When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justice

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

Your evidence is another thread on DFI? You should try harder. And here is a post in that thread:



Inconclusive at best, conspiracy theory at worst.

This guy is a piece of work, and evidently couldn't get any traction with his ranting.

Why My Book Didn't Sell | OPEN Magazine
The fact that USA stopped the transfers of Russian cryo tech to India is not a secret. The case against Mr. Narayanan was framed by an IB deputy director. CIA is known to have moles in top levels of Indian Intelligence and govt. Put 2 and 2 together. Besides, why should the scientist make false allegations. And its a proven fact that the case was a fake one.
 

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

The framed case ensured that India's cryogenic program got delayed, exactly what US wanted. Perhaps they thought we wouldnt be able to do it without Russian help.
 

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

It is DFIndians who wish to make India always the victim, so your characterization of Americans is an evasion.

The other half of equation is big strong Russia must save helpless India.

Isn't it embarrassing to Indians who do have pride in their country?
'Helpless' countries dont usually seek cryogenic tech for space programs. USA gives aid, freebies, arms to a failed terrorist state and then bomb them. If I was a Pakistani, I would have died of shame. What is embarrassing about Russia helping us with our space program?
 
Last edited:

tramp

New Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
1,464
Likes
580
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

The situation then was different from what it is now. At that point in history when Americans were euphoric about the break up of Soviet Union they were only trying to implement their own law of preventing spread of dual use technology. Its understandable. My issue is with the seditious Indian agents and their protectors within the Indian boundaries... including an influential newspaper that had a history of letting itself to be used by foreign hands.

Was thinking Usa could have helped and supported in development of cryogenic engine ... Why Russia ... Perhaps they the Americans wanted ... Perhaps too expensive terms and did not want Russia to take advantage ... On the other side perhaps usa thought that Russia would loose significance after 1990s and India would eventually come around to usa.

The 11 and 13 May are dates that also Slapped India and usa relationship into reality. Now private companies are doing disruptive developments in space and also the defence and economic affairs and more connection with people know how and skills.
 

Compersion

New Member
Joined
May 6, 2013
Messages
2,258
Likes
924
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

The situation then was different from what it is now. At that point in history when Americans were euphoric about the break up of Soviet Union they were only trying to implement their own law of preventing spread of dual use technology. Its understandable. My issue is with the seditious Indian agents and their protectors within the Indian boundaries... including an influential newspaper that had a history of letting itself to be used by foreign hands.
ISRO Logs Milestone with Cryo Engine

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM : Taking a big step forward in the development of bigger and more powerful locally-built rocket engines, the Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre (LPSC) on Monday successfully conducted the first 'cold flow test' on the CE-20 cryogenic engine, which will power the upper stage of the Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle-Mk III (GSLV-Mk III).

"It's a milestone," LPSC director Dr K Sivan told 'Express' here on Tuesday, confirming that the test had gone as planned at the LPSC facility in Mahendragiri, Tamil Nadu. The first 'hot test' - where the engine will be fired for a few seconds- will be performed in three weeks' time, Sivan said. In a cold test, the propellants are not ignited. Cryogenic engines were back in the news with the Kerala High Court making a reference to it on Monday while passing a directive on the infamous ISRO spy case of 1994. The spy case had delayed its development and the ISRO could conduct the first successful flight test aboard the GSLV-Mk II type launch vehicle (GSLV-D5) only on January 5, 2014.

CE-20 is a mightier version of the CE-7.5 engine used in the GSLV-D5 mission. Cryogenic technology is highly complex as the propellants must be stored at extremely low temperatures. The work is progressing on another CE-7.5 engine, which will power the upper stage of the GSLV-D6, a ditto version of the GSLV-D5, expected to be flown in March-April 2015. This flight is very crucial for ISRO to prove that the cryo stage is reliable.

"The work on the engine is in an advanced stage," said N R Vishnu Kartha, LPSC associate director and GSLV Cryogenic Upper Stage Project director.

The CE-20 will make isro self-reliant

The success of the CE-20 engine is crucial for the GSLV Mk-III launch vehicle project. This Mk-III rocket will make ISRO self-reliant in the launch of heavier communication satellites in the 4000-plus kg class. The rocket will give ISRO an edge in the international satellite launch market.
ISRO Logs Milestone with Cryo Engine - The New Indian Express

(the point(s) is not only the bold part)

 

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
New Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,606
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

'Helpless' countries dont usually seek cryogenic tech for space programs. USA gives aid, freebies, arms to a failed terrorist state and then bomb them. If I was a Pakistani, I would have died of shame. What is embarrassing about Russia helping us with our space program?
It is the recurring theme on DFI (USA bad, Russia good) that becomes tedious after endless repetition, to which is added the idea that only bear can save mother India from Uncle Sam.
 

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

It is the recurring theme on DFI (USA bad, Russia good) that becomes tedious after endless repetition, to which is added the idea that only bear can save mother India from Uncle Sam.
Well, the actions of Uncle Sam is responsible for that.
 

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
New Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,606
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

The fact that USA stopped the transfers of Russian cryo tech to India is not a secret. The case against Mr. Narayanan was framed by an IB deputy director. CIA is known to have moles in top levels of Indian Intelligence and govt. Put 2 and 2 together. Besides, why should the scientist make false allegations. And its a proven fact that the case was a fake one.
I would be pleased to view any sources you provide. "CIA is known" and "it's a proven fact" are not helpful to my understanding.
 

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

I would be pleased to view any sources you provide. "CIA is known" and "it's a proven fact" are not helpful to my understanding.
Proof for "CIA is known"- Rabinder Singh (intelligence officer) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Proof for "it's a proven fact"- Nambi Narayanan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In May 1996, the charges were dismissed as phony by the Central Bureau of Investigation. They were also dismissed by the Supreme Court of India in April 1998.
 

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

How India's cryogenic programme was wrecked

India was all set to master Russian cryogenic rocket technology when the United States – in cahoots with its moles in the Indian Intelligence Bureau – set in motion a series of events that implicated India's leading space scientists on cooked-up charges.

To understand the extent of damage caused to India's space programme because of the ISRO spy case, one has to first look at how close India was to mastering cryogenic rocket technology.

Cryogenic rocket technology involves the use of super-cooled liquid fuels to produce massive amounts of thrust in order to lift heavy payloads into space. It will be at the heart of India's GSLV rocket, which will carry future Indian astronauts to the moon. Without a reliable GSLV India will continue to pay heavy launch fees to foreign space agencies. Because it takes several hours to fuel up a cryogenic rocket, such a rocket cannot be used as a ballistic missile.

This leads to two questions. One, if the United States is really concerned about India developing long-range ballistic missiles, then shouldn't it try and stop the guys at the Defence Research & Development Organisation, which makes the Agni missiles? Secondly, why would the United States want to delay the development of India's heavy lift commercial rockets?

It doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure that out. India is the only developing country with heavy lift ambitions and its ultra-low cost model could one day put the likes of NASA out of business. That's an eventuality that the United States wants to delay for as long as it can.

Birth of a rocket

Author and broadcaster Brian Harvey writes in his exhaustively researched book 'Russia in Space: The Failed Frontier' that in the late 1980s India was looking to develop a massive rocket to launch satellites into 24-hour orbit. India first talked to Japan but nothing came off it. Hearing of these overtures, the Indians were approached first by General Dynamics Corporation, which offered an American engine. But the cost was prohibitive as was an offer shortly thereafter from Europe's Arianespace.

"Just then a third approach came, this time from the Soviet Union, offering two engines and technology transfer for the more reasonable price of $200 million," writes Harvey.

The Russians were offering a secret engine, the RD-56 or KVD-1, built by the Isayev Design Bureau. The KVD-1 had unsurpassed thrust and capabilities and NASA had nothing that could match the Russian engine for years. In fact, the rocket engine was originally developed as part of the Soviet manned moon landing programme as far back as 1964.

Over to Moscow

On January 18, 1991 the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) inked an agreement with the Russian space agency Glavkosmos for the transfer of cryogenic technology. Following the collapse of its Soviet empire, Russia was under considerable American influence. In this backdrop, both Glavkosmos and ISRO anticipated the United States would try and stymie the deal.

So Glavkosmos and ISRO drew up Plan B – outsource the manufacture of the cryogenic engines to Kerala Hi-tech Industries Limited (KELTEC). The arrangement was designed to get around the provisions of the Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR) – a Western cabal that aims to deny ballistic missile technology to non-Western countries, especially India.


The space czars of the two countries – Aleksey Vasin, officer-in-charge of cryogenic technology in Glavkosmos, and ISRO Chairman U.R. Rao – reckoned that if Russian cryogenic technology was passed on to ISRO via KELTEC, technically it would not be a violation of the MTCR.

Rocket row

The arrangements were denounced by American President George Bush as a violation of the MTCR. In May 1992 the United States slapped sanctions on ISRO and Glavkosmos. "India objected strongly to the American actions, pointing out that high-powered hydrogen-fuelled upper stages which took a long time to prepare were of little military value," writes Harvey.

India also pointed out the Americans had offered them the very same technology and had made no objections throughout the years 1988-92 when the arrangements had begun.


So does that mean the Americans were trying to achieve the dual aim of crippling both the Indian and Russian space programmes? Well, here's Glavkosmos' version.

Glavkosmos official Nikolai Semyonov accused Washington of attempting to destroy Russia's space industry. "When working out the contract, we used the MTCR guidelines in reaching the contract with India...what is more, Indian partners said at the start and later confirmed that they would use our technology exclusively for peaceful purposes."


Glavkosmos Chairman Aleksandr Dunayev said both Russia and India had called for an international inspection to determine that the deal did indeed comply with the terms of the MTCR. However, the United States did not respond to the proposal, but sent a US team to Russia to examine the situation.

Clinton: Playing hardball with India

Former US President Bill Clinton and his hawkish wife Hillary Rodham Clinton are for some inexplicable reason considered friends of India. It was under President Clinton that Russia backed off its proposals to transfer technology to India and suspended its agreement, invoking force majeure (circumstances beyond its control).

Under the revised Russia-India agreement in January 1994, Moscow agreed to transfer three, later renegotiated by India to seven fully assembled KVD-1 engines, without the associated technology. The United States also inserted a humiliating clause, according to which India would "agree to use the equipment purely for peaceful purposes, not to re-export it or modernise it without Russia's consent". No blueprints were to be given to India.

Duma fury

The Russian Parliament, however, was in no mood to let President Boris Yeltsin bail on India. On July 21, 1993 it passed a resolution declaring that international negotiations and agreements regarding the MTCR must be ratified by the Supreme Soviet of the Russian Federation.

A day later, Glavkosmos upped the pressure on Yeltsin, saying a decision to alter the Indian contract needed a special decision of the government. "We shall not stop fulfilling our obligations under the (Indian) contract until there is a government decision to the contrary," said Glavkosmos' Semyonov.

Really friendly scientists


Russian scientists sympathetic to the Indian cause realised the tech transfer window was about to close, and decided to transfer the production technology to their old friends.

However, with American spies crawling all over Russia during the early 1990s, transferring such a large cargo wasn't going to be easy. "ISRO first contacted Air India but the airline said it could not transport the equipment without customs clearance. And that was not possible without the American lobby in Russia coming to know about it," J. Rajasekharan Nair reveals in his book, Spies From Space: The ISRO Frame-Up.

So ISRO entered into an agreement with Russia's Ural Airlines, which was ready to take the risk for a little extra money. According to Harvey, "The appropriate documents, instruments and equipment were allegedly transferred in four shipments from Moscow to Delhi on covert flights by Ural Airlines. As a cover, they used 'legitimate' transhipments of Indian aircraft technology travelling the other way to Moscow for testing in Russian wind-tunnels."

This was confirmed by cryogenic team leader Nambi Narayanan who told the Indian media he was on board the flights that transported the technology to India.

The knife turns

The United States knew further arm-twisting at the diplomatic level would not be productive, says Nair. "So the CIA was entrusted with the job of aborting the circumlocutory transfer of cryogenic rocket technology through KELTEC, and of stalling or discrediting the transportation of raw materials and spare parts to ISRO."


Who's working for the CIA in India?

The first hint there was a foreign hand trying to destroy – or at the very least slow down – India's space programme surfaced in 1997 when five leading scientists – Satish Dhawan, U.R. Rao, Yashpal, Rodham Narasimha and K. Chandrasekhar – along with former Chief Election Commissioner T.N. Seshan wrote a joint letter to the government, saying the espionage charges against Nambi Narayanan and Sasi Kumaran were fabricated.

These were not ordinary people – they were public figures who clearly knew a thing or two about the inner workings of ISRO and the law and order system. And yet despite their plea, the IB tortured Nambi Narayanan to get him to implicated higher ups at ISRO. If Narayanan had cracked and acquiesced, perhaps the entire organisation would have collapsed.

It is a measure of how successful the CIA was in this spy game that its agents in the Kerala Police and Intelligence Bureau (IB) were able to have a swing at just about everyone in the cryogenic project.

For instance, the IB had Vasin of Glavkosmos interrogated at Moscow, and tried to link him to the case. "The IB implicated Ural Airlines after airing the lie that Ural had, as part of the espionage activities, transported documents from ISRO to Glavkosmos," says Nair.

(Nair also claims because of pressure from above, his book was made to disappear from stores and was never reprinted.)

That the policemen who went after India's top scientists and the IB men who guided them have been either cleared of all wrongdoing or remain unquestioned hints at their connections way up in the political leadership. The big question is who are these people who aided the CIA in scuttling India's biggest space project?

How India's cryogenic programme was wrecked | Russia & India Report

Note: Article written in December 2013, a month before GSLV Mk II's launch using the indigenously developed cryogenic engine.
 
Last edited:

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
New Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,606
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

The Wiki article provides this link, which I read.

Former Spy Reveals Secrets of Research and Analysis Wing - The New Indian Express

From the article.
There has been much speculation over the fate of Rabinder Singh, the R&AW agent who was spying for the CIA, when he disappeared before he was apprehended for spying for the US.

He was a joint secretary in R&AW at the time. Singh flew to America from Kathmandu along with his wife on May 7, 2004 using a fake identity in the name of Mr and Mrs Rajpal Prasad Sharma.

The R&AW unit at Kathmandu did nothing despite clear intelligence on Singh's escape plans. The R&AW even managed to get copies of their visas and embarkation cards.
So R&AW was thick with CIA? Why was that, I wonder?

Also this.

Although the CIA was found directly involved in compromising two R&AW officers Rabinder Singh and K V Unnikrishnan, Yadav claims that at least eight other R&AW officers managed to clandestinely migrate and settle in foreign countries like the US and Canada with the help of their spy agencies. Sikander Lal Malik, personal secretary to Kao for 17 years, managed to get two years' extension after completing his mandatory tenure in New York.
I would say the weakness lay in R&AW, whose agents rolled over for CIA. Blame CIA if you want, but it could have been anybody. It's not just about "CIA moles", but that the Indian agency was rotten throughout. Just my conclusion.
 

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
New Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,606
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

Well, the actions of Uncle Sam is responsible for that.

The victim mentality. Lose it, grow up, be strong. A thing I hate about DFI is sniveling Indians.
 

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

The Wiki article provides this link, which I read.

Former Spy Reveals Secrets of Research and Analysis Wing - The New Indian Express

From the article.


So R&AW was thick with CIA? Why was that, I wonder?

Also this.



I would say the weakness lay in R&AW, whose agents rolled over for CIA. Blame CIA if you want, but it could have been anybody.
Well, the point I wanted to make is that CIA has moles in high-ups of Indian establishments and they delayed the cryogenic program, not whether weakness lay in R&AW. Moderately paid people can be lured with gifts and a US citizenship!
 

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
New Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,606
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

From the article:

Documents show that US president George H. W. Bush wrote to Russia,raising objections against this agreement and even threatening to blacklist the country from the select-five club.Russia,under Boris Yeltsin,succumbed to the pressure and denied cryogenic technology to India.
There appears to be no cite for the subject documents in the Wiki article. Do you have a source for them?

Let add once more that the attempt to link these affairs to the ISRO Mars Orbiter Mission is sketchy at best in my opinion.
 

W.G.Ewald

Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2
New Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
14,139
Likes
8,606
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

Well, the point I wanted to make is that CIA has moles in high-ups of Indian establishments and they delayed the cryogenic program, not whether weakness lay in R&AW. Moderately paid people can be lured with gifts and a US citizenship!
You made the point about CIA moles. People everywhere are subject to temptation with money, gifts & sex and also subject to blackmail. All of that and protection against those threats could be subject of another thread.
 

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

From the article:



There appears to be no cite for the subject documents in the Wiki article. Do you have a source for them?

Let add once more that the attempt to link these affairs to the ISRO Mars Orbiter Mission is sketchy at best in my opinion.
INDO-RUSSIAN MILITARY AND NUCLEAR COOPERATION

From the link:

Over the next two years, the United States protested the proposed transfer of missiles and technology to India on the grounds that the sale would violate the April 1987 Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR). The growing threat of missile proliferation became well known to the United States following the Iraqi Scud missile attacks during the Gulf War and the testing of India's Agni IRBM missile in 1989. However, the ability of the United States to coherently protest the sale was hampered by the changing of governments in Moscow as the Soviet Union collapsed and as the U.S. Executive Branch changed administrations from President Bush to President Clinton.

From the Indian and Russian perspectives, the cryogenic engine deal was legal under the MTCR on the grounds that the treaty did not block the support of "peaceful space ventures." Furthermore, India asserted that U.S. attempts to block the sale were financially motivated since General Dynamics and the French space-booster manufacturer Arianespace had both been outbid by Glavkosmos.

The new Russian government under Boris Yeltsin promised India's leadership that it would not give in to U.S. diplomatic pressure. This promise was compromised, however, after the United States applied sanctions in May 1992, and threatened further economic measures. On 16 July 1993, Boris Yeltsin agreed to suspend the transaction and to alter the nature of the transfer to the sale of only the cryogenic engines and not the technology. In exchange, Glavkosmos was given bidding rights on over $950 million worth of future U.S. space projects.
 

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

From the article:



There appears to be no cite for the subject documents in the Wiki article. Do you have a source for them?
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...wQoKrqj4MnhSWNkQfG5rQ1A&bvm=bv.77880786,d.c2E
U.S. Motivation in Opposing Rocket Technology
Analyzed

Being angered at the deal of trading cryogenic
rocket technology, America at first issued threats to
Russia. They were told that they cannot sell this technology
to India. India, on the other hand, was asked not
to buy this technology. America said that their objection
about this matter must be obeyed because this deal is
illegal. Even after this, if this deal occurs, America will
punish both, ISRO and Glavkosmos of India and Russia,
respectively. This punishment means that America will
not honor any contract previously made with these two
centers, will not help in any respect, will not transfer any
technology, and will not maintain any relations with
these two centers. In a word, India's ISRO and Russia's
Glavkosmos will be put on the "black list."

In the middle of the last month, Washington
issued its threat against the transfer of rocket technology
to Moscow. At present, probably the condition of President
Boris Yeltsin is worse than the condition of Russia.
At first, he was shaken by the American threat and asked
Glavkosmos to stop the technology transfer. Just a few
days ago, mainly on American initiative, 29 billion
dollars were declared to be given as aid to restructure the
Russian economy. President Yeltsin's order for temporarily
halting the set program of technology transfer to
India came because Russia feared losing promised financial
help from America.
 
Last edited:

Voldemort

New Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2013
Messages
1,102
Likes
727
Country flag
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...wQoKrqj4MnhSWNkQfG5rQ1A&bvm=bv.77880786,d.c2E

The Indian foreign
ministry and the space scientists think that since
America is trying to keep Russia away from the space
market, she also does not want any country in South Asia
to get this highly developed technology, especially India.
Because they know that if India gets this technology, she
will enter the space market of the world within next two
decades. India has that capability. America does not
want to increase competitors in business market.
Because they did not want this from the very beginning,
they formulated the MTCR pact to protect their own
interests. But this they did in the name of world peace.
 
Last edited:

tramp

New Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2009
Messages
1,464
Likes
580
Re: When the nation celebrates MOM, one ex ISRO scientist awaits justi

I am and Indian and know that the CIA will always do what is in their interest. I have no complaints about that.

My issue is with the failure of the Indian govt to hunt the moles down and punish them. R&AW should make life uncomfortable for even the rats that scooted.

Also, it is serious that the nation could not launch an investigation including into the role of the seditious media in such a case of far-reaching impact.
 

Articles

Top