condemned israeli action because it is disproportionate, illegal and shows no respect for human life or international law. israel are as bad as hamas these days, which is saying a lot, as hamas have become a little more moderate whilst the disgusting isreali regime have become much more aggressive on larger scale.

 

[thethinker]

No civilian danger by Hamas rockets there !

 

[thethinker]

sure. hamas have committed many awful crimes, but the apparently peace-loving israelis have actually committed more awful crimes than hamas have and on a greater scale. see the difference!

So surprising that Israelis for a "terrorist nation" spend resources on courtesy phone calls, empty warning shells and humanitarian aid to Gaza. Such terrorists indeed!

 

[HMS Astute]

No civilian danger by Hamas rockets there !

Death toll so far according to UN

1,831 Palestinians (approx 80% civilians)
67 Israeli (3 civilians)

According to OCHA, as of 3 August 2014 in the Gaza Strip, over 485,000 Palestinians had been displaced, of which 269,793 were taking shelter in 90 UNRWA schools. UNRWA has exhausted its capacity to absorb displaced persons, and overcrowding in shelters risks the outbreak of epidemics. 1.8 million people are affected by a halt or reduction of the water supply. 141 schools and 26 health facilities have been damaged.

Quotes by international figures

"How many more deaths must there be to stop what must be called the carnage in Gaza? The tradition of friendship between France and Israel is old and Israel's right to security is total, but this right does not justify the killing of children and the massacre of civilians."
- French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius

Referring to the continued Israeli shelling of UN shelters. UN General Secretary Ban Ki-Moon called this "A moral outrage and a criminal act."

"The suspicion that militants are operating nearby does not justify strikes that put at risk the lives of so many innocent civilians."
"The coordinates of the school, like all UN facilities in Gaza, have been repeatedly communicated to the Israel Defense Forces."
"The United States is appalled by today's disgraceful shelling outside a UNRWA school in Rafah sheltering some 3,000 displaced persons, in which ten more Palestinian civilians were tragically killed."
- US State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki

In the latest attack on civilians in the UNRWA school in Rafah, Israel was warned by the UN that there were thousands of civilians there and not to hit it 37 times!

 

[thethinker]

Death toll so far according to UN

1,831 Palestinians (approx 80% civilians)
67 Israeli (3 civilians)

According to OCHA, as of 3 August 2014 in the Gaza Strip, over 485,000 Palestinians had been displaced, of which 269,793 were taking shelter in 90 UNRWA schools. UNRWA has exhausted its capacity to absorb displaced persons, and overcrowding in shelters risks the outbreak of epidemics. 1.8 million people are affected by a halt or reduction of the water supply. 141 schools and 26 health facilities have been damaged.

Quotes by international figures

"How many more deaths must there be to stop what must be called the carnage in Gaza? The tradition of friendship between France and Israel is old and Israel's right to security is total, but this right does not justify the killing of children and the massacre of civilians."
- French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius

Referring to the continued Israeli shelling of UN shelters. UN General Secretary Ban Ki-Moon called this "A moral outrage and a criminal act."

"The suspicion that militants are operating nearby does not justify strikes that put at risk the lives of so many innocent civilians."
"The coordinates of the school, like all UN facilities in Gaza, have been repeatedly communicated to the Israel Defense Forces."
"The United States is appalled by today's disgraceful shelling outside a UNRWA school in Rafah sheltering some 3,000 displaced persons, in which ten more Palestinian civilians were tragically killed."
- US State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki

In the latest attack on civilians in the UNRWA school in Rafah, Israel was warned by the UN that there were thousands of civilians there and not to hit it 37 times!

No such stats from Hamas side? Why not?

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

@HMS Astute; land of palestine??? it wasnt there land. they migrated from arab countries. they already have a palestine country which is know by name jordan.
you say its a myth that even without missile defence there will be no israely casualities. can you back your claim with any proof?
btw am happy that israel used a lil excessive force vs these terror org. unlike india the israelis want to send strong msg. they want to and did slap hamas so hard that they will think 10 times before terrorizing israely citizens.

btw if you wonder why so many indians support israel is simply bcoz they have helped india immensly and unconditionaly even without a full diplomatic relationship. even without any embassy present they still helped us with 71 and 99 war. also they have always stood by us on kashmir issue. and we both actively fighting against islamic terrorism.

rumour has it that USA along with some other countries like israel etc wants to eliminate extremist and jihadi islam altogether from the this world. maybe they just waiting for there oil reserves to dry up.
for the greater good of humanity extreme and jihadi islam needs to eliminated from this world. only then there would be hope of peace.

 

[HMS Astute]

So surprising that Israelis for a "terrorist nation" spend resources on courtesy phone calls, empty warning shells and humanitarian aid to Gaza. Such terrorists indeed!

so, i don't think you would mind if we gave you overwhelming amount of warnings, unlimited phone calls and financial aid to help build schools and hospitals in utterly poor indian villages before our entire rapid task force plus nato fleets were deployed in the arabian sea and then constantly launched the "shock and awe" attacks at the heart of vital cities all over india??

 

[thethinker]

RIP

Thousands mourn death of Indian-origin Israeli soldier

Thousands of people took part in the funeral of a 27-year-old Indian-origin Israeli soldier killed after being hit by a mortar shell near the Gaza Strip border while Israel was holding fire under a UN-brokered humanitarian truce.

Barak Refael Degorker, killed on Saturday night, was laid to rest on Sunday in a military cemetery in his hometown of Gan Yavne.

The bereaved family, parents Ora and Moshe and two younger brothers, while inconsolable at their loss spoke about "kind hearted" Degorker whose death has left a "permanent void" in their lives.

The two brothers, also doing reserve duty at the Gaza border, were the first ones to receive the news of Degorker's death.

"My brother would volunteer in all situations and he would do whatever was required of him," one of the brothers said at the funeral breaking down in tears.

His sister said it was "hard to wake up to a world in which you are not here. It's hard to describe the pain. You are everyone's hero and my personal hero. I love you my brother, guard us from above."

Degorker was in a reserve unit of the Engineers Corps and was stationed close to the Strip with other units when he was injured by the mortar fire.

One of his relatives said that Degorker recently finished law school with distinction and had begun an internship.

"He had so many plans for the future. All of us would always say he would go far in life. We had so much expectations...he died so that we all could live," the relative said.

A young soldier from Degorker's unit said he "was a leader who would go to any extent for his friends".

"He was a man that everybody followed. He always had sound advice for people around him who appreciated his intelligence. Barak would always do the maximum possible and would go out of the way to help his close ones," the soldier said.

Degorker belongs to the Bene-Israel community, which has its origin in the Mumbai region, and is the largest community of Indian Jews in Israel. There are about 80,000 Indian Jews living in Israel.

Many other youngsters from the community are also fighting for the Israel Defence Forces in Gaza.

The deadly 20-day conflict between Hamas and Israel has killed over 1,000 Palestinians and 46 Israelis.

 

[thethinker]

so, i don't think you would mind if we gave you overwhelming amount of warnings, unlimited phone calls and financial aid to help build schools and hospitals in utterly poor indian villages before our entire rapid task force plus nato fleets were deployed in the arabian sea and then constantly launched the "shock and awe" attacks at the heart of vital cities all over india??

So you are comparing UK with Israel and India with Gaza? Also bringing in the poverty angle in an unrelated scenario?

If you want to troll, two can play this game mate. And how vicious it can be! :thumb:

 

[HMS Astute]

Gaza Strip: Girl Killed in Air Strike Six Minutes After Israel Declares Ceasefire

An eight-year-old girl has been killed in an Israeli air strike, despite Israel agreeing to observe a unilateral seven-hour ceasefire.

According to officials in Gaza, the girl died in an Israel Defence Force (IDF) attack on the Shati refugee camp. Another 30 people were wounded.

An AFP correspondent said the strike hit at 07:06 GMT - six minutes after the ceasefire had started.

 

[roma]

This is the main reason I support Israel. They seem to be the only nation in the world who understand how to deal with the snakes.

@jamesvaikom

The second reason I support Israel is because they are the most abused around people in the world. Jews have endured the biggest hatred among all the surviving races and the very fact that they are still so successful after that kind of abuse stands as a testimony to their nerves of steel. I wish indians learn this will to survive from the israelis. Also, being a capitalist, the sufferings of the jewish race at the hand of others provides best example of how shit ----ed socialism is when you consider that the abuse jews get from others is primarily out of hatred about their success , which closely resembles how the commie/socialist dogs associate someone's success and their own failure as being caused by that someone's deception/wrongdoing rather than accepting their own failure .

And I have a hard time understanding the intellectual dogs' barkings against Israel. Seriously why does the suicide bombings and the riots target these intellectual dogs ? I mean the riots and suicide bombings dont discriminate between these pseudo intellectual dogs and right wingers like me when they do happen. How is it fair? We right wingers have been warning about the inherent dangers of such a barbaric death cult and have been calling for stern measures against it while it is the dishonest pseudo intellectual dogs who stand for the acceptance of such barbarity under their brain farted logic of treating both civilised people and barbaric savages as equals! I mean come on! Its not fair that right wingers like us have to suffer from suicide bombs and riots indiscriminately as does the pseudo intellectuals who are to be blamed for the existence of such things in the first place! I really hope that , next time a bomb blast happens it takes pseudo intellectuals alone leaving back the sane right wingers

I liked your post because it was somewhat novel and IMHO original points and the fact that you wrote them

But i ask to difffer on one minor point - i think far and away black Africans were the most discriminated
race in the world and not the Jews . Whatever was done to the Jews was evil and voluminous but what was done to
sub-Saharan Africans was far worse and there is no comparison between the two

On yet another front - what was done to Bengali people by Churchill was worse than what Adolf did to the Jews

So it should be 1. sub-Saharan Africans
2. Bengali and Indian
3. Jewish people .

However coming back to your point of why you support Israel :-
I would put it rather differently - i would ask the questions what i like about Israel in comparison to the other side and it is this - they know how to develop technology and by and large are willing to share it with us in Joint :Ventures and this is a most valuable asset of theirs . The other side on the other hand has little to offer other that supporting packland in every way possible against us .

 

[roma]

That Paki woman proved that "Jis thaali me khatein hain usi mei chedd kartein hain".
Born in England which gave her everything but support for Palestinians.She is the first Muslim Minister in England but quickly showed her aukaat. She should be declared a traitor since she is against England. And she is greeted by so many Muslims specially Pakis in England.
This is enough of warning for England if they want more of these traitors in their systems since they would definitely work for their Religion sidelining country anytime.
Education,Living standard didn't help much in her case.Snake remains a snake and it doesn't matter how well you feed it.

was surprised to see that not some but all the indian muslims or muslims ingeneral wer against dr swami and israel. why cant they realise that supporting and being friends with israel is in best indias interest. they still see this war as jews vs muslims and not israel vs UN recognised terrorisit org hamas.

really nothing to be surprised about if you consider the info from rock127 above
cant blame the rank and file when the leadership has dubious loyalties to the land that feeds them.
after all - look at the so-called Baroness Warsi - that's the kind of example set by their leadership

so, i don't think you would mind if we gave you overwhelming amount of warnings, unlimited phone calls and financial aid to help build schools and hospitals in utterly poor indian villages before our entire rapid task force plus nato fleets were deployed in the arabian sea and then constantly launched the "shock and awe" attacks at the heart of vital cities all over india??

First look after your so-called Baroness Warsi and the millions of her type who will cheer her example
then criticize India ?
unless of course like the so-called baroness you are a packlander living off Britain who puts packland first ?
In which case you are doing fine - cant blame you for following the examples set before you .

 

[Mad Indian]

I liked your post because it was somewhat novel and IMHO original points and the fact that you wrote them

But i ask to difffer on one minor point - i think far and away black Africans were the most discriminated
race in the world and not the Jews . Whatever was done to the Jews was evil and voluminous but what was done to
sub-Saharan Africans was far worse and there is no comparison between the two

On yet another front - what was done to Bengali people by Churchill was worse than what Adolf did to the Jews

So it should be 1. sub-Saharan Africans
2. Bengali and Indian
3. Jewish people .

However coming back to your point of why you support Israel :-
I would put it rather differently - i would ask the questions what i like about Israel in comparison to the other side and it is this - they know how to develop technology and by and large are willing to share it with us in Joint :Ventures and this is a most valuable asset of theirs . The other side on the other hand has little to offer other that supporting packland in every way possible against us .

Actually no.


1. Africans: their exploitation dint start till colonisation .ie 16th century and barely lasted till 20th century. No one would dare make a anti african comment and get away with it today on political arena.


2. Bengalis/indians : they suffered for may be 8 centuries that too only on interrupted basis from islamic kings/barbarians and the european barbarians/english. But they are not discriminated any longer.


3. Jews : they have been suffereing from discrimination even before bce. Worst part they are still being discriminated. It is still socially acceptable to be an anti semite in all barbaric countries and in some christian ones(notice how coolly @HMS Astute called them dirty jew?).

So I dont think there is a competition as to who has suffered the most. Jews would win it hands down.

 

[Mad Indian]

yes because the hundreds of children which are being slaughtered are definitely terrorists. Is the reason why they're stating that the entire population of Gaza are terrorists is because they democratically voted in Hamas? Whilst our governments remain silent, favouring arms deals over integrity, surely, given that most of the world is disgusted by what Israel is doing, there must be some bright people around the world to globally organise something that allows people of the world to put pressure on such regimes.. even what you have thought is true, it doesn't make it any less of a sick and disgusting act to shell a hospital. anyone from Israel who issued an order to shell a UN refuge, school or hospital should face the full force of Palestinian justice. I don't know, like an alternative banking system or something as far out there along those lines that allows people to harness power rather than corrupt capitalist governments that run for big corporations rather than people. more than that, israel has said that ANYONE who works for the government is a terrorist. as a result any employee at all of the government in gaza is considered fair game by israel. disgusting jews!

Ah irony. Dont you love it when it happens?


I am sure if you were given a choice between saving your hide and family or blowing up a hospital with civilians, you would have sacrificed your ass to save the hospital containing terrorists+children, being the true Brit that you are. How cute

Thats why when the NATO assholes invaded iraq and afghan it resulted in more than a million dead civilians. You guys are so pathetic that even the usual comparison of "whores talking about chastity" does not even begin to compare to the hypocrisy here.

 

[Mad Indian]

Poor buggers cant save their own country from breaking up and here they are dreaming about invading India

Anyway do we have to turn this thread into a troll fest ?

 

[Neo]

A reality check:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x63jF8GMPuM