Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[AnantS]

Works out to 60 million USD per FA . More expensive than the Dassault Mirage 2000 upgrades & this is supposedly desi stuff or are we paying a hefty amount as royalty to the Ruskies.

Both.

 

[Azaad]

Engine upgrade isn't all that necessary.
These new gen sensors are quite power efficient

Cost factor. We'd have to budget < 80 million USD per FA to bring it to Super Sukhoi standards inclusive of an engine upgrade.

 

[IndianHawk]

Works out to 60 million USD per FA . More expensive than the Dassault Mirage 2000 upgrades & this is supposedly desi stuff or are we paying a hefty amount as royalty to the Ruskies.

Mirage upgrade didn't involve aesa radar .

This upgrade will provide su30 with an aesa much more powerful than even rafale and whole new ew suite also with aesa elements. Plus there is life extension as well upto 20 more years means most of the airframe will also be renewed? With lots of new panels perhaps the weight of jet could be optimised a bit !


We'll get to know more as things move forward.

 

[Azaad]

Mirage upgrade didn't involve aesa radar .

This upgrade will provide su30 with an aesa much more powerful than even rafale and whole new ew suite also with aesa elements. Plus there is life extension as well upto 20 more years means most of the airframe will also be renewed? With lots of new panels perhaps the weight of jet could be optimised a bit !


We'll get to know more as things move forward.

Add new FBW to it & possible extensive usage of composites plus RAM / RAS coatings supposedly developed for AMCA with necessary adaptations
If everything that I read about the Super Sukhoi upgrades are true we're looking at the best Flanker in service , even better than the J-16 or Su-35 or even the Su-30 M2.

 

[IndianHawk]

Cost will/might reduce for next batch of aircrafts upgrads. there is also scope of export to su30 operators.

Btw 60k crores for how many aircrafts, I heard 84.
It is around 710 crore per aircraft. which is 86 million dollars per FA. the last figure was 93 million dollars look like they did some bargaining.
af upgrading 51 systems..

I think more than half of 51 upgrade are not worth it.
It doesn't seem value for money at all.
Most value for money, big bang for bucks. mentioned below.

GaN radar, mission computer , dual band-IRST, DR118 EW, DC-MAWS, GaN based ASPJ, DFCC, digital glass cockpit, towed X guard decoy, RAM coating possibly, heads up display ,software defined radios,fly by wire with quadruple redundancy to accommodate brahmos(only some should have been upgraded as it's necessity is limited upto Brahmos only)
Chemring Countermeasures featuring Chaff Cartridges unlike the previous Flares utilized by Indian Flankers,,
IRST will be based on quantum dot infrared photodetector which is significantly sensitive than Quantum well infrared photodetector
May be the DC-maws be based on it..
Improved Air-frame life with total 6000 flying hrs
Chassis wheels braking system,
Modern digital weapons control system.

And obviously weapon systems upgrade

Apart from this 17 upgrades I don't think wasting money on rest of 34 systems will be worth it.
For little minute gains we are wasting huge money.this isnt value for money..
Super Sukhoi is too expensive.
It could have been budget friendly with keeping necessity at top priority like those 17 systems upgrade.. investing this huge amount on su30.
which is gonna be irrelevant after 25-30 years is not a good choice either..

Most money is going into these avionics updates . Iirc 30-35% cost of a modern jet like rafale goes into avionics.
Now considering all these new avionics upgrades to mki are even more advanced than what is fielded on rafale cost easily adds up.

It will see integration of new weapons too. Rampage is a given since it's being integrated with mig29k.
Rudram series ground attack versions etc. so it's not limited to brahmos.

 

[IndianHawk]

I always had this in mind ,
as newer subsystems of aircraft have became smaller, efficient, smaller cooling systems are needed.
Aircraft with lighter sub-systems can beade lighter.
or will this effect flight characteristic and ballast weight will be added to compensate.

the bars radar is very heavy because of its weight they had to use canards. it weights 650kg. It definetely requires bigger cooling system.. it's computer systems electronics are gonna be bigger as it's is from 90s &2000s. Same is the case with IRST..
So will it cause a problem if we reduce weight. will it requires some ballast to balance out??

I think whatever weight they end up loosing they will use that to strengthen its pylons to increase its payload capacity.
Otherwise we could simply see some improvement in thrust to weight ratio. But they won't be changing over-all weight much because that would affect control laws .

 

[sehzad]

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[Satish Sharma]

''is derivative'' It’s not, they are two seperate projects that were conducted at same time with usage of same technologies and R-27A being cancelled due to money and focusing only on R-77

9B-1348E is for RVV-AE, R-77 that has never gone in mass production used 9B-1348

Also,
Just 9B-1103, without “K”

Do we have the R27T/ET IR missile , have we brought longer range variant of this missile of 120km. Or we got 40km &80km ones.

Do we have R27EA active radar homing seeker missile..

Do we have R27P/EP anti radiation missile on our su30s...

 

[Zoid Raptor]

A lone Indian Air Force pilot in front of the sukhoi 30MKI Squadron (Flanker-H)

 

[Super Flanker]

Most likely from an Exercise.

 

[Azaad]

First time I'm hearing of this. How true is this? @SwordOfDarkness

 

[NutCracker]

First time I'm hearing of this. How true is this? @SwordOfDarkness

Just like a good low light photography camera has bigger sensors to grab as many photons possible. It's called F- number.

A bigger aperture / (each TRM dimension) in radar means su30 can capture weaker returning signals. Thanks to large nose SU30 can carry bigger TRM(big aperture) in higher number(resolution).

 

[Azaad]

Just like a good low light photography camera has bigger sensors to grab as many photons possible. It's called F- number.

A bigger aperture / (each TRM dimension) in radar means su30 can capture weaker returning signals. Thanks to large nose SU30 can carry bigger TRM(big aperture) in higher number(resolution).

A couple of points. These LO or "Stealth " Aircraft could then also be visible to AWACS. The jury is out on that one. I've seen reports claiming both - it's not visible & it's visible with the caveat that the visibility is < ~ 20 kms .

Then there's the issue of tracking. X band radar FCRs have had difficulties developing strong signals at a distance from the target when it comes to tracking LO aircraft

 

[Bleh]

A couple of points. These LO or "Stealth " Aircraft could then also be visible to AWACS. The jury is out on that one. I've seen reports claiming both - it's not visible & it's visible with the caveat that the visibility is < ~ 20 kms .

Then there's the issue of tracking. X band radar FCRs have had difficulties developing strong signals at a distance from the target when it comes to tracking LO aircraft

AWACS are slow... Maybe we should bring out our Foxbats with some AESA modifications.

 

[DumbPilot]

AWACS are slow... Maybe we should bring out our Foxbats with some AESA modifications.
View attachment 257516

The AWACS will still have a longer loiter time than the Foxbat lol

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

First time I'm hearing of this. How true is this? @SwordOfDarkness

Not sure, but I don't think it can track stealth targets with x band radar alone. X band is basically dependant on reflection for detection, and for fighter size targets, it won't work on stealth shaped targets with RAM coating.

Although I think the radome is big enough to allow dual band radar, with low band emitters to try and get a general enough location for stealth targets (especially for aircraft like j20, those canards can be quite susceptible to radar resonance ) and then use something like AstraIR to get terminal guidance.

Just like a good low light photography camera has bigger sensors to grab as many photons possible. It's called F- number.

A bigger aperture / (each TRM dimension) in radar means su30 can capture weaker returning signals. Thanks to large nose SU30 can carry bigger TRM(big aperture) in higher number(resolution).

Not exactly, trm size will correspond more to wavelength than aperture. The reason aperture is cited as being important is because a larger aperture allows you to capture a larger number of angles of reflected waves. Not sure how useful it will be in this case, with negligible difference and with the apparant aperture being quite large due to the speed of aircraft.

A couple of points. These LO or "Stealth " Aircraft could then also be visible to AWACS. The jury is out on that one. I've seen reports claiming both - it's not visible & it's visible with the caveat that the visibility is < ~ 20 kms .

Then there's the issue of tracking. X band radar FCRs have had difficulties developing strong signals at a distance from the target when it comes to tracking LO aircraft

Quite possible, but an enemy plane within 60-70 km of an awacs is a virtual death sentence for it.

Aewacs could benefit a lot from long wavelength radars, especially with the radar size being less of an issue than fighters.

Although, take all this with a grain of salt as I also am not exactly an expert on radars and am still learning much every time I look up the topic.

 

[Zoid Raptor]

 

[Bleh]

The AWACS will still have a longer loiter time than the Foxbat lol

But Foxbats will actually stay there, while AWACS will come crashing in flames in combat

 

[DumbPilot]

But Foxbats will actually stay there, while AWACS will come crashing in flames in combat

Technically, we don't have that guarantee on the Foxbat too

Range wise, the AWACS will never really be close to the forward line and it will always have some sort of HAVCAP protecting it.

If a Foxbat is engaged in the role of an AWACS, unless we put a rotating dish on it, it will only be able to look at objects with its forward line of sight, limited by the radar cone. A time will come where it will have to turn away because it gets too close, and during that time there would be a blackout unless another Foxbat is also engaged in providing targeting information.

Past this hurdle, there are multiple controllers sitting inside an AWACS controlling multiple lanes, and all of that responsibility is then shifted over to the pilot(s) present in the cockpit - he has to fly the plane, map out his safety, perform maneuevers, utilize the radar, process lots of requests, keep track of every flight in his area, and so on - a surefire receipe for helmet fire.

The AWACS crew can manage all of this efficiently and with speed, with only one plane airborne - and that's not counting its own defense arsenal: it can simply fry the fire control radar of a perceived threat by focusing all that power into one area, if something does get too close(assuming it's not taken care of by the HAVCAP already)

These are what BVR lanes may look like hypothetically, with each controller sitting in the AWACS managing one or two:

It's not the best sketch, but you can see how the single or dual Foxbat crew would be not as efficient in this environment as the AWACS.