What's difference between Party and Country? Good question.

pmaitra

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My feet! If we really want to choose someone who can really represent Chinese people who are struggling for life between you and Badguy. Badguy is much more qualified than you to that. No doubt Badguy is having a fine job (working in ICBC is quite a good job), but I am sure that doesn't come easily. People without a good background has to work hard before he gets into ICBC, say getting into good university, studying well while in university and performing well during the job interview.Badguy may not be struggling for life as of now, but he definitely has done that before, what he is enjoying now is the payment of his diligence and intelligence. People who is having a good life through his hardworking and smartness should be respected by all sensible people.
Nimo, there is a reason why people are cursing CCP. Indians are used to parliamentary and multi-party democracy and authoritarianism does not strike much chord with Indians. Most of the criticism comes w.r.t. the autocratic way CCP functions. We have discussed this elsewhere: Indians do not hate average Chinese. The point that many members have tried to make is that PRC needs to have freedom of speech, freedom of expression and scope for an opposition political party (or parties).

CCP definitely gets credit for making PRC a superpower in Asia and almost one in the whole world. I will give them due credit for that. By the same token, I reserve the right to point out the flaws as well.
 

Ray

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I believe the comparison of achievements between China and India in the past 60 years answered all questiones from Indian members.
Automation ensures faster production.

Automated people will naturally do better.

Robotics have proved it so and their tools are robots.

Robots have no mind or desires of their own.

But automation burns people out except maybe those who worship money.
 

Ray

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Badguy,

It appears that whoever this Gordon Chang is, he sure has spooked you out of your pants!

Why do you quote this Gordon Chang? He is not known in India, but must be a celebrity in China.

Who cares?
 

redragon

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Automation ensures faster production.

Automated people will naturally do better.

Robotics have proved it so and their tools are robots.

Robots have no mind or desires of their own.

But automation burns people out except maybe those who worship money.
It has took 60 yrs, but we are still burning, :).
Robots??? Come on Ray, you can do better than that, you should use other reasons such us democracy and aging population.
you are right about one thing though, chinese really are worshiping money, non exception among chinese people I know
 

Ray

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It has took 60 yrs, but we are still burning, :).
Robots??? Come on Ray, you can do better than that, you should use other reasons such us democracy and aging population.
you are right about one thing though, chinese really are worshiping money, non exception among chinese people I know

I am not a 'regime change' advocate nor one who believes in 'Freedom and Democracy' (as enunciated by George Bush).

I only feel that the mind of man should be free to think, innovate and discover.

A country that had thinkers like Confucius, sun Tsu etc and a country that had many firsts in inventions and discovery is today only excelling itself as a copy cat and stealing civilisation.

That is what makes me wonder.

Is this the Chinese civilisation and innovative people that our history books talk about?

Were they always a copy cat and stealing people or were they really great thinkers, inventors, discoverers and the like!!
 

redragon

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I am not a 'regime change' advocate nor one who believes in 'Freedom and Democracy' (as enunciated by George Bush).

I only feel that the mind of man should be free to think, innovate and discover.

A country that had thinkers like Confucius, sun Tsu etc and a country that had many firsts in inventions and discovery is today only excelling itself as a copy cat and stealing civilisation.

That is what makes me wonder.

Is this the Chinese civilisation and innovative people that our history books talk about?

Were they always a copy cat and stealing people or were they really great thinkers, inventors, discoverers and the like!!
We, Chinese, are patient and pratical, given some times those things you mentioned will be back.
Now, I should really cut back from posting online, so much things to be done in my real life and in China as well. I want to get richer so I will keep worshiping and dreaming money, and China has a world super power title to pursue, please excuse both of us
 

pmaitra

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question is that it is very hard to find a party who can make China develope so fast as CCP in the world. can you tell me one?
Sure. Why not? All those people who have been imprisoned, gagged or executed by PRC. Ever heard of Liu Xiaobo?

If there are no other party in PRC to perform better than CCP, then why does CCP not allow other parties? What are they scared of?

At least, no custom officials in CHina dare openly blackmails the people in the gate of customs .

However, lots of CHinese are being blackmailed by local customs officals in the gate of India's customs,as I know.
How did you know about it? Because there is freedom of speech and press in India. There is none in PRC, so you don't hear about it and just think every thing is as perfect as Utopia in PRC, isn't it? Ignorance is bliss.


well, there are lots of more cruel ones indeed. here is just one of them.
I am sure that such case would happen in CHina,too,if "democracy" kickok advocate were to happen in CHina.
I know exactly how local gang mafias took the political power of some villages by village election in Guangdong ,when village election weaken CCP's control of those villages.
Local gang/mafias do not represent democracy, neither does democracy advocate gang/mafia culture. What gangs/mafia do is ensure that power flows from the barrel of the gun [pun intended] and not from the ballot. This is not democracy.


Frankly speaking,you as one indians should know it better how easily the votes of villagers can be bought by some guys,including gang mafias.
It may be possible to bribe a few members of a parliament, congress or senate, it is not possible to buy the votes of the masses, not for long. Eventually, people revolt. Just look at middle east today. People are not even scared of the army. Read some history, about Bloody Sunday, French Revolution, Berlin Wall, collapse of the USSR, Tienanmen Square ... there are countless examples.
 

badguy2000

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Sure. Why not? All those people who have been imprisoned, gagged or executed by PRC. Ever heard of Liu Xiaobo?
Liu Xiaobo is nothing but one old Fenqing.
the only value of Liu is west's tool to embarrase CHina.

If there are no other party in PRC to perform better than CCP, then why does CCP not allow other parties? What are they scared of?
well ,"other parties" indeed exists,although they are usually the yesmen of CCP.

How did you know about it? Because there is freedom of speech and press in India. There is none in PRC, so you don't hear about it and just think every thing is as perfect as Utopia in PRC, isn't it? Ignorance is bliss.
guy, case might hurt you,that in the eyes of most Chinese common, the democracy of India is usually not looked on as one success,but one failure.

To those pro-democracy Chinese like Kickok, the status quo of India usually is not one useful asset,but one negative debts to prove the superiorty of democracy.

Local gang/mafias do not represent democracy, neither does democracy advocate gang/mafia culture. What gangs/mafia do is ensure that power flows from the barrel of the gun [pun intended] and not from the ballot. This is not democracy.
we are not discussin with "what is democray". we are discussing if China would be free from such election mess and disorder if democracy were to happen in CHina.

I don't think so.


It may be possible to bribe a few members of a parliament, congress or senate, it is not possible to buy the votes of the masses, not for long. Eventually, people revolt. Just look at middle east today. People are not even scared of the army. Read some history, about Bloody Sunday, French Revolution, Berlin Wall, collapse of the USSR, Tienanmen Square ... there are countless examples.
how many villagers are there usually in one CHinese village? 5000 usually

how much for one vote? as I know, 100RMB for one vote often happens in the village-level elections in Guangdong.
so in theory, only 500K RMB can buy all votes in one village.

so, the finals of "democracy elections" are usually not "heaven" you imagine, but mafia rule like Mexico and the phelippines .
 
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pmaitra

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Liu Xiaobo is nothing but one old Fenqing.
the only value of Liu is west's tool to embarrase CHina.
Strange how one man could embarrass the high and mighty PRC and CCP. Power does not necessarily flow from the barrel of the gun, bud! Sometimes, the pen is mightier than the sword.

well ,"other parties" indeed exists,although they are usually the yesmen of CCP.
You said it.

guy, case might hurt you,that in the eyes of most Chinese common, the democracy of India is usually not looked on as one success,but one failure.

To those pro-democracy Chinese like Kickok, the status quo of India usually is not one useful asset,but one negative debts to prove the superiorty of democracy.
Why on earth would the CCP portray Indian democracy as a success? Would it not be suicidal for the CCP? Duh!

I doesn't hurt me at all. Au contraire, I find it quite amusing.

we are not discussin with "what is democray". we are discussing if China would be free from such election mess and disorder if democracy were to happen in CHina.

I don't think so.
You don't think so. That is your opinion. I would not insult the Chinese by insinuating that they cannot have a functioning and healthy democracy.



how many villagers are there usually in one CHinese village? 5000 usually

how much for one vote? as I know, 100RMB for one vote often happens in the village-level elections in Guangdong.
so in theory, only 50K RMB can buy all votes in one village.

so, the finals of "democracy elections" are usually not "heaven" you imagine, but mafia rule like Mexico and the phelippines .
Looks like the only two examples you can cite about democracy are Mexico and Philippines.

Should I be surprised that examples in Europe, USA and Canada escaped your attention? Or is it a manifestation of robotic thinking cultivated among the Chinese by the CCP?
 
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badguy2000

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Strange how one man could embarrass the high and mighty PRC and CCP. Power does not necessarily flow from the barrel of the gun, bud! Sometimes, the pen is mightier than the sword.



You said it.



Why on earth would the CCP portray Indian democracy as a success? Would it not be suicidal for the CCP? Duh!

I doesn't hurt me at all. Au contraire, I find it quite amusing.
haha, the failure of India's democracy is not from CCP's portray, but from the reports from your medias such as rediff and the blogs from travellors....


guy, I often study the mentality of indian common,by surfing indian netizens comments on rediff .

But can you study the mentality of CHinese common,by surfing CHinese netizens comments on CHinese popular websites?

that is the difference between you and me.

you are the yesmen of the second-hand information about Chinese from CNN-style medias.

But I am the one who can learn the first-hand information by reading the comment from India grassroot.
 
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badguy2000

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Looks like the only two examples you can cite about democracy are Mexico and Philippines.

Should I be surprised that examples in Europe, USA and Canada escaped your attention? Or is it a manifestations of robotic thinking cultivated among the Chinese by the CCP?
well, the list is quite long,such as doznes of states in Africans and Latin Americans,including India.

franky speaking, India is also in the league of mexicon and Philippines.....I didn't pointed it out just because I didn't want to hurt you.

the victims in the mess ,riots and rebells caused by failure of india democracy is more than anyone else. such messes include "maoist rebells, train incidents,religion conflicts and rompant curruption...etc'

the incapable and ineffiecent performance of India democracy is just a example how democracy become one failure,just as N.Korea is one example how communism becomes one failure.

Yes. the democracy can work in Eurpoe ,USA and Canada now, but it doesn't naturally prove that it can work in China or India. and the democray's failure in most devleoping countries just prove that it is quite possible that it can not work in CHina.

Beside, "democracy" is never the universal value, but one of many way to reach universal value, that is , make the world more peaceful ,orderly and rich.
 
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kickok1975

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I would say let's close the post and move on.

It's a waste of time to continue debating here while each party cannot persuade others. Indian members should stop telling the benefit of democracy since most Chinese member in this forum would not believe such thing can work for China.

At some degree, Badguy2000, reddragon, Nimo-cn are all right about China. Majority of Chinese people don't care about democracy or autocracy as long as they can make more money. Those pro-democracy people will be considered as naive and fool and will only wasting their blood to against regime since people don't have such spirit and will have no sympathy on them.

Today, we are a nation with people probably more favor materialism than any other nations in the world .That's the bitter truth hard to face but it's the fact there is no soil for democracy to born and grow in China, at least in today's China. Indian members should not spend time discussing the very issue with Chinese members anymore since no consent could possibly be made. Let Chinese history run its course and let time tells what's going to happen. Be it good or bad, only Chinese people will experience the most.
 
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Ray

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franky speaking, India is also in the league of mexicon and Philippines.....I didn't pointed it out just because I didn't want to hurt you.

the victims in the mess ,riots and rebells caused by failure of india democracy is more than anyone else. such messes include "maoist rebells, train incidents,religion conflicts and rompant curruption...etc'

the incapable and ineffiecent performance of India democracy is just a example how democracy become one failure,just as N.Korea is one example how communism becomes one failure.
Indeed, things are not perfect in India. The many threads out that has no hesitation it telling it as it is, proves it so. Indians, have no reason, or fear or for favours spout that it is a land of milk and honey. It has a free media and the media leaves no stones unturned to hunt for the truth and sometime, even motivated 'truth'.

Even when there are riots or unrest, foreigners are not shunted out. In fact, the foreign media is allowed to cover all and take interviews.

If it a drawback of democracy, so be it.

Now, could we talk about China?

One would love to, but isn't the Bamboo curtain prevented the truth from flowing out?

Won't like to hurt you, but can we start with Tibet and East Turkmenistan, based on the little that seeped out from tight military cordon and shunting out of foreigners and the media?

The Mao rebels are the gift of China (read the thread). Kashmir (the gift of Pakistan and its 1000 cuts theory), religious conflicts is there where there is religion (no free religion is there in China); in fact, in Muslim country inspite of having one religion, there is fight amongst the different branches, and in Pakistan, on a daily basis!!

Did you read the thread on the Chinese writer and how he is curbed?
 

thakur_ritesh

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I would say let's close the post and move on.

It's a waste of time to continue debating here while each party cannot persuade others. Indian members should stop telling the benefit of democracy since most Chinese member in this forum would not believe such thing can work for China.

At some degree, Badguy2000, reddragon, Nimo-cn are all right about China. Majority of Chinese people don't care about it as long as they can make more money. Those pro-democracy people will be considered as naive and fool and will only wasting their blood to against regime since people don't have such spirit and will have no sympathy on them.

Today, we are a nation with people probably more favor materialism than any other nations in the world .That's the bitter truth hard to face but it's the fact there is no soil for democracy to born and grow in China, at least in today's China. Indian members should not spend time discussing the very issue with Chinese members anymore since no consent could possibly be made. Let Chinese history run its course and let time tells what's going to happen. Be it good or bad, only Chinese people will experience the most.
issue is do we have access to the ordinary chinese people here or are we debating and discussing with the ccp workers employed to spread the ccp pearls of wisdom? if it is latter then it gets pointless as you say.
 

pmaitra

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I would say let's close the post and move on.

It's a waste of time to continue debating here while each party cannot persuade others. Indian members should stop telling the benefit of democracy since most Chinese member in this forum would not believe such thing can work for China.

At some degree, Badguy2000, reddragon, Nimo-cn are all right about China. Majority of Chinese people don't care about it as long as they can make more money. Those pro-democracy people will be considered as naive and fool and will only wasting their blood to against regime since people don't have such spirit and will have no sympathy on them.

Today, we are a nation with people probably more favor materialism than any other nations in the world .That's the bitter truth hard to face but it's the fact there is no soil for democracy to born and grow in China, at least in today's China. Indian members should not spend time discussing the very issue with Chinese members anymore since no consent could possibly be made. Let Chinese history run its course and let time tells what's going to happen. Be it good or bad, only Chinese people will experience the most.
Kickok1975, you have a point. I agree we cannot persuade each other. However, there is another angle to it. Why not keep debating, even if there is little hope of some kind of agreement, for the benefit of visitors who might browse these interesting threads at DFI?

Also, if I have said something that hurts you as a Chinese, then I do apologise. We are all humans and slaves to our emotions.
 

Ray

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I would say let's close the post and move on.

It's a waste of time to continue debating here while each party cannot persuade others. Indian members should stop telling the benefit of democracy since most Chinese member in this forum would not believe such thing can work for China.

At some degree, Badguy2000, reddragon, Nimo-cn are all right about China. Majority of Chinese people don't care about it as long as they can make more money. Those pro-democracy people will be considered as naive and fool and will only wasting their blood to against regime since people don't have such spirit and will have no sympathy on them.

Today, we are a nation with people probably more favor materialism than any other nations in the world .That's the bitter truth hard to face but it's the fact there is no soil for democracy to born and grow in China, at least in today's China. Indian members should not spend time discussing the very issue with Chinese members anymore since no consent could possibly be made. Let Chinese history run its course and let time tells what's going to happen. Be it good or bad, only Chinese people will experience the most.
It is good that the Chinese have started to worship Money as their God!

Just as the Americans wanted.

The Chinese capitalism has promoted Greed and will continue to grow. However, there will come a time that there will be no more. It will lead to frustration. Alongside, those who cannot make money as their neighbours will be jealous and filled with envy.

All this is but a witches' brew.

And when the cauldron boils?




Some Chinese proverbs:


Love is blind, and greed insatiable.
Chinese Proverb

There is no greater calamity than being consumed by greed.
Chinese Proverb.

A man's greed is like a snake that wants to swallow an elephant.
Chinese Proverb.

The Chinese have some wise proverbs.
 
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kickok1975

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Kickok1975, you have a point. I agree we cannot persuade each other. However, there is another angle to it. Why not keep debating, even if there is little hope of some kind of agreement, for the benefit of visitors who might browse these interesting threads at DFI?

Also, if I have said something that hurts you as a Chinese, then I do apologise. We are all humans and slaves to our emotions.
You have nothing offended me. After reading many posts, today I just had a feeling of pessimistic about China's future which I never had before. I'm really tired and need take a break. You guys can keep debating but I need breathe some fresh air.
 
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Ray

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Have a look at this:

Words We Can Use, and Those We Can Not
By MURONG XUECUN
Published: February 23, 2011

Murong Xuecun, the pen name of Hao Qun, 37, is one of China's early Internet writers, best known for the novel ''Leave Me Alone: A Novel of Chengdu.'' Recently, a nonfiction work, ''The Missing Ingredient,'' about going underground to uncover a pyramid scheme, won him the 2010 People's Literature Prize, but he was unexpectedly barred from making an acceptance speech. He delivered it instead on Tuesday before the Foreign Correspondents Club in Hong Kong:

If I am not mistaken, the People's Literature magazine "special action award" was not bestowed for my literary achievement, but for my courage. This is an unusual honor for me as a writer. It's a bit like praising a football player for being a good street fighter.

I'm embarrassed because I am not a brave person. Genuine bravery for a writer is not about jousting with a pyramid-scam gang. It is about calmly speaking the truth when everyone else is silenced, when the truth cannot be expressed. It is about speaking out with a different voice, risking the wrath of the state and offending everyone, for the sake of the truth, and the writer's conscience.

Actually, I am a coward. I say only what is safe to say, and I criticize only what is permissible to criticize.

I finished my latest book some time ago, and the most important reason for the delay in publication was that I came up against a rather peculiar editor.

Over the course of two months, he and I had some interesting verbal duels. I smashed a cup on the floor, I spoke a few strong words to him. I furiously punched the wall at home, but finally I capitulated.

This editor is a cautious person. Whatever the circumstances, the first thing he thinks of is safety. In his view, it would have been preferable not to publish my book at all; this would be the safest way.

Even if he was forced to publish it, he told me it was best to avoid talking about anything real, because anything real entails risk. The moment I had opinions, I became a danger. I disagreed with him, but I know he is not the only one to hold this view.

My new book tells the story of my time spent undercover inside an illegal pyramid-sales organization. It included this phrase: "This group, mostly made up of people from Henan, was called the 'Henan network."'

To the editor, this harmless sentence aroused safety issues because the phrase "Henan people" carries an air of regional discrimination. He suggested that we rework the phrase as: "They were all Henan peasants, and so this network was called the Henan network, and was made up of mostly Henan people." I asked him why. He said that by changing "people" to "peasants," more sophisticated Henan people would not feel slighted.

I tried to bargain with him: "In my original version there were two sentences, it would be too wordy if there were three. Why don't we cut the first one?" He thought about it for ages and then agreed, and so we arrived at the final version: "This group, called the 'Henan network,' was made up mostly of Henan people." In the end, all that changed was the word order.

As you may have guessed, this editor didn't just cut a few words like "Henan people," but also many sentences, paragraphs and even whole sections and chapters.

From my many years' experience in writing and publishing, I could compile a Sensitive Words Glossary, in which you would certainly find the words "system," "law," "government," as well as a large number of other nouns, several verbs, quite a few adjectives, and even a few special numbers. The glossary would also include all names of religions, all names of important people, all countries, including of course China, and also the phrase "Chinese people."

In many places in my new book, "Chinese people" was changed to "some people," or even "a small number of people." If I critiqued some part of traditional Chinese culture, the editor would change it to "the bureaucratic culture of ancient China." If I brought up anything contemporary, he would ask me instead to refer to Zhu Yuanzhang, the founder of the Ming Dynasty, or Wu Zetian, a notorious Tang dynasty empress, or Europe of the Middle Ages.


Readers of my book may think I'm mad. Obviously I'm writing about contemporary things so why am I repeatedly criticizing Empress Wu?

Well, the reader may be right: At this time, in this place, Chinese writing exhibits symptoms of a mental disorder. I am not a Chinese writer so much as a person with a mental disorder.

Some people will say that one shouldn't use the case of one particular editor to damn the system. I agree, but still I want to ask: What makes a paranoid editor? I confess that his fear infected me. I would also ask what kind of system could make me, a law-abiding citizen, a writer, live in indescribable fear?

There are journalists here, and perhaps some others, who may report later that I have delivered an angry speech. Well, I am not angry. I believe I am not alone; this is the situation faced by all of China's writers. The fear I feel is not just the fear felt by one writer, but by all of our writers.

Unfortunately, I have dedicated great effort to the task of compiling this Sensitive Words Glossary, and I have mastered my filtering skills. When I wrote my latest book, I knew which words had to be cut, and I accepted the cutting as if that was the way it should be. In fact, I will often take it on myself to save time and cut a few words.

This is castrated writing. I am a proactive eunuch, I castrate myself even before the surgeon raises his scalpel.

Our language has been cut into two parts: one safe, and the other risky. Some words are revolutionary, and others are reactionary; some words we may use, and others belong to our enemies.

The most unfortunate thing is that despite my experience, I still don't always know which words are legal and which illegal, and as a result I often unknowingly commit a "word crime." When I stand at a podium to receive a prize, I feel uncomfortable calling myself a writer — I am merely a word criminal.

Some people would say that this is just the way things are. My feeling is that I am already close to suffocation. I struggled to choose safe words in a linguistic minefield. It seems that every single Chinese word looks suspicious. I want to say that this not only harms my works, it also harms our language.

This is our great language, the language of the philosopher Zhuangzi and the poets Li Bai and Su Dongpo and the grand historian Sima Qian. Maybe our grandchildren and the children of our grandchildren will rediscover many beautiful words and phrases that no longer exist. But sadly, even now, we continue to arrogantly proclaim that our language is on the rise.

The only speakable truth is that we cannot speak the truth. The only acceptable viewpoint is that we cannot express a viewpoint. We cannot criticize the system, we cannot discuss current affairs, we cannot even mention distant Ethiopia. Sometimes I can't help wondering: Is the Cultural Revolution really over?


I know these words are not appropriate for this time and place, as I accept an award. They may be deemed naïve. But at this time, in this place, I still adhere to a kind of naïve reasoning: when the air quality deteriorates, I feel we should do something; not simply shut our mouths and stop breathing. Rather, we must act, to defend our language, to improve the environment. Most of all, this is what a writer should do. Only by saying this kind of thing do I deserve a prize for literature.

I hope that we can agree on a few things:

Literature is not at the service of the government; on the contrary, governments should do everything in their power to create a favorable climate for literature.

If we cannot get rid of censorship, then I hope we can be a little more relaxed about it; if we cannot be relaxed, at least let us be a little more intelligent.

If there really were a Sensitive Words Glossary, I hope that it could be published; in this way at least we could all save a lot of time, and reduce the possibility of unwittingly committing "word crimes."

Writers shouldn't be parrots, and they definitely should not be yapping house pets; they should have a clear mind and speak with an honest voice. When they take up their pens, they are nobody's slave, they have the right to pledge loyalty to no one; and to speak the truth and be true to their own consciences.


Finally, I want to say that I am not a class enemy, I am not a troublemaker, nor an overthrower of governments. I am just a citizen who makes suggestions. My words may be sharp, but please believe in my good intentions.


Like most people, I dream of living in a perfect world, but I am still willing to give my all for an imperfect world.

The speech was translated from the Chinese by Harvey Thomlinson, Jane Weizhen Pan and Martin Merz.

Link
This speech was delivered by a Chinese writer to mostly Chinese and in Hong Kong.

What is interesting and extraordinary is that the writer was awarded the 2010 People's Literature Prize, but he was unexpectedly barred from making an acceptance speech. He delivered it instead on Tuesday before the Foreign Correspondents Club in Hong Kong.

So, why give the prize if he is to be barred and has to go elsewhere to accept it?

What he says about the fear craze that grips China is what is so well known and posters like China Today claim indirectly that it is not so! I am sure a Chinese writer who has been awarded the 2010 People's Literature Prize, would know what he is talking about that many of those who obfuscate and hide behind the very issues the writer states in his speech.

It is not 'Indian logic' (whatever that means, that the Chinese poster alluded to in one of the threads) but sheer, pure and undiluted Chinese logic that the writer uses and being a writer, he would know best what constricts his thought and speech than what he rather interestingly alludes to - parrots!

I am posting this to only indicate and assist the non Chinese posters as to what is 'Chinese logic' and how repressive the manner in which the freedom of thought, creative thinking is curbed.

I would only once again reiterate that the writer is no common Chinese, but a writer and more importantly, a recognised writer who has been awarded the 2010 People's Literature Prize.

http://defenceforumindia.com/showthread.php?t=19624
In other words, the Party is the Nation.

And that the Party controls the Mind and Thought!!
 

badguy2000

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issue is do we have access to the ordinary chinese people here or are we debating and discussing with the ccp workers employed to spread the ccp pearls of wisdom? if it is latter then it gets pointless as you say.
if you want to tell the voice of CCP worker and ordicnary Chinese people.pls study CHinese first.

otherwise,you are always the yesmen of second-information hawed by CNN-style medias.
 

pmaitra

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You have nothing offended me. After reading many posts, today I just had a feeling of pessimistic about China's future which I never felt before. I just felt tired and need take a break. You guys can keep debating but I need breathe some fresh air.
Kickok1975, thanks for the clarification. That makes me feel better. I was thinking that this debate was probably hurting your sentiments.

We have disagreed on many occasions and probably will in the future, but I always get the feeling that you are very balanced, objective, benevolent towards your opponents-in-debate and most importantly honest about your feelings.

It is a pleasure to have you with us. :)
 

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