What's the solution against these govt funded rotten scums?

[pmaitra]

Sorry pMaitra, its sad that you think Mao and Stalin were heroes! Mao ruined its country killed thousands and pushed numerous others to famine! Economic indicators were bad under Mao. Only evil American capitalism could save it and propel to some prosperity! I am sure now you must be closet admirer of communist Kim 1 & 2, because they made communist North korea progress better than capitalist democratic south korea!!! Communism is a very narrow subset of leftism, not different!
Communist Bengal woes is not reflective of state of rest of country!

Ok, we can agree to disagree. You give me a better alternative solution to what Stalin did under the given circumstances. American capitalism is indeed founded on mass massacres of Native Americans and slavery. Whether you want to call it evil or heavenly, depends upon you. If you are looking at the end result, the end result is prosperity. The same measuring stick, if applied to other Empires, is no different.

So, do you agree or disagree, that if we had a leader like Mao, we wouldn't have lost Aksai Chin. Give me a clear cut answer.

Communism is not a subset of leftism, sorry. Stalin had all qualities that would go against what we see as leftism in India. Sure, there is overlap, but subset it is not.

 

[OneGrimPilgrim]

I see another opportunity for Congress + AAP + CPM + TMC +RJD to disrupt the budget session ... It seems to me a pre planned script being played out... Not allow the government to function and then go to the people and tell them see the current government does not deliver on its promise.

seems very plausible. whenever something important's to come up, we see such kinds of shitstorms being kicked up. the PM's silence & parade of being a 'development & secular' nut is also very disturbing.

 

[kr9]

No, you didn't. I never said Stalin never killed people, did I? All you said is to get my facts right, when in reality, you are countering a strawman.

Yes, if India needs to develop, it would might have to come at a cost of millions. Some of the greatest empires were founded on a lot of bloodshed. Even the US was founded on mass massacres of the Native Americans, usurping their resources, and thereafter, slavery. The British Empire was founded on exploitation and bloodshed. Ditto with the Roman Empire. Strong empires and nations are founded on blood. Life in not a cakewalk. Show me one exception.

and @Navneet Kundu , @AnantS -

@pmaitra
Interesting debate by both sides. As an objective spectator of this conversation, however, while your observations of events are correct, your analysis may be flawed. Sir, you are looking at the events that took place as opposed to why it took place. And the why, to put it shortly, is near absolute 'NATIONALISM' created due to the presence of a common enemy; or more importantly by being hated by the rest of the world.

A) Britain: Being protestant, was ostracized by a largely catholic Europe that was constantly waging wars against it.
B) US: They were fighting the oppressive tax laws under King George and Britain. Simultaneously, they were fighting the natives. Fighting two big forces created a union of the colonies who were individually multi-national. Not unlike us in that we are also multi cultural.
C) Russia: They were graded as sub-human by the Nazis, hated by the Vatican, Europe and portrayed as incompetent by NATO who took all the credit for WW2 victories. The Russians knew the reality & knew what awaited them should they become weak (Genocide).

If you look more closely at USSR's success, you will find that it was the people, from basic workers to the heads of the industry and design bureaus, who carried Russia forward, often taking initiatives that, if failed would have meant their deaths. They did it to prove that they could do anything the rest of the world could do.

But you were right in the sense that there was bloodshed involved; but bloodshed against the country, not propagated by them.

We on the other hand are both hated and loved - depends on the convenience of the global powers. And we ourselves cannot see eye to eye on many issues. Who do we fight???

You want India to be a super-power, we need a common enemy (nowadays, even Pakistan seems to find supporters in India, as seen ) and we need to develop NATIONAL PRIDE (even we are fighting - Bengal, Maratha, Kerala, Punjab....).

That's my observation. But the cost of nationalism, as you predict may not be light.

 

[pmaitra]

and @Navneet Kundu , @AnantS -

@pmaitra
Interesting debate by both sides. As an objective spectator of this conversation, however, while your observations of events are correct, your analysis may be flawed. Sir, you are looking at the events that took place as opposed to why it took place. And the why, to put it shortly, is near absolute 'NATIONALISM' created due to the presence of a common enemy; or more importantly by being hated by the rest of the world.

A) Britain: Being protestant, was ostracized by a largely catholic Europe that was constantly waging wars against it.
B) US: They were fighting the oppressive tax laws under King George and Britain. Simultaneously, they were fighting the natives. Fighting two big forces created a union of the colonies who were individually multi-national. Not unlike us in that we are also multi cultural.
C) Russia: They were graded as sub-human by the Nazis, hated by the Vatican, Europe and portrayed as incompetent by NATO who took all the credit for WW2 victories. The Russians knew the reality & knew what awaited them should they become weak (Genocide).

If you look more closely at USSR's success, you will find that it was the people, from basic workers to the heads of the industry and design bureaus, who carried Russia forward, often taking initiatives that, if failed would have meant their deaths. They did it to prove that they could do anything the rest of the world could do.

But you were right in the sense that there was bloodshed involved; but bloodshed against the country, not propagated by them.

We on the other hand are both hated and loved - depends on the convenience of the global powers. And we ourselves cannot see eye to eye on many issues. Who do we fight???

You want India to be a super-power, we need a common enemy (nowadays, even Pakistan seems to find supporters in India, as seen ) and we need to develop NATIONAL PRIDE (even we are fighting - Bengal, Maratha, Kerala, Punjab....).

That's my observation. But the cost of nationalism, as you predict may not be light.

Good post @kr9.

It is common enemy that often galvanizes the people. In case of the USSR, there were internal enemies, such as the Vlasovites, and it was necessary to eliminate them. Stalin killed a lot of people. Some innocents, and some not so innocents.

The Vatican hated the Russians because of an old Orthodox-Catholic split in the 11th century.

If India needs to be a super-power, then it needs a common enemy that will galvanize the people, hopefully to victory.

What if there is no common enemy? I saw another thread called "Akhand Bharat." I think the way to galvanize India is to strengthen the federal structure. Let each region do what is best for them. In peace time, trying to tie all of India under one identity by force might backfire. We also need to weed out the Indian crab mentality. Instead of putting others down we need to speak good about ourselves, and encourage others to do good for themselves. We had so many states created recently (Telangana, Uttarkhand, Chhatisgarh, Jharkhand). There is a reason for that. A monolith will not survive the intricacies of governance in India, which is very complex.

We don't need to fight within ourselves, but there are elements within India who are divisive and are not able to get along with others. These elements, like the Indian crab, can't climb up, so will pull others down. The comment I made to @Navneet Kundu was something I rarely do (if you have seen my posts over the years), but it was necessary to put him in the right place, because he was blathering too much for a very long time.

 

[maomao]

Solution is simple - stop their foreign and internal funding, take their subsidies, take their scholarships, expose the anti-nationals & leftists, and and and and and I know for sure loads of Professors / Intellectuals are ideologue and handlers for these anti-nations - hence expose, name & shame them and throw them out of their jobs and make sure they do not get employed anywhere - let them call it witch hunt!!

 

[kr9]

Good post @kr9.

It is common enemy that often galvanizes the people. In case of the USSR,, there were internal enemies, such as the Vlasovites, and it was necessary to eliminate them. Stalin killed a lot of people. Some innocents, and some not so innocents.

The Vatican hated the Russians because of an old Orthodox-Catholic split in the 11th century.

If India needs to be a super-power, then it needs a common enemy that will galvanize the people, hopefully to victory.

What if there is no common enemy? I saw another thread called "Akhand Bharat." I think the way to galvanize India is to strengthen the federal structure. Let each region do what is best for them. In peace time, trying to tie all of India under one identity by force might backfire. We also need to weed out the Indian crab mentality. Instead of putting others down we need to speak good about ourselves, and encourage others to do good for themselves. We had so many states created recently (Telangana, Uttarkhand, Chhatisgarh, Jharkhand). There is a reason for that. A monolith will not survive the intricacies of governance in India, which is very complex.

We don't need to fight within ourselves, but there are elements within India who are divisive and are not able to get along with others. These elements, like the Indian crab, can't climb up, so will pull others down. The comment I made to @Navneet Kundu was something I rarely do (if you have seen my posts over the years), but it was necessary to put him in the right place, because he was blathering too much for a very long time.

Federal system in its own is yet to prove to bring a country together (as far as I know). US is federal and it still needs to wage continuous wars to keep up the national morale. And they have only 2 parties. In India, we have MLAs / MPs on all sides trying to make money by milking the communities. And our population count and justice system impairs strict adherence to national laws and its enforcement, which even in a federation, takes precedence over state laws.

Maybe we should start by hoisting national flags on all buildings, major streets, parks etc. and sound the national anthem through the loudspeakers instead of sermons, party manifestos etc for a change.

As for your debate with @Navneet Kundu , I have seen/replied to posts from both of you in many forums and to quote the Joker : "When an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.......".

I myself am biased, the only thing common among us in this forum is that we all put India first, although through different ideologies.
(Not counting noise makers from Pakistan.)

 

[pmaitra]

@kr9, the way I see it, the US has to wage wars for a reason slightly different from what you said. I think it is the military-industrial complex that seeks to wage wars. War is profit for them. I don't have any reason to believe that the majority of Americans favour wars or wars are necessary to galvanize the country.

P.S.: I have no desire to debate with anyone who continue to peddle half-truths. I might make an attempt, but if I see no sincere response, I will stop. No point reasoning with the unreasonable.

I think the CPI(Marxist) needed to be defended because they were being put in the same basket as the Naxalites, when in reality, they have been fighting the Naxalites for decades.

 

[kr9]

@kr9, the way I see it, the US has to wage wars for a reason slightly different from what you said. I think it is the military-industrial complex that seeks to wage wars. War is profit for them. I don't have any reason to believe that the majority of Americans favour wars or wars are necessary to galvanize the country.

Oh yes, I forgot about the corporations pulling the strings in today's world.

But I guess my fear of further division of states comes from the fact that others (Britain) have used our diversity against us. Are we really strong enough now to withstand another 'divide & rule'???
I have not visited all of India. I do not know.

Without a unified backbone (stronger national code, responsibility to nation etc...even cricket ....maybe ), we cannot counter such outside forces and anti-national sentiments masked as fundamental rights.

In any case, on topic, SC as the ultimate judicial power needs to issue court orders regarding fundamental duties, as a forum member rightly said in another post, can't remember the name - apologies, and create new stronger laws against anti national sentiments and activities and that should include media, politicians and foreign citizens, organizations, entities, etc - laws that are not open to loop holes and has only one interpretation.
(they seem to be issuing orders on every other subject.......)

 

[sasum]

I don't know what you are trying to say.

If India had a leader like Stalin, then India would have been far more powerful and developed than it is today. If India had a leader like Mao, India would have never lost Aksai Chin.

I am not a great fan of democracy. In a democracy, you have too many cooks and the broth is spoiled.

Do you get my point or not?

That, keyboard warriors are never interested in the meat of the matter, is too evident. A particular band of RW members (some mods included) here are trying to rediscover their spine, crass Hindu chauvinism on display, attempt to introspect is derided. A sense of hubris have dulled ability to see reason.
I think sir, many don't get your point.

 

[pmaitra]

That, keyboard warriors are never interested in the meat of the matter, is too evident. A particular band of RW members (some mods included) here are trying to rediscover their spine, crass Hindu chauvinism on display, attempt to introspect is derided. A sense of hubris have dulled ability to see reason.
I think sir, many don't get your point.

As far as I am concerned, I want a strong adherence to the constitution and the legal framework, and everybody, including the law enforcement and the administration must conform to it.

I don't have a problem with those that won't fight. I have a problem with those that won't fight and will disparage those that are doing the real fighting.

"Patriot: the person who can holler the loudest without knowing what he is hollering about." - Mark Twain.

Anyway, here is a very old post on this subject with plenty of references: Naxalite/Maoist insurgency in the Red Corridor & the CCP/PRC

 

[jackprince]

If you can offer a solution whereby we will have development, and quickly (emphasis added), without violence, I am all for it. Who would prefer violence over peace? So, what is your solution?

I might also add, I have met many Chinese people in life. I think the Chinese themselves are not so worried about Mao as much as non-Chinese are.

I agree, India has a large population, and scarce resources. We are headed towards a major turmoil. It is not a question of if, it is a question of when.

The Chinese that are left after purge, of course are not so worried about Mao. Also, the 2nd or 3rd Gen Chinese Americans whom you might have met, who were not brainwashed by Chinese education system from childhood, would not bother about what might have happened about 70 years back, just like the descendants of East Pakistan refugees don't care what's happening in Bangladesh right now, or what happened in past.

Also, the development of PRC was not due to Mao, but Deng Xiaoping. And, the development did not begin at 40's, but in 1978. Do not mislead people.

 

[pmaitra]

The Chinese that are left after purge, of course are not so worried about Mao. Also, the 2nd or 3rd Gen Chinese Americans whom you might have met, who were not brainwashed by Chinese education system from childhood, would not bother about what might have happened about 70 years back, just like the descendants of East Pakistan refugees don't care what's happening in Bangladesh right now, or what happened in past.

I have met both Chinese and Chinese Americans.

Also, the development of PRC was not due to Mao, but Deng Xiaoping. And, the development did not begin at 40's, but in 1978. Do not mislead people.

I am not misleading anyone. I think you need to re-read what I have written, so that you don't mislead yourself into interpreting what I did not say.

Here is a re-cap.
The reforms carried out by Deng Xiaoping was based on the foundation left behind by Mao. The foundations, amongst other things, is that of discipline and obedience. That is why his reforms worked. PRC already had a working military industrial complex, set up with the help of the USSR, before Deng came into the picture. Deng's contribution was turning PRC into a cheap product supplier for the west. Had he been an Indian, his reforms would not have had the type of effect in India as it had in PRC.

Again, I am not talking only about Deng's reforms. I am talking about Deng's reforms and the backdrop in which he carried out his reforms.

 

[sasum]

PRC already had a working military industrial complex, set up with the help of the USSR, before Deng came into the picture. Deng's contribution was turning PRC into a cheap product supplier for the west. Had he been an Indian, his reforms would not have had the type of effect in India as it had in PRC.

This is what Right Wingers in our country can't appreciate.

 

[Nuvneet Kundu]

The fact that you have an ethnic hatred against Bengalis is not unknown to me. You have some serious self esteem issues. Not my problem.

Nobody supports Naxalites here. That you accuse me so is preposterous.

As I said earlier, it is the members of the Commnist Party of India (Marxist) who faced Naxalite bullets and fought on the ground. This has been happening since 1970s. Bengal is not a place for wimps.

Real men fight real battles. Little men, or those little less than men, bluster over the internet. You are one example of a person suffering from a little man syndrome.

So, I recommend you wear some bangles and get back into the kitchen. I can sense that cowardice runs in your DNA.

So, take your certificate of patriotism and shove it up where the sun does not shine.

What real battle are you fighting? even you are blustering over the internet

 

[sasum]

So, I recommend you wear some bangles and get back into the kitchen. I can sense that cowardice runs in your DNA.

I recommended @Nuvneet Kundu to drink complan.

 

[Anikastha]

Guys Guys Guys...Just now I saw a video of Arnab goswami Lashing 'adarsh liberals and sicilar of india.
Can some one post it here plz.
I got this video on whatsapp.

 

[Razor]

The Chinese that are left after purge, of course are not so worried about Mao. Also, the 2nd or 3rd Gen Chinese Americans whom you might have met, who were not brainwashed by Chinese education system from childhood, would not bother about what might have happened about 70 years back, just like the descendants of East Pakistan refugees don't care what's happening in Bangladesh right now, or what happened in past.

Also, the development of PRC was not due to Mao, but Deng Xiaoping. And, the development did not begin at 40's, but in 1978. Do not mislead people.

1. Even chinese just off the boat don't have much bad to say about Mao, in spite of prodding on my side. Maybe I wasn't lucky enough to meet Mao-hating Han.

2. Sure Dung was crucial in the economic front, but a foundation is required for a country that has been devasted by war and plunder and which had been divided into feifdoms by dozens of competing warlords. In addition the christian sun yat sen (KMT) needing putting down.
China is a civilization pretending to be a country (similar to india in a way) authoritarian governments are important to unify such entities.
I reckon the chinese understand this on a subconscious level, considering that their country was founded by a hardcore authoritarian (Qin.)

 

[Ancient Indian]

@Navneet Kundu Did you get the picture?
This also one of reason why I troll these guys most of times.

 

[Bornubus]

Sometimes I wonder that Col Purohit (allegedly) picked a wrong target.The filth was always amongst us not over the border and M N Rai was the first Jihadi.

We need a RAW covert strike if govt is so insecure of taking an action due to the pressure of pressitutes,sickulars and Vatican.

 

[pmaitra]

1. Even chinese just off the boat don't have much bad to say about Mao, in spite of prodding on my side. Maybe I wasn't lucky enough to meet Mao-hating Han.

2. Sure Dung was crucial in the economic front, but a foundation is required for a country that has been devasted by war and plunder and which had been divided into feifdoms by dozens of competing warlords. In addition the christian sun yat sen (KMT) needing putting down.
China is a civilization pretending to be a country (similar to india in a way) authoritarian governments are important to unify such entities.
I reckon the chinese understand this on a subconscious level, considering that their country was founded by a hardcore authoritarian (Qin.)

Actually, Deng inherited a lot of industrial infrastructure when he rose in position in 1978, and then in 1981. He continued the one child policy, that was one major factor for PRC's progress.

The Chinese have been building and assembling aircraft and submarines since the 1950s. There was no Deng at that time.

Many people think that PRC was a depraved rotten agricultural state and Deng came, waved a magic wand, and turned it into heaven.