The 5.56mm and CQB: Is there something better?

[Kunal Biswas]

The U.S. Army recently conducted one of the most extensive studies into small arms performance in CQB (Close Quarters Battle) and published their findings. This study was conducted to answer concerns that some warriors were expressing in After Action Reports (AAR) post battle about the effectiveness of the 5.56mm NATO cartridge.

The test team not only tested M193, M995 (AP) and M855 "Green Tip", but they also tested a number of other loads to see if there were any improvements made to the combat effectiveness of the 5.56mm round by civilian companies.

In the 5th paragraph of the report, Major David LaFontaine makes the following statement which pretty much sums up what I've been saying about caliber selection for many years.

'In the end, "footpounds of energy" is misleading, "stopping power" is a myth, and the "oneshot drop" is a rare possibility dependent more on the statistics of hit placement than weapon and ammunition selection. Effectiveness ultimately equates to the potential of the weapons system to eliminate its target as a militarily relevant threat."

In the end the U.S. Army found that no commercially available alternatives in 5.56mm ammunition performed measurably better than existing issued ammo (M855, M193, M995). This study was based on CQB effectiveness, and from the ranges of 0-50 meters all ammo tested performed similarly and none stood out as being clearly superior.

Also worth mention is that during this testing the U.S. Army also tested the M80 7.62x51mm round fired from an M14 to compare it to the performance of the 5.56mm in CQB conditions. It performed in the same band of performance as the 5.56mm ammo tested. They concluded that in a CQB situation the 7.62x51mm round offered no measurable performance benefit over the 5.56mm round.

One more important note, they also concluded that "shot placement trumps all other variables". This is something I've been saying for years (and in some of my videos found on my YouTube channel). Take the weapon you can best hit the target with, then worry about what caliber it is.

Source : http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf

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The test shows as per US Army the effect of 5.56mm ( 62gr ) is nearly same a 7.62x51mm / FAL round..

Now that is interesting as we emphasis on 7.62x39mm for CT ops, And circulation of 5.56mm wounding myth..

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Also worth mention is that during this testing the U.S. Army also tested the M80 7.62x51mm round fired from an M14 to compare it to the performance of the 5.56mm in CQB conditions. It performed in the same band of performance as the 5.56mm ammo tested. They concluded that in a CQB situation the 7.62x51mm round offered no measurable performance benefit over the 5.56mm round.

One more important note, they also concluded that "shot placement trumps all other variables". This is something I've been saying for years (and in some of my videos found on my YouTube channel). Take the weapon you can best hit the target with, then worry about what caliber it is.

Exactly. On the range I could hit a 600 meter target consistently with the 7.62x51mm M-14 (iron sights). I feel that I could pick one up today and do that.

I never felt comfortable firing the 5.56mm M-16. It was not ergonomically a fit for me, the sight radius was shorter, and I hated the sound of that $^(&^%#%^ing buffer spring!

Grumble, grumble.

 

[arnabmit]

Read that when it comes to CQB, especially PDW, it is said that nothing beats the 5.7x28

FN 5.7×28mm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thats why even our VVIP security guys use the FN P90 & FN FiveSeven

[video=youtube_share;JxBFtilO_C4]http://youtu.be/JxBFtilO_C4[/video]

[video=youtube_share;9wLdvTJeeu4]http://youtu.be/9wLdvTJeeu4[/video]

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

Kunal Sir, therefore what would be the advantage of a 7.62 round in a CQB? if I go by this study, the smaller 5.56 round would do the job, isn't it? I guess here is where the stopping power issue comes....you would not want a limping tango..isn't it?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You hit the guy in right place he is going to drop..

I guess here is where the stopping power issue comes....you would not want a limping tango..isn't it?

 

[The Last Stand]

@Kunal Biswas, I gave up on small arms a while back, but I will try my best.

Actually, the old 5.56 rounds (back in early 'Nam) had notoriously high fragmentation, and on hit, they would fragment tremendously. There are stories that battle hardened veterans of US Army burst into tears with the pain when they were hit by the old 5.56 in friendly fire incidents when they did not feel anything even close if they received 7.62x39 injuries from the Type 56. The old 5.56 having "stopping power" is not a myth, the pain would be intense enough to make people stop in their tracks and fall.

@arnabmit,

5.7x28 mm is not the best in CQB, it is best used when you are firing at a target with body armour. It depends on hit placement, really, but 5.7x28 when used on someone without body armour will just go through, minimal possibility of mortal wounds since the FMJ bullet doesn't "mushroom" i.e. fragment at all. It just tears through and makes a small hole. If used against an armoured target, the armour is penetrated and the bullet then fragments inside the body, creating grievous injuries. 4.7x30 mm was made for the same purpose. To be used against armoured personnel.

I am not an Army man in the least, but I would prefer a balanced overpressure 9 mm (like the Russian rounds) firing SMG to the P90. The main advantage of the P90 is that it is very compact, and has high capacity magazines (50 rounds) and tremendous rate of fire. And it is reliable and can tear through body armour.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read this >> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/52447-poodle-killer-myth.html

"In the end, "footpounds of energy" is misleading, "stopping power" is a myth, and the "oneshot drop" is a rare possibility dependent more on the statistics of hit placement than weapon and ammunition selection. Effectiveness ultimately equates to the potential of the weapons system to eliminate its target as a militarily relevant threat."

^^ From US army study

Actually, the old 5.56 rounds (back in early 'Nam) had notoriously high fragmentation, and on hit, they would fragment tremendously. There are stories that battle hardened veterans of US Army burst into tears with the pain when they were hit by the old 5.56 in friendly fire incidents when they did not feel anything even close if they received 7.62x39 injuries from the Type 56. The old 5.56 having "stopping power" is not a myth, the pain would be intense enough to make people stop in their tracks and fall. .

 

[The Last Stand]

Read this >> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/52447-poodle-killer-myth.html



^^ From US army study

They meant this for the newer round, M193, was it? How could they know if stopping power is true or not, unless they fire it on someone?

You need to test it on people, not ballistic gelatin to conclude that stopping power is a myth.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Give a good read of the article you are provided before asking question ..

They meant this for the newer round, M193, was it? How could they know if stopping power is true or not, unless they fire it on someone?

You need to test it on people, not ballistic gelatin to conclude that stopping power is a myth.

 

[The Last Stand]

@Kunal Biswas, I will absolutely not dismiss stopping power as a myth as you have unless the rounds are tested on people. And that requires war, or a maniac.

And I did read the article fully.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you are asking for spoon feeding, there you go..

The article is about CQB that is why you missed most, Such ( CQB ) engagement occur under 50ms, You hit at right place by a 5.56mm or 7.62nato/soviet will result black out and death..

An Example >>

Shot from a 18-20inch barrel from 50 meters, Entrance wound is on the inner thigh, exit is the huge stellate laceration seen on the outer thigh. Based on the xray view of the femur bone, bone was NOT hit, but broke most probably due to the temporary stretch cavity created by the considerable hydraulic shock wave the 5.56mm cartridge is known to create. typical fragmentation that occurs when the bullet impacts human flesh at velocities in excess of 2700 fps. the size of the wound is not a surprise.The white specks are the fragments of the 55 grain 5.56mm M193 ball ammo.

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Regarding Stories, That was too covered in the articles >>

Shot placement will be the largest deciding factor in how effective a gun shot would will be in terms of dispatching the enemy. The horror stories about the ineffectiveness of the 5.56mm can be traced back to either unsubstantiated rumors and myths or to poor shot placement., It's interesting to note that when the U.S. military adopted the .308 to replace the 30-06, similar horror stories circulated. The .308 was deemed to be inferior to the 30-06 by many Soliders. Slowly these rumors faded, and their demise was hastened with the adoption of the 5.56x45mm only a few short years later.The U.S. military has never published any documents, requirements or doctrines stating a desire to adopt a rifle cartridge designed to only wound the enemy.

^^ Read and Learn...

@Kunal Biswas,And I did read the article fully.

 

[s002wjh]

well to bad military cant use ammo other than FMJ. there are tons hollow point, polymer point defense ammo in the market that do max expand/trauma damage.

 

[The Last Stand]

@Kunal Biswas, was that really needed?

I was always on the side of the 5.56, and I would rather get shot with a .30 than with a 5.56.

What I am saying: Stopping power cannot be dismissed as a myth, unless they really test it on human targets
What you are saying: All rounds are lethal if they hit the right place.

You are replying to my posts, out of context.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Carry on..

What I am saying: Stopping power cannot be dismissed as a myth, unless they really test it on human targets
What you are saying: All rounds are lethal if they hit the right place. at CQB ranges