Thousands of Hong Kong students start week-long boycott

[Srinivas_K]

Demand to become a country like India?

That is your wish, Indian constitution gives liberty and civil rights like any other democracy.

 

[Compersion]

http://webb-site.com/articles/speech141011.asp

Don't worry about the small economic impact of these protests. Think about the large economic benefits of a more dynamic economy, ending collusion between the Government and the tycoons who currently elect the Chief Executive. When 70 old tycoons visit Beijing for instructions, you just know something is wrong. It should be the Great Hall of the People, not the Great Hall of the Tycoons.

In 2012, Albert Ho Chun Yan was a candidate for Chief Executive, and in 2007 Alan Leong Kah Kit was a candidate for Chief Executive. Each time, the candidate needed nomination by one eighth of the election committee. That is a reasonable threshold. It works.

Beijing raised the nomination threshold from one eighth to 50%, making it four times harder for a candidate to get nominated. Is that gradual and orderly progress? Of course not, it is a great leap backwards.

We don't need civic nomination if we can restore the nomination threshold to 1/8 of the committee, instead of 50%. Don't insist on civic nomination, just insist on a fair nomination process. Fairness is all that we really want.

The above seems to be reasonable. Not sure if it is widely spoken. Why move from 1/8 to 1/2 threshold. Why change the previous way.

'the ultimate aim [of] the selection of the chief executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures'.

Define -
nomination
Broadly representative
Nominating comittee
Democratic procedures

Flexible language. What principles are used for interpretation and what happens if those are unconstitutional. Fairness and purpose (aim) are they valid and true.

The people protesting might also say they were part of the group that drafted the Hong kong constituion and are applying exactly what was negotiated.

The whole thing is a conflict creator and agreement that one knew was going to have such actions.

It's actually important to note that the CCP constituion on electing leaders has similar language and how leader in prC are selected. The communist party actually elects its leaders like they have defined in Hong kong. But there are important provisions and language that is in Hong Kong constituion and also the flexibility that has allowed the protestors to say what they are doing is reasonable and legitimate.

Also

The method for forming the Legislative Council shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress. The ultimate aim is the election of all the members of the Legislative Council by universal suffrage.

The legislative council (parliament) has a important role. Will there be protests on this also.

 

[tramp]

Its because of the systematic CCP indoctrination that you feel any demand for a little more democracy is a demand for secession and this is not right.

Why the CCP so scared about people deciding for themselves? Isn't it because it is scared that if people had a say they might discard CCP as a system that has outlived its utility?

Demand to become a country like India?

 

[Ray]

Demand to become a country like India?

No.

A gilded cage is more appealing, right?

 

[Ray]

Hong Kong protests: Activists defy riot police to recapture zones
Police use pepper spray, batons to charge on pro-democracy protestors

Hong Kong pro-democracy activists recaptured parts of a core protest zone early on Saturday, defying riot police who had tried to disperse them with pepper spray and baton charges.

About a thousand protesters, some wearing protective goggles and helmets, helped to build fresh barricades from wooden fencing and other materials in the gritty, densely populated Mong Kok district. Some chanted "black police" after the police struck demonstrators' umbrellas with their small metal batons.

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The area has become a flashpoint for ugly street brawls between students and mobs, including triads, or local gangsters, intent on breaking up the prolonged protests that pose one of the biggest political challenges for China since the crushing of pro-democracy demonstrations in Beijing in 1989.

Demonstrators chanting "open the road" tried late on Friday to break through multiple police lines, using umbrellas as a shield from pepper spray at a major traffic intersection.

In the melee, police used batons and scuffled violently with activists, but were eventually forced into a partial retreat, less than 24 hours after re-opening most of the area to traffic.

"Occupy Mong Kok!" a jubilant sea of several thousand people chanted afterwards. "We want real universal suffrage!"

Twenty-six people were arrested and 15 officers were injured, the government said in a statement.

"The police have no right to throw us out," said Fish Tong, a 20-year-old student in the crowd. "We are just here to take back what is supposed to belong to us."

Police raid sparked big backlash

The renewed clashes came just hours after Hong Kong's pro-Beijing leader Leung Chun-ying offered talks to student leaders next week in an attempt to defuse weeks of protests that have paralyzed parts of the city and grabbed global headlines amid scenes of violent clashes and tear gas rising between some of the world's most valuable office buildings.

The protesters are demanding free elections for their leader in 2017, but China insists on screening candidates first and Leung reiterated that the government would not compromise.

"We will stay and fight 'til the end," Joshua Wong, a bookish 18-year-old whose fiery speeches have helped drive the protests, told the seething crowds late on Friday while standing atop a subway station exit.

Before dawn on Friday, hundreds of police had staged their biggest raid yet on a pro-democracy protest camp, forcing out student-led activists who had held the traffic intersection in one of their main protest zones for more than three weeks.

The raid was a gamble for the 28,000-strong police force who have come under criticism for aggressive clearance operations with their tear gas and baton charges and for the beating of a handcuffed protester on Wednesday. What initially seemed to be a smooth clearance operation has now sparked a bigger backlash.

1,000 protesters remain

In August, Beijing offered Hong Kong people the chance to vote for their own leader in 2017, but said only two to three candidates could run after getting backing from a 1,200-person "nominating committee" stacked with Beijing loyalists.

The protesters decry this as "fake" Chinese-style democracy and say they won't leave the streets unless Beijing allows open nominations.

Besides Mong Kok, about 1,000 protesters remained camped out on Hong Kong Island in a sea of tents on an eight-lane highway beneath skyscrapers close to government headquarters.

Despite Leung's offer of talks next week, few expect any resolution without more concrete concessions from authorities.

China rules Hong Kong under a "one country, two systems" formula that gives the city wide-ranging autonomy and freedoms not enjoyed in mainland China, with universal suffrage stated as the "ultimate aim."

Earlier this week, police had used sledge-hammers and chainsaws to tear down concrete, metal and bamboo barricades to reopen a major road feeding the Central business district.
Hong Kong protests: Activists defy riot police to recapture zones - World - CBC News

The Mainland Communist Govt and its HK puppets and roaders are now up a gum tree, it appears.

Is there any solution in the offing?

 

[nimo_cn]

Its because of the systematic CCP indoctrination that you feel any demand for a little more democracy is a demand for secession and this is not right.

Why the CCP so scared about people deciding for themselves? Isn't it because it is scared that if people had a say they might discard CCP as a system that has outlived its utility?

What is democracy? What is the purpose of having democracy? is it the ultimate goal or just a path to the ultimate goal? what if there is another path leading to that goal?

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[Ashutosh Lokhande]

What is democracy? What is the purpose of having democracy? is it the ultimate goal or just a path to the ultimate goal? what if there is another path leading to that goal?

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hey stop being so greedy. let other poor chinese trolls earn some 50 cents.

 

[Srinivas_K]

What is democracy? What is the purpose of having democracy? is it the ultimate goal or just a path to the ultimate goal? what if there is another path leading to that goal?

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Most of the Chinese are worried about the economic plans, Since in their eyes democracy is chaotic.

What is that path and what is the goal ??

 

[nimo_cn]

hey stop being so greedy. let other poor chinese trolls earn some 50 cents.

the poor Chinese you are refering to are richer than most Indians.

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[nimo_cn]

Most of the Chinese are worried about the economic plans, Since in their eyes democracy is chaotic.

What is that path and what is the goal ??

the ultimate goal is to build a prosperous country where people live abundant life.

China chooses a path different from India, but that path is taking Chinese close to that goal. We call the path socialism with Chinese characteristics.

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[Srinivas_K]

the ultimate goal is to build a prosperous country where people live abundant life.

China chooses a path different from India, but that path is taking Chinese close to that goal. We call the path socialism with Chinese characteristics.

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Prosperous country also mean people having civil rights, Liberty, Transparency and accountability from the government.

It do not mean only economic development as Chinese CCP is doing.

India's path takes care of all these aspects and improves the standard of life.

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

the poor Chinese you are refering to are richer than most Indians.

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obviously, coz we dont hire indians on a payroll for trolling and try to sell our govt propaganda

 

[Srinivas_K]

the poor Chinese you are refering to are richer than most Indians.

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CCP manipulated stats !!!

 

[nimo_cn]

Prosperous country also mean people having civil rights, Liberty, Transparency and accountability from the government.

It do not mean only economic development as Chinese CCP is doing.

India's path takes care of all these aspects and improves the standard of life.

Do the civil rights you were refering to include having an abundant life?

How transparent and accountable are the Indian government? Any better than Chinese government?

Dont you think one of the main jobs of an accountable government is to improve peoples life?

under the socialism with Chinese characteristics, Chinese people do not necessarily enjoy less civil rights than Indians. On the contrary, success in economy gives Chinese people more opportunities.

Say free speech in cyberspace, I admit that censorship makes it less convenient for Chinese netizens to comment on certain sensitive subjects. However, more Chinese than Indians could enjoy the fun of voicing their opinions on Internet simply because Chinese are more financially secured to have access to Internet. to many Indians, free speech in cyberspace means nothing but a hollow promise.

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[Ashutosh Lokhande]

Do the civil rights you were refering to include having an abundant life?

How transparent and accountable are the Indian government? Any better than Chinese government?

Dont you think one of the main jobs of an accountable government is to improve peoples life?

under the socialism with Chinese characteristics, Chinese people do not necessarily enjoy less civil rights than Indians. On the contrary, success in economy gives Chinese people more opportunities.

Say free speech in cyberspace, I admit that censorship makes it less convenient for Chinese netizens to comment on certain sensitive subjects. However, more Chinese than Indians could enjoy the fun of voicing their opinions on Internet simply because Chinese are more financially secured to have access to Internet. to many Indians, free speech in cyberspace means nothing but a hollow promise.

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far from holding India back, democracy is what holds India together.

India & China are & have been very different places historically. The notion of a single national entity with a dictator at its head has a long history in China. Despite their different language groups Han Chinese share a sense of unified culture. I don't think this describes India.

If you want a comparison, look at Pakistan. Perhaps it would never have lasted as a unified state, but dictatorship doomed it to a violent split. Subsequent dictatorships in what remained Pakistan have probably fuelled divisions along religious & regional/ethnic lines. India has had its problems, but it has stayed in one piece, and at a MUCH lower cost than Pakistan paid for its breakup.

Think on it this way, what do you think the reaction of the various States with their different histories, religions, ethnicities & languages would have been to an extended period of dictatorship from New Delhi? Dictatorships are notoriously bad at managing diversity. How long do you think it would have been before individual states or groups of states would have begun agitating for greater autonomy? How long do you think it would have been before bloodshed? How many years of dictatorship would it take to pay for the costs of just one year of major civil upheaval?

I would argue that even 60 years after independence, India retians some of the fragility that it had at its birth. I doubt that it could survive a generation of dictatorship. India has corruption & inefficiency. It has problems. This is beyond doubt. So does China. I would argue, however, that the promises held out by dictatorship are largely illusory for most nations. The costs are often less obvious, but great. India gains so much more from democracy than it loses that the alternative is unthinkable.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Do the civil rights you were refering to include having an abundant life?

Liberty and Economy cannot be compared. Civil Rights are most important than economy if I had to say. Lot of Democratic countries also achieved economic growth like China eg: Asian Tigers and Japan.

How transparent and accountable are the Indian government? Any better than Chinese government?

A single part system may not give the same transparency and accountability as Multi Party Democracy. We have opposition parties who frequently expose any wrong doings of Govt. plus free media also does the same some times.

Dont you think one of the main jobs of an accountable government is to improve peoples life?

Billions of corruption in land deals and other Govt. sponsored projects can be known to people and they can reject the leaders who did that. In India also there is corruption but those guys will become unpopular and can be voted out. Not the case of China where corruption kept under carpet if they think CCP will be at loss if it is exposed.

under the socialism with Chinese characteristics, Chinese people do not necessarily enjoy less civil rights than Indians. On the contrary, success in economy gives Chinese people more opportunities.

Not true !! There are no civil rights in China. Improvement of standard of living do not transform into civil rights or liberty. People may buy more things but again they cannot do it where they want and when they want for example, those things will be decided by CCP.

Say free speech in cyberspace, I admit that censorship makes it less convenient for Chinese netizens to comment on certain sensitive subjects. However, more Chinese than Indians could enjoy the fun of voicing their opinions on Internet simply because Chinese are more financially secured to have access to Internet. to many Indians, free speech in cyberspace means nothing but a hollow promise.

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China has 600 Million and India has 250 Million and increasing.

Cyber space is tightly controlled by China.

 

[CCP]

Liberty and Economy cannot be compared. Civil Rights are most important than economy if I had to say. Lot of Democratic countries also achieved economic growth like China eg: Asian Tigers and Japan.



A single part system may not give the same transparency and accountability as Multi Party Democracy. We have opposition parties who frequently expose any wrong doings of Govt. plus free media also does the same some times.




Billions of corruption in land deals and other Govt. sponsored projects can be known to people and they can reject the leaders who did that. In India also there is corruption but those guys will become unpopular and can be voted out. Not the case of China where corruption kept under carpet if they think CCP will be at loss if it is exposed.



Not true !! There are no civil rights in China. Improvement of standard of living do not transform into civil rights or liberty. People may buy more things but again they cannot do it where they want and when they want for example, those things will be decided by CCP.



China has 600 Million and India has 250 Million and increasing.

Cyber space is tightly controlled by China.

Well, wild animals have more freedom...

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Well, wild animals have more freedom...

I would prefer to live in Jungle than let anybody rule me/control my actions . What you do is controlled by CPC . You are like an animal in zoo, living in cages.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Well, wild animals have more freedom...

But are better than wild animals kept in cages !!

 

[ghost]

Well, wild animals have more freedom...

Yes,more than pet dogs.