What If Multi-cal Rifle Tender Fails?

[abingdonboy]

There's too much opaqueness to Indian arms procurers- no one knows for sure just what the hell is going on on the F-INSAS, FICV, DRDO MULTI-Cal rifle, foreign multi-cal rifle fronts to name but a few.


Also I feel the media does far more harm than good in these cases- they smell blood and go after any foreign weapon purchase they feel like regardless of a lack of evidence being present. They have screwed India over on the LUH and MMRCA deals and have looked to do so on many others. Just the suggestion of them of scam or corruption is enough for the great "Saint" to stall said procurements indefinitely and to make it worse the procurements are neither cancelled nor moved foreward- India gets the worst of both worlds- no procurement but no measures to initiate a re-tendering just an omnipresent "question mark" and indecision.


And why @Kunal Biswas sir, are you preempting such a cancellation/scam? From the latest info I have to hand (as good as 3 weeks ago) from an industry insider- this deal is going ahead smoothly right now and ,in fact ,the IA is apparently very anxious to get the said rifle in service by mid-2014-with frontline/RR troops-when the US draw down in Afghanistan is pretty much completed.



I think though, that in the long term India really needs to legalise this industry practice of having lobbyists/arms agents present in-country. It is only because of Indian laws these guys are in the wrong but in most of the developed world these guys are allowed to operate freely and above board. By having this stupid policy of making it illegal for these guys to exist merely drives these guys underground and to employ underhand means. Just legalise it, have everyone operate on a level field with some bloody transparency!!

 

[pmaitra]

And why @Kunal Biswas sir, are you preempting such a cancellation/scam? From the latest info I have to hand (as good as 3 weeks ago) from an industry insider- this deal is going ahead smoothly right now and ,in fact ,the IA is apparently very anxious to get the said rifle in service by mid-2014-with frontline/RR troops-when the US draw down in Afghanistan is pretty much completed.

The IA should have been anxious in 2000, right after the Kargil War, and by 2001, they should have provided a GSQR to OFB for a rifle that we would need today. IA has this habit of napping, for a long time and then suddenly waking up and going into a panicky frenzy about arms imports, and for some reason, IA requirements tend to closely match what is available off the shelf from foreign vendors.

The fact that 70 years after independence we are thinking of importing a basic thing like rifles should be enough for us to hang our heads in shame.

 

[DivineHeretic]

The IA should have been anxious in 2000, right after the Kargil War, and by 2001, they should have provided a GSQR to OFB for a rifle that we would need today. IA has this habit of napping, for a long time and then suddenly waking up and going into a panicky frenzy about arms imports, and for some reason, IA requirements tend to closely match what is available off the shelf from foreign vendors.

The fact that 70 years after independence we are thinking of importing a basic thing like rifles should be enough for us to hang our heads in shame.

To be fair to the IA, if not for political considerations, the US would have switched over to the HK-416 long time ago.As long as you can manufacture the rifle and ammunition in your country, who designed and developed the gun is of relatively low importance.

It is not a high technology, sensitive equipment the knowledge of which is to be guarded. The optics and electronics(if any) are a different matter and should be manufactured at home, whatever the cost.

And its not really the DRDO the Army is pissed off at. The OFB with their very poor manufacturing standards have managed to create problems in the gun which should never have existed. The IA does not dislike the current INSAS, it hates the quality of manufacturing by OFB. (Well, atleast it did)

 

[pmaitra]

To be fair to the IA, if not for political considerations, the US would have switched over to the HK-416 long time ago.As long as you can manufacture the rifle and ammunition in your country, who designed and developed the gun is of relatively low importance.

Even if we can produce it in India, it will be license produced, and we will still have to pay a license fee. So, who designed and developed the gun is indeed very important.

It is not a high technology, sensitive equipment the knowledge of which is to be guarded. The optics and electronics(if any) are a different matter and should be manufactured at home, whatever the cost.

India should invest in precision engineering tools, but continue to produce the INSAS while the Army should work on a new GSQR and hand it over to OFB so that they can come up with a prototype 3 years hence. Regarding multi-calibre, I am totally against introducing yet another calibre between 7.62 mm and 5.56 mm, leave alone a new imported gun for a new calibre.

And its not really the DRDO the Army is pissed off at. The OFB with their very poor manufacturing standards have managed to create problems in the gun which should never have existed. The IA does not dislike the current INSAS, it hates the quality of manufacturing by OFB. (Well, atleast it did)

True. There was a quality problem, and most of it has been fixed.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Why is that knee jerking question ? have you care to read the article provided in the first page on first place..

All Industry claim the same including SIG & Berreta and both claims also to be the winners..

If you have little Idea how this corrupt system works inside and outside forces, you would not give such a logic ..

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This thread is for dicussing about ' What If Multi-Cal Rifle Tender Falls? ' lets focus on that..

If you have some point about the topic, do share..

Also I feel the media does far more harm than good in these cases- they smell blood and go after any foreign weapon purchase they feel like regardless of a lack of evidence being present. They have screwed India over on the LUH and MMRCA deals and have looked to do so on many others.

And why @Kunal Biswas sir, are you preempting such a cancellation/scam? From the latest info I have to hand (as good as 3 weeks ago) from an industry insider- this deal is going ahead smoothly right now and

I think though, that in the long term India really needs to legalise this industry practice of having lobbyists/arms agents present in-country.

 

[Waffen SS]

I cant understand why do we need Foreign rifles??

If we can make these

why we dont use them??

We are already a Zoo of arms, for Ak 47s- From Original Russian variant of it to it's copy of Former East Germany's version known as MPi-KM

In any future all out long war I fear how Indian army will supply lots of different spare parts for different weapons?

 

[DivineHeretic]

I cant understand why do we need Foreign rifles??

If we can make these

why we dont use them??

We are already a Zoo of arms, for Ak 47s- From Original Russian variant of it to it's copy of Former East Germany's version known as MPi-KM

In any future all out long war I fear how Indian army will supply lots of different spare parts for different weapons?

Its all about perception, mate.

The IA had several bad experiences with the initial batches of INSAS, problems which were rectified in later batches.

The current problems, if any, are faced by the units still holding the old batches of INSAS. But the problem is that INSAS and DRDO made a bad impression amongst the mid-level ranks in the IA then (Kargil, for example). These very officers now occupy the higher ranks, and since they dont use these weapons regularly now, many still retain the bias against the INSAS, and indeed indegenious rifles.

Add to this mix the middleman and corrupt bureaucratsm and you have a pretty good idea why the foreign guns are preferred

But ontopic, if the IA is willing to shell out Rs. 3-4 lac per Assault rifle, the why not completely redesign the INSAS assault rifle? At that price range, you should be able to strip all plastic/steel furniture and swap them with Composites, even Carbon fibre. The tradiational iron sights can be replaced completely with better ones.

Change the stock to a lighter modern one as in G-36, attach a indegenious red-dot sight as standard and reduce the number of individual parts amd ypu have a new rifle.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

And what about DRDO made multi-caliber rifle ?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

ARDE designs multiple-calibre rifle, begins prototyping | Sakal Times

And what about DRDO made multi-caliber rifle ?

 

[TrueSpirit]

Even if we can produce it in India, it will be license produced, and we will still have to pay a license fee. So, who designed and developed the gun is indeed very important.
India should invest in precision engineering tools, but continue to produce the INSAS while the Army should work on a new GSQR and hand it over to OFB so that they can come up with a prototype 3 years hence

The points raised above are extremely vital, but vested interests ensure that they are not paid heed to. Lets see if there is any resolute individual left to stand against entrenched import lobbies & survive all the way to the top. Highly onerous, though.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

What about the MSMC?

Are the tests over?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not a Rifle but its under evaluation..

What about the MSMC?

Are the tests over?

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

I hv already asked this but again , why this tender if we hv our one in development ? don't u think we should wait for a DRDO product .

ARDE designs multiple-calibre rifle, begins prototyping | Sakal Times

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I would add another question, Why didn't media even mention DRDO in the competition.. ?

This whole process of buying new rifles is a scam ( evidence posted on first page ) ..

I hv already asked this but again , why this tender if we hv our one in development ? don't u think we should wait for a DRDO product .

 

[ladder]

The tender and subsequent trials exposed our army officers into comparative trials of around 5 multi-cal weapons.
so, they gained insight into the technical parameters and advantage and disadvantage of multi-cal rifles and modular construction.

So, even if this tender fails, the GSQR which they will issue to DRDO will be updated and stringent.
Also, as we know the DRDO multi-cal rifle is under prototyping phase, so the feedback during trial will also be stringent and practical.And not lax or something impossible to achieve.

In all I hope the multical rifle reaching our soldiers be best that money can buy.

As for next iteration for development for INSAS , the customer base of CAPF's and state police is more than a million and that itself mandates the next variant to be produced for providing an updated solution to them.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

i wonder how hard can it be to make a assault rifle when we are sending rockets to Mars

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

lions of punjab ,Ahmadabad, India ????

yes what ?

 

[Blackwater]

yes what ?

i mean pls introduce ur self in members section

 

[ALBY]

I would add another question, Why didn't media even mention DRDO in the competition.. ?

This whole process of buying new rifles is a scam ( evidence posted on first page ) ..

An official from DRDO whom i had met in a defence expo had said that drdo is also developing multi cals based on INSAS which has integrated quad rails and better ergonomics.Any way he denied to comment about the present statee of development.

 

[Abhijeet Dey]

i wonder how hard can it be to make a assault rifle when we are sending rockets to Mars

Maybe ISRO Scientists are not like corrupt officials of DRDO.