What is "Mid Class" in your country?!

[badguy2000]

"Mid Class" is a very vague term. its defination varies much in different countries.

In China, "Mid Class" usually means :

1.they should have decent non-blue- collar jobs such as civil servants,bankers,doctors,teacher or businessmen.
2.they should decent income. I think that their families yearly income should >700K rupees in inland China /1400 K Rupees in coastal China.
3. they should own two real assets in urban areas and one car at least while owning few debts

In fact, according to the above criterion, only 100-200 million CHinese can be tagged as " Mid Class" at most, I think.

However, there are lots of "potential mid class" in China. Those "potential mid class" has decent jobs and income while still has their own real assets.
Those CHinese "potential mid class" mostly are those young well-educated white-collars. I am one of them. I am sure that I will own 2 real assets at least when I retire,althouh I still has only one and own banks lots of debts now.iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii


so ,guy, how about the difination of "mid class" in your country?

 

[amoy]

Frankly a bit shocked by your criteria of Mid Class in China

>700K rupees in inland China /1400 K Rupees in coastal China.
-------------
own two real assets in urban areas and one car at least while owning few debts

if Rupee47/US$ (am I correct) I don't think 100-200 million CHinese (even inclusive of dependants) can be above your bar.

Man, 700k ruppee=usd14.9k =rmb102k that's pretty much per HOUSEHOLD per annum!!

to be straightforward there's not that big a 'Mid Class' in China!!! Learn more geography and look at the map, China being so vast covering Sichuan, Gansu, Guizhou......... Put your feet on the ground pls!

 

[Singh]

Middle Class, I presume is defined by economists. Someone who owns particular objects, has a particular asset base and who has particular annual or otherwise income.

 

[Yusuf]

Good roti, kapda aur makan would make our mid class here. In india we have lower mid class, mid class and upper mid class. Hell we have people earning 10 million rupees a year call themselves mid class. So pretty much half the population of india is mid class.

 

[badguy2000]

Frankly a bit shocked by your criteria of Mid Class in China

if Rupee47/US$ (am I correct) I don't think 100-200 million CHinese (even inclusive of dependants) can be above your bar.

Man, 700k ruppee=usd14.9k =rmb102k that's pretty much per HOUSEHOLD per annum!!

to be straightforward there's not that big a 'Mid Class' in China!!! Learn more geography and look at the map, China being so vast covering Sichuan, Gansu, Guizhou......... Put your feet on the ground pls!

for your refence:

The Pearl Delta(42 million population), Yangtzi Delta(75 million population) and Beijing-Tianjin metropolis-belt(25 million Population) all have a per capital nominal GDP of 10K+ USD.
Plus other small advanced industrialized areas, I think that at least 200 million Chinese live in the areas with a 10K+ per capital nominal GDP.

Generally speaking, avearage salary= per capital nominal GDP*70%

In china, both husbands and wives have jobs. So. the average yearly family income of those 200 million Chinese (Peral Detal,Yangzi Delta ,Beijing-Tian Metropolis and other small industrialized areas) =20K USD*70%=14K USD=95 K RMB=665K Rupees.

BTW, "Mid Class" in CHinese is "中产阶级“, which mean is more closer to " Upper mid Class" in India.

 

[hit&run]

My mom and dad both earning 30k Rs. per month in Public sector. I was earning 25k Rs as attending consultant(2 years experience) my wife 20k as RMO both private hospital. we have a maruti zen car, a double storey ( brick and concrete) house covering 300 yards and 700 open land. We are 4 person in household and most of my relatives have same kind of annual household income and assets. Just 10 years back we were all low mid family but things have changed very fast. My sister in law and her husband both are MBA working in Chandigarh and earning more then 60k per month each(3 years experience). According to my dad a family of 5 earning 40k per month is typical mid family and can survive well in India, he also tells me there is no limit of expenditure, rest and sleep .

3 years old:
http://trak.in/tags/business/2007/09/13/indian-income-earnings/

The income levels of Indians have increased phenomenally over last few years and so is the standard of living. The economy is on the rise and India is coming out from being called a third world country to a developing country.

What does this mean? What are the Indian income levels? How much is the income growing year on year? Here are some of the answers based on the survey conducted by CLSA:

Over 70m households (34% of total) earn Rs. 80,000 to Rs. 18,00,000 per annum
Six hundred thousand households earn more than Rs. 18,00,000 per annum.
Households earning between Rs. 80,000 – Rs. 18,00,000 to hit 106m by 2010
Market researchers believe that household income is massively understated – baggage of the era of controls and usurious taxes
Independent studies suggest 1.6 million households earn over Rs 40 lakh per annum and about 100,000 people have more than Rs. 4 crore in assets.
Real Incomes increased by 12%; However, real GDP per capita has grown at 10% over FY02-07.
50% of the people have seen incomes rise in the past 12 months; 9% have seen their Incomes decline.
Of those with income increases, one-third saw a more than 10% rise.
Average rise in income was lowest in west India at 10% and highest in the east at 18%.
63% expect their incomes to rise in the next 12 months; average expected increase is 12.7%
83% of people believe that they are better off than 10 years ago 84% expect further improvement in their lives over the next five years
I agree with the independent studies that ‘1.6 million households earn over Rs 40 lakh per annum and about 100,000 people have more than Rs. 4 crore in assets’. Although, the figures may look big, it is the reality. It is estimated that black money floating in the market is more than 40% of our GDP amounting to more than $400 billion. Where is all that money?

 

[Vinod2070]

The definition of middle class varies by country and by circumstances.

In India, now cars are common enough in middle class homes, it was not so a decade back.

I think rather some arbitary number of real estate or family income, it is the ability of the family to live decently well, educate the children well and have decent healthcare is what should count as middle class.

The cost of living again comes into the picture as well and by that measure, within India middle class incomes would be different in rural and urban areas.

The numbers of middle class Indians is hazy and differ widely in various reports. I would say we have about 300-400 million Indian who could classify as middle class based on this criteria.

 

[badguy2000]

Even in different areas of China, the Criterion of "mid class" varies much,because life cost varies much .

In Chinese Grade A cities such as Beijing ,Shanghai and SHenzhen , a yearly income of 200K RMB(1400K Rupees) can not make a a typical CHinese family (husband,wife and one kid) become "Mid class"

However, if you live in inland CHina, a yearly income of 100K RMB(700k Rupees) is enough to make a typical CHinese family (husband,wife and one kid) live a "mid-class" life.

 

[ajtr]

india's upper class = USA's middle class.

 

[Vinod2070]

In India, the consumption levels are much lower compared to the West. We have less needs and can make do with less money.

As an example, a typical Indian home uses 1/4 to 1/6 of the energy of a typical US home. We have less electrical appliances. The lifestyle is different compared to the West.

 

[amoy]

if you live in inland CHina, a yearly income of 10K RMB(70k Rupees) is enough to make a typical CHinese family (husband,wife and one kid) live a "mid-class" life.

I guess u miss a 0 i.e. it shall read 100K RMB, and similarly 200K for Beijing etc. Otherwise 1 car+2 homes totally out of the question.

One thing is worth noting - the soaring property/asset price, in Beijing Shanghai or SZ now probably at 20-30k/sqm downtown, which likely 'enslave' lots of would-be middle class by engulfing a huge portion of their wealth. And consequently many of them actually count on parents' saving to sustain their life quality.

Besides by reading hit&run's post I feel Indian Mid Class possibly enjoy a far cozier life than Chinese counterparts. China's so-called Mid Class (even by BadG's standard of income++ threshold) seems exposed to much more stress and pressure. Relatively speaking Chinese folks are more 'materialism' putting more emphasis on material comfort. And my perception is that China is kind of an oval-shaped society with both high-end and low-end of the populace much smaller in size nurtured in 'socialist' traditions.

 

[badguy2000]

it is how a typical "Mid Class" CHinese famliy live a life:

1. live in small communities called " Xiaoqu".In a typical "Xiaoqu" ,there are usually shops ,parks , playing grounds and even banks.
it is a typical Chinese "Xiaoqu",where most CHinese "mid Class" live.





2.the house of a typical CHinese "mid class"

 

[badguy2000]

I guess u miss a 0 i.e. it shall read 100K RMB, and similarly 200K for Beijing etc. Otherwise 1 car+2 homes totally out of the question.

One thing is worth noting - the soaring property/asset price, in Beijing Shanghai or SZ now probably at 20-30k/sqm downtown, which likely 'enslave' lots of would-be middle class by engulfing a huge portion of their wealth. And consequently many of them actually count on parents' saving to sustain their life quality.

Besides by reading hit&run's post I feel Indian Mid Class possibly enjoy a far cozier life than Chinese counterparts. China's so-called Mid Class (even by BadG's standard of income++ threshold) seems exposed to much more stress and pressure. Relatively speaking Chinese folks are more 'materialism' putting more emphasis on material comfort. And my perception is that China is kind of an oval-shaped society with both high-end and low-end of the populace much smaller in size nurtured in 'socialist' traditions.

well,

I think India rich people live a cozier life than CHinese rich people while India's poor people live a harder life than CHinese poor people.

Besides, Chinese society is more open to lower class than India society.
Poor CHinese have more chance to rise to higher class than poor Indians.

As a whole, Chinese society is more "industrialized" than Indian society. It means that CHinese society has faster life rhythems and is more "punctual" than Indian society. It also means that People have more industry disciplines to abide by.

So, oridnary Chinese should be exposed to much more stress and pressues than ordinary Indians.

 

[Vinod2070]

well,

I think India rich people live a cozier life than CHinese rich people while India's poor people live a harder life than CHinese poor people.

Besides, Chinese society is more open to lower class than India society.
Poor CHinese have more chance to rise to higher class than poor Indians.

As a whole, Chinese society is more "industrialized" than Indian society. It means that CHinese society has faster life rhythems and is more "punctual" than Indian society. It also means that People have more industry disciplines to abide by.

So, oridnary Chinese should be exposed to much more stress and pressues than ordinary Indians.

These are broad generalizations. Not true at all.

Chinese poor "have more chance" only because China has been growing faster than India in the last few decades. Not because Indian poor are prevented from rising.

In fact, I personally know so many successful people from very humble background. Millions of people are getting opportunities as the economy is growing.

Just to give few examples, Narayan Murthy (the billionaire ex chief of Infosys could not afford his education in IIT), the head of the chandrayan moon mission was from a poor village family and so on. There are countless such examples.

The industrialization of China is a very recent phenomenon. Don't let it go to your head too much.

 

[badguy2000]

These are broad generalizations. Not true at all.

Chinese poor "have more chance" only because China has been growing faster than India in the last few decades. Not because Indian poor are prevented from rising.

In fact, I personally know so many successful people from very humble background. Millions of people are getting opportunities as the economy is growing.

Just to give few examples, Narayan Murthy (the billionaire ex chief of Infosys could not afford his education in IIT), the head of the chandrayan moon mission was from a poor village family and so on. There are countless such examples.

The industrialization of China is a very recent phenomenon. Don't let it go to your head too much.

two examples for you:

1. Chinese boss and his indian driver.

One CHinese businessman went to India and hired one Indian driver . when meeting his Indian clients, the chinese boss invited his indian driver to have dinner with him and his Indian clients together,as he did in China. In China,
However, the CHinese businessman surprisedly found that his Indian clients got very angry while his Indian driver got so moved that he even could not hold back his tear out of eyes. He asked them why so.
Later, his indian driver explaine to the Chinese businessman that it was his first time to have dinner with his hirer ,just because in India "lower class" such as dirvers are usually not allowed to have dinner with "upper classes".

His Indian clients got angry ,because they felt it a offence that Chinese businessman invite a "lower class" to have dinner with them.

one CHinese toilet cleaner and the wife of one Indian diplomat
http://www.cityweekend.com.cn/beijing/events/34499/
Pallavi Aiyar is an award winning Indian journalist who has reported from China for over 6 years .Considered as one of the foremost commentators on the Sino-Indian relationship. She is the wife of India diplomat in CHina.

Aiyar met one CHinese toilet cleaner when his toilet room got damaged. She got "shocked" when the Chinese toilet cleaner " shook my hand with confidence" and didn't feel himself inferior at all ,just as Indian lower class like "bhangi"

Aiyar said that in india people would rush off to take a bath if they got touched by one "bhangi"

it is still one Aiyar's experence.
Pallavi Aiyar made friends with a young CHinese girl when she was in Beijing. The girl was a white collar and has a decent job. if in india, the Chinese girl usually would be looked on as a "upper mid class" at least. However ,one day, the Chinese girl told Aiyar that her mom was looking for a housekeeping job,because her mum was retired and felt too "unoccupied".
Aiyar said that She got "shocked" again that it is impossible in India that a "uppper class lady " is ready to find a "low class" job such as housekeeping.

Generally Speaking, most Chinese believe that nothing is destined and believe that life can be changed during this life,as long as they work hard enough. Just as a famous old CHinese saying shows, "Nobody is destined to be more noble than others"


However, most Indian believe in "Samsara" and accept that their life might be "destined". India's lower class such as dirvers and "bhangi" already take it granted that they are "inferior to " upper classes.

 

[Vinod2070]

What you mention is a different issue. People here may be more conscious of "social status" and may consider some occupations as lower in social strata.

Nothing to do with your earlier comment:

Poor CHinese have more chance to rise to higher class than poor Indians.

The richest Indians now are the Ambanis. Dhiru Bhai Ambani used to work as a petrol pump attendant.

Anyway let's not digress into social issues on this thread.

 

[Rage]

I believe we have gone through this before. The 'measures' of evaluating middle-class size are widely divergent among economists, but to give you a (now somewhat dated) definition, As of 2005, the median household income in India was about R.68,800 per year*, which at an exchange rate of 46.13 to the dollar (today's ex. rate, but about which it has remained relatively consistent since November 2009), equals $1,495 per year. Our economists define the middle class as earning between 75% and 125% of that median income. Typically, an Indian middle class family owns (at least) one four-wheeled vehicle, with a typical additional two-wheeler for the college-going daughter or son, employs a servant, fully owns an (annutized) apartment, owns considerable gold, is high consumption and has a declining savings rate of approx. 28% of annual income.

The 'average' Indian middle class lives in buildings like these:

The 'mid-upper' middle class lives in buildings like this:

That is the Nerul 'burb of Navi Mumbai, btw.

And the 'lower middle class' lives in buildings (chawls) like these:

This is your typical 'average' middle class kitchen:

And your 'upper' middle class kitchen:

(*Average annual per-capita incomes have more than doubled in the last 7 years.)

 

[Vinod2070]

enerally Speaking, most Chinese believe that nothing is destined and believe that life can be changed during this life,as long as they work hard enough. Just as a famous old CHinese saying shows, "Nobody is destined to be more noble than others"

However, most Indian believe in "Samsara" and accept that their life might be "destined". India's lower class such as dirvers and "bhangi" already take it granted that they are "inferior to " upper classes.

Chinese society was highly hierarchical in ancient times. Let's not get into that in this thread.

Just stick to the "mid class" and what it means in India and China.

 

[BloodRed]

This thread is funny, maoist state propaganda being presented as unquestionable truth, rich and low class workers living in harmony clap there is no class divide in china iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii ramblings of marxist author pallavi iyer on indian society presented as the truth clap India has PM who was low class professor who led and still leads a frugal lifestyle while my chinese friend once told me Hu Jintao was from one of those aristocratic family which ruled china, and yet we are told china doesnt have a class problem. clap

 

[amoy]

haha, I especially like that pic. of a kind mother in the kitchen who reminds me of Chinese mom. in numbers i.e.

the median household income in India is about R.68,800 per year, which at an exchange rate of 46.13 to the dollar (today's ex. rate, but about which it has remained relatively consistent since November 2009), equals $1,495 per year.

$1.495/year isn't much per household. but obviously if converted by PPP exchange rate that $$ is hopefully far bigger (I don't know that rate yet). Tell me what's the %%　of Mid Class in Ind society.

Other observations according to pics only
- Indians seem to like to decorate their houses colorful. a bit messy at the first glimpse (the ground and houses squeezed together) - no offensive
- Ordinary (average or lower) Chinese 'mid class' mostly live in apartments instead of owning a 'house'. In this regard the Upper/Avg. indian homes look far bigger (assume Ind. family size is bigger averagely)
- your coverage of Mid Class is far broader (Upper, Avg., Lower). Probably only Upper/Avg. corresponds to Chinese concept of Mid Class
- in the kitchen much less elec. appliances than Chinese