US Denies Transfer of Critical Technology and F-16 Fighter Production in India

[square]

single engine under MII was always a non starter.......due to its comparitive high cost close to twin engine fighters and due to tejas....

now came to twin engine MII....

we might get around 100 or even more rafale make by reliance defence , but that number still not fill the required gap , also rafale is expensive to buy & operate.....

we need a cheaper and quick twin engine solution ......
solution could be , pay russian the royality for the mig29/35 airframe and put all required stuff here including kaveri , hal is already master mig29 in resent upgrade....

Spoiler: F-16 deal crashed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tejas make a comeback!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Death to the single-engine fighter tender!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OMFG am so hapee rite now. I cant process this.


The only thing that can happen now:-

1. More Tejas Mk-1A and maybe Mk-2
2. Kaveri completes with French help
3. More Rafael
4. FGFA early 2020s
5. AMCA late 2020s
6. IAF fleet geared up for total war early 2030s
7. Pakis sh**ing
8. Chinis crying

Now, lets wait for the other contender to present its bid in detail....

 

[Adioz]

single engine under MII was always a non starter.......due to its comparitive high cost close to twin engine fighters and due to tejas....

now came to twin engine MII....

we might get around 100 or even more rafale make by reliance defence , but that number still not fill the required gap , also rafale is expensive to buy & operate.....

we need a cheaper and quick twin engine solution ......
solution could be , pay russian the royality for the mig29/35 airframe and put all required stuff here including kaveri , hal is already master mig29 in resent upgrade....

Another solution that would take the same amount of time would be to make a two-engine Tejas. Yes, it will take a few years (3 till first flight IMHO, 6 till production), but negotiating with the Russians for MiG 29 would also take at least 3 years, and then another three to test Indian components on it. The resulting experience to Indian Industry will be enormous. In the mean time, IAF will have to soldier on with a diminishing fleet (easier said than done), but that might be forced to spend the time to improve infrastructure and serviceability rates in order to improve combat efficiency and survivability. For this option to be successful, GoI will have to drag the IAF along its decision, or make a deal of supplying more Rafael than the current number in exchange for IAF supporting a twin-engine Tejas-based 4th gen aircraft. This will also test the Government-private industry partnership prior to AMCA, and we'll get to see just how many lessons we learnt from the LCA saga. All these lessons learnt will prove to be of immense value to the AMCA program. We might even get a twin-engine Naval aircraft out of this program. Lastly, parts would be largely the same in both Tejas and the new twin-engine aircraft.
If the current government cannot make this happen, no government can.

 

[square]

Another solution that would take the same amount of time would be to make a two-engine Tejas. Yes, it will take a few years (3 till first flight IMHO, 6 till production), but negotiating with the Russians for MiG 29 would also take at least 3 years, and then another three to test Indian components on it. The resulting experience to Indian Industry will be enormous. In the mean time, IAF will have to soldier on with a diminishing fleet (easier said than done), but that might be forced to spend the time to improve infrastructure and serviceability rates in order to improve combat efficiency and survivability. For this option to be successful, GoI will have to drag the IAF along its decision, or make a deal of supplying more Rafael than the current number in exchange for IAF supporting a twin-engine Tejas-based 4th gen aircraft. This will also test the Government-private industry partnership prior to AMCA, and we'll get to see just how many lessons we learnt from the LCA saga. All these lessons learnt will prove to be of immense value to the AMCA program. We might even get a twin-engine Naval aircraft out of this program. Lastly, parts would be largely the same in both Tejas and the new twin-engine aircraft.
If the current government cannot make this happen, no government can.

where we going to put the second engine on tejas ?
i too read some blogs on twin engine tejas , but see , these blogers are no better then common posters on defence forums !!!

 

[IndianHawk]

Another solution that would take the same amount of time would be to make a two-engine Tejas. Yes, it will take a few years (3 till first flight IMHO, 6 till production), but negotiating with the Russians for MiG 29 would also take at least 3 years, and then another three to test Indian components on it. The resulting experience to Indian Industry will be enormous. In the mean time, IAF will have to soldier on with a diminishing fleet (easier said than done), but that might be forced to spend the time to improve infrastructure and serviceability rates in order to improve combat efficiency and survivability. For this option to be successful, GoI will have to drag the IAF along its decision, or make a deal of supplying more Rafael than the current number in exchange for IAF supporting a twin-engine Tejas-based 4th gen aircraft. This will also test the Government-private industry partnership prior to AMCA, and we'll get to see just how many lessons we learnt from the LCA saga. All these lessons learnt will prove to be of immense value to the AMCA program. We might even get a twin-engine Naval aircraft out of this program. Lastly, parts would be largely the same in both Tejas and the new twin-engine aircraft.
If the current government cannot make this happen, no government can.

We need single engine aircrafts to make the bulk of our air Force as we can't afford operating costs. Otherwise the simplest solution will be to produce more su30 mki with more indegenious components.

There is a critical flaw in our thinking. When we designed LCA back in 1983 , we planned for very low operating costs given the poor state of the economy that is why we designed a small Delta wing plane and now just because our economy is growing suddenly our expectations are over the roof and we want rafale and more twin Engine planes.

This is not prudent by any measure.
Govt needs to streamline things from here on and reduce the no. Of platforms as well.

Here is my argument
FGFA coming from 2025
Limit rafale to 36 for nuclear role.
Get more su30mki to fill numbers. Instead of rafale .
Utilization of existing Jaguar and mig 29 and mirage by2030 , when Amca enters production till then by no more .

Increase the number of LCA mk1A.
Keep working on mk2 order hundreds of mk2 from 2025-2030.

No more stop gap purchase. Fill the gap with indegenious su30 production + LCA.

Focus only on FGFA , LCA mk1A, mk2 and Amca .
Bite the bullet now or regret forever.

 

[IndianHawk]

where we going to put the second engine on tejas ?
i too read some blogs on twin engine tejas , but see , these blogers are no better then common posters on defence forums !!!

No need for twin engine LCA. AMCA will be the twin engine wonder . Right now we already have twin engine beast su30 production costs of which are one of the lowest in the world already.

 

[cannonfodder]

IAF generals wants Gripen. Once it gets Gripen; slowly but surely lobbyist will make sure that Tejas is killed or rendered mere R&D project like Arjun tanks(kill your competition). This will not happen overnight but slowly propaganda will be run to highlight even minuscule deficiencies in Tejas. Better thing will be give IAF what it does not want i.e some F16 off the shelf & see if they remain committed to LCA/Tejas. Gripen is bigger competition in SE segment than older F16's in longer run.

Don't want to wait another 15-20 years to see indigenous AC with high numbers. We will be seeing same challenges with AMCA as well with proven fifth generation fighters flying post 2030. So better do the hardwork now rather than later.

 

[Aghore_King]

IAF generals wants Gripen. Once it gets Gripen; slowly but surely lobbyist will make sure that Tejas is killed or rendered mere R&D project like Arjun tanks(kill your competition). This will not happen overnight but slowly propaganda will be run to highlight even minuscule deficiencies in Tejas. Better thing will be give IAF what it does not want i.e some F16 off the shelf & see if they remain committed to LCA/Tejas. Gripen is bigger competition in SE segment than older F16's in longer run.

Don't want to wait another 15-20 years to see indigenous AC with high numbers. We will be seeing same challenges with AMCA as well with proven fifth generation fighters flying post 2030. So better do the hardwork now rather than later.

That's right , gripen is bigger threat to Tejas than F 16...

 

[Aghore_King]

Twin engine Tejas concept..............

Another solution that would take the same amount of time would be to make a two-engine Tejas. Yes, it will take a few years (3 till first flight IMHO, 6 till production), but negotiating with the Russians for MiG 29 would also take at least 3 years, and then another three to test Indian components on it. The resulting experience to Indian Industry will be enormous. In the mean time, IAF will have to soldier on with a diminishing fleet (easier said than done), but that might be forced to spend the time to improve infrastructure and serviceability rates in order to improve combat efficiency and survivability. For this option to be successful, GoI will have to drag the IAF along its decision, or make a deal of supplying more Rafael than the current number in exchange for IAF supporting a twin-engine Tejas-based 4th gen aircraft. This will also test the Government-private industry partnership prior to AMCA, and we'll get to see just how many lessons we learnt from the LCA saga. All these lessons learnt will prove to be of immense value to the AMCA program. We might even get a twin-engine Naval aircraft out of this program. Lastly, parts would be largely the same in both Tejas and the new twin-engine aircraft.
If the current government cannot make this happen, no government can.

 

[Bornubus]

Nobody gives such critical technology as these are the the collective intellectual wealth of Nations. US won't give it and neither did Russians even the Gun barrels tech.

China bailed out Russia by giving lifeline to it's economy from $400 natural Gas deal but still Russia didn't allowed China to reverse engineer or Technology transfer of SU 35 and S 400 deal.


And here you expect Uncle Sam to give ToT on F 16 instead of begging ToT invest this money in indigenous R&D and encourage competition in domestic defense sector.


BC ye to wohi baat Hui. Bhai paise lelo Jahaj dedo, technology bhi dedo, hum tumhare Jahaj banyenge or apne logon KO job denge. BC uncle Sam bola technology tum lo, job bhi tum legao just for billions of dollar that is probably 1/6 of total yearly defense budget of US

 

[square]

Nobody gives such critical technology as these are the the collective intellectual wealth of Nations. US won't give it and neither did Russians even the Gun barrels tech.

China bailed out Russia by giving lifeline to it's economy from $400 natural Gas deal but still Russia didn't allowed China to reverse engineer or Technology transfer of SU 35 and S 400 deal.


And here you expect Uncle Sam to give ToT on F 16 instead of begging ToT invest this money in indigenous R&D and encourage competition in domestic defense sector.


BC ye to wohi baat Hui. Bhai paise lelo Jahaj dedo, technology bhi dedo, hum tumhare Jahaj banyenge or apne logon KO job denge. BC uncle Sam bola technology tum lo, job bhi tum legao just for billions of dollar that is probably 1/6 of total yearly defense budget of US

radar , ew and other tech are not under LM , they buy these from others to assemble it on their f16 airframe... .....
there is no way LM can make a commitmemt on it , nor US govt can force these private companies , all US administration can do is to issue a no objection in case these companies agree for tot....

 

[captscooby81]

You are right no one gives their Golden Egg laying hen which is the critical technologies ..

Now coming to develop our own technology we have lots of shortfalls from the Very basic .

For any technological advancement the basic start is the education and we have a very good basic education system but very pathetic higher education system ..Our system is very simple write what as its given in the book you will get your marks if you give your own creative solutions which is not in the book the get ready to kicked out ..

USA has today the worlds highest number of advanced technologies in weapons because they had invested so much in their education . MIT was nothing but funded heavily by the US govt to get critical research in area s which helped them build advanced weapons . Same is what today china is doing they have heavily invested in their education system universities which are doing so much research and which is showing in the progress they are making in every industry ..Off course they still lag in so many domains but nevertheless they had made some progress

Now coming to India ..Where are our universities when it comes to their contribution in research IITs dud IISc is also dud we are still 30-40 years behind when it comes to investment in education to come out with great progress ..Simply saying private companies to start investing in R&D is going to useless unless we have the kind of resources to provide them to conduct those R&D which is nothing much brain power which will only come if we heavily invest in research oriented education system compared to this theory oriented one..

Nobody gives such critical technology as these are the the collective intellectual wealth of Nations. US won't give it and neither did Russians even the Gun barrels tech.

China bailed out Russia by giving lifeline to it's economy from $400 natural Gas deal but still Russia didn't allowed China to reverse engineer or Technology transfer of SU 35 and S 400 deal.


And here you expect Uncle Sam to give ToT on F 16 instead of begging ToT invest this money in indigenous R&D and encourage competition in domestic defense sector.


BC ye to wohi baat Hui. Bhai paise lelo Jahaj dedo, technology bhi dedo, hum tumhare Jahaj banyenge or apne logon KO job denge. BC uncle Sam bola technology tum lo, job bhi tum legao just for billions of dollar that is probably 1/6 of total yearly defense budget of US

 

[square]

Our system is very simple write what as its given in the book you will get your marks if you give your own creative solutions which is not in the book the get ready to kicked out ..

very correct !!

and our grace mark system ( moderation policy ) act as a blocker to force chidrens to work a extra hour....
every year students getting 95+ is increasing , 95+ means they has master the subject....but are they realy ?
because , all these 95+ just got vanish after their 12th class....


in IIT too , we used to have some quality when the exams were based on subjective answering.....
presently with objective answering system , its unlikely that students can solve complex time consuming problems , when they face them later in their carrier.....
infosys cheif , narayan murti , had already made a cry over it......
present govt started a act, but then , court put his rulings......

 

[kunal1123]

Twin engine Tejas concept..............

View attachment 18463

Another solution that would take the same amount of time would be to make a two-engine Tejas. Yes, it will take a few years (3 till first flight IMHO, 6 till production), but negotiating with the Russians for MiG 29 would also take at least 3 years, and then another three to test Indian components on it. The resulting experience to Indian Industry will be enormous. In the mean time, IAF will have to soldier on with a diminishing fleet (easier said than done), but that might be forced to spend the time to improve infrastructure and serviceability rates in order to improve combat efficiency and survivability. For this option to be successful, GoI will have to drag the IAF along its decision, or make a deal of supplying more Rafael than the current number in exchange for IAF supporting a twin-engine Tejas-based 4th gen aircraft. This will also test the Government-private industry partnership prior to AMCA, and we'll get to see just how many lessons we learnt from the LCA saga. All these lessons learnt will prove to be of immense value to the AMCA program. We might even get a twin-engine Naval aircraft out of this program. Lastly, parts would be largely the same in both Tejas and the new twin-engine aircraft.
If the current government cannot make this happen, no government can.

No need for twin engine LCA. AMCA will be the twin engine wonder . Right now we already have twin engine beast su30 production costs of which are one of the lowest in the world already.

Again with 2 twin engine tejas concept........................
what everybody who backing this think that it will take 3 year and get new modified medium
4.5 gen aircraft on same stage as current tejas . well it not a simple modification in tejas . adding a new engine in tejas will change it every aspect. basically will be new air-frame and will need new fbw system,
take the smallest time frame 1 year for design ,1 year to build td (since entirely new air-frame so start with start) 2 year for 4 prototype then as it is new design than min. 2 year to get ioc that if we take no major setback. and start now.
so after six year we will be still stuck on 4-4.5+ gen development.

And why every one keep forgetting about MCA saga
AMCA was start as MCA(twin engine concept of LCA) around 2006-2008 when we got the need for development of medium range combat aircraft it start as 2 engine LCA than --- > medium combact aircraft ----> MMRCA---->then finally AMCA (and that to evolve a quite a bit ) now after so much trouble we wanna go back to the starting point and all this development done taking air-force requirement . as once IAF said that they are not going to induct any new aircraft without super-cruise (i remember distinctively that it is in new's for good time ) that were the concept for AMCA come.

here from wiki(easy source)....

" The AMCA program evolved out of the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) programme, was initiated to fulfil several requirements for a common fighter to replace different types of existing fighters aircraft which included Dassault Mirage 2000, Sepecat Jaguars, Mikoyan MiG-23 and Mikoyan MiG-27. The development contract for the aircraft programme was signed on 8 March 2008. The MCA program was created to replace various aircraft while keeping development, production, and operating costs down. In October 2008, the Indian Air Force asked the ADA to prepare a detailed project report on the development of an MCA incorporating stealth features.[14] In the same month the aircraft's name was changed to Next Generation Fighter Aircraft (NGFA) by the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy, but ADA and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) still used the MCA designation for the aircraft

In March 2010, the aircraft was renamed as Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA). In April 2010, the Indian Air Force Chief of Air Staff issued the Air Staff requirements (ASR) for the AMCA, which placed the aircraft in the 25-ton category.[1][20][21][22] "

 

[Screambowl]

This is what I wonder, why do they apply '' sabka sath sabka vikas'' in international business. This is BS!

I would say, increase the building cost by a bit of f-16s in India if no ToT, get the money and put it in research for turbine technology.

Otherwise, Indian resources, Indian man power and no ToT and no profit is a very bad business.

And here you expect Uncle Sam to give ToT on F 16 instead of begging ToT invest this money in indigenous R&D and encourage competition in domestic defense sector.

 

[Screambowl]

its unlikely that students can solve complex time consuming

Increase the standard of mathematics and this will solve the problem. Almost every subject in developed countries which are building defence products have very high standard of mathematics.
Because you need very brilliant mathematicians to develop complex equations be it optimisation of a circuit or engine.
And for that you need to pay the mathematicians. And there the budget goes below required.

 

[Bornubus]

You are right no one gives their Golden Egg laying hen which is the critical technologies ..

Now coming to develop our own technology we have lots of shortfalls from the Very basic .

For any technological advancement the basic start is the education and we have a very good basic education system but very pathetic higher education system ..Our system is very simple write what as its given in the book you will get your marks if you give your own creative solutions which is not in the book the get ready to kicked out ..

USA has today the worlds highest number of advanced technologies in weapons because they had invested so much in their education . MIT was nothing but funded heavily by the US govt to get critical research in area s which helped them build advanced weapons . Same is what today china is doing they have heavily invested in their education system universities which are doing so much research and which is showing in the progress they are making in every industry ..Off course they still lag in so many domains but nevertheless they had made some progress

Now coming to India ..Where are our universities when it comes to their contribution in research IITs dud IISc is also dud we are still 30-40 years behind when it comes to investment in education to come out with great progress ..Simply saying private companies to start investing in R&D is going to useless unless we have the kind of resources to provide them to conduct those R&D which is nothing much brain power which will only come if we heavily invest in research oriented education system compared to this theory oriented one..

Add strict user trails of Indian military which has no common in the world. Even the already battle proven, tested and inducted weastern weapons in NATO service has to pass Indian trail all over again, Arjun Mk 2 is the victim of this.


But i don't blame the army since as a user they have to use in most diverse and extreme climatic conditions from Barmer to Amar Post

 

[captscooby81]

Its not only to do with maths every aspect of the education system needs reform from physics chemistry ...We are still not able to make titanium barrel for guns and we have so many great institutes .. All our IITs was formed with an European block in mind type institutes we need something more like the americans ... Bloody every god damn invention today in the world comes from their universities the person may not be american but the university is which gives them advantage in patenting critical technologies

Increase the standard of mathematics and this will solve the problem. Almost every subject in developed countries which are building defence products have very high standard of mathematics.
Because you need very brilliant mathematicians to develop complex equations be it optimisation of a circuit or engine.
And for that you need to pay the mathematicians. And there the budget goes below required.

Well we cannot blame any one division its collective failure of the political bureaucratic academic and armed forces . There are only three countries in this entire world which are as diverse as ours geographically ..Hot deserts High snow mountains and deep forest ..We need something which needs to work in all these three conditions .

Yes as you said the army has to cut down the user trail time frame it cannot simply start doing basic test which are already proven by the weapon some where ..

Add strict user trails of Indian military which has no common in the world. Even the already battle proven, tested and inducted weastern weapons in NATO service has to pass Indian trail all over again, Arjun Mk 2 is the victim of this.


But i don't blame the army since as a user they have to use in most diverse and extreme climatic conditions from Barmer to Amar Post

 

[TPFscopes]

rafale is expensive to buy & operate.....

we need a cheaper and quick twin engine solution ......

I may believe that RAFALE is an expensive jet to buy due to high price tag but who said its expensive to operate.
If we compare it with f-18 than its operation cost is less than 1/2 and for mig-29 its less than 1/3rd.

 

[square]

I may believe that RAFALE is an expensive jet to buy due to high price tag but who said its expensive to operate.
If we compare it with f-18 than its operation cost is less than 1/2 and for mig-29 its less than 1/3rd.

i am not finding presently the reply of DM in parliament during UPA2 govt , where they give details of annual operating expense of verious fighters with iaf...
all i remember is that according to the details mirage costing double to that of mki....
i was just expecting that rafale going to cost more then mirage....

i will post if i be able to get it......

 

[TPFscopes]

i not not finding presently the reply of DM in parliament during UPA2 govt , where they give details of annual operating expense of verious fighters with iaf...
all i remember is that according to the details mirage costing double to that of mki....
i was just expecting that rafale going to cost more then mirage....

i will post if i be able to get it......

He might be talking about Mirage Upgrade cost , not operating cost.
AFAIK, RAFALEs lie in the list of world's fighters which have lowest operating cost.
RAFALEs have high price tags but they are cheaper in long run.