Sukhoi Su 30MKI

[uoftotaku]

The ONLY way in which an SU-30MKI will ever go into combat with Derby missiles is if IAF pursues replacement of the Bars radar and fire control system with an equivalent Israeli system (most likely EL-2052 based growth version) which is firstly a gross violation of the ToT agreement with the Russians and secondly totally impractical as this would also require a total rework of the aircraft from bottom up akin to the MiG-21Bison project...but far more complex given the base complexity of the SU-30 vs the MiG-21

its a media canard...not worthy of attention. Astra and its future derivatives will be the only BVR missile in IAF post 2025

 

[IndianHawk]

The ONLY way in which an SU-30MKI will ever go into combat with Derby missiles is if IAF pursues replacement of the Bars radar and fire control system with an equivalent Israeli system (most likely EL-2052 based growth version) which is firstly a gross violation of the ToT agreement with the Russians and secondly totally impractical as this would also require a total rework of the aircraft from bottom up akin to the MiG-21Bison project...but far more complex given the base complexity of the SU-30 vs the MiG-21

its a media canard...not worthy of attention. Astra and its future derivatives will be the only BVR missile in IAF post 2025

Not really. Derby can mate with bars provide we have source code for both. How do you think we mate Astra to su30.

Now will Russia agree to Israeli missile or will Israel agree to Russia radar is a different question. It may not happen. But that's political. Technically it's very much possible.

Also while many people are sighting old contract and Russia / Israel difference etc. I firmly believe that India has enough clout with both Russia and Israel to make it happen . So I won't be surprised if this goes ahead. But that's just me.

Another question is either Russia provide us with a longer range missile then current r77we have or allow us to integrate something better. Denying both will be detrimental to mutual partnership and will lead to justification of fgfa cancellation.

Same for Israel they can deny mating derby with bars but that just means they will be loosing a huge market and indian funds will go in development of their competition Astra mk2.

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[uoftotaku]

Not really. Derby can mate with bars provide we have source code for both. How do you think we mate Astra to su30.

Now will Russia agree to Israeli missile or will Israel agree to Russia radar is a different question. It may not happen. But that's political. Technically it's very much possible.

Also while many people are sighting old contract and Russia / Israel difference etc. I firmly believe that India has enough clout with both Russia and Israel to make it happen . So I won't be surprised if this goes ahead. But that's just me.

Another question is either Russia provide us with a longer range missile then current r77we have or allow us to integrate something better. Denying both will be detrimental to mutual partnership and will lead to justification of fgfa cancellation.

Same for Israel they can deny mating derby with bars but that just means they will be loosing a huge market and indian funds will go in development of their competition Astra mk2.

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For ASTRA mating with Bars...why you think Astra uses Ukrainian sourced seeker currently? Specifically for easy intergration with the Bars. I do not think we have access to Bars source codes...otherwise IAF would not have chosen R-77 at all due to negative experience gained from first batches supplied for Bisons and MiG-29s (unreliable and highly suspect rocket motors)

Politically, you may think that we are on top but unfortunately our corrupt babus have always signed contracts that put is in a position of long term dependence on the OEM. Su-30 contract is no exception and our dependence on UAC is almost total in critical areas. If we try to drive a hard bargain..i'm afraid WE will be on the losing end...why do you think Super 30 upgrade is stuck for so many years?

its not so simple. Israelis are no angels either...diplomacy aside..business is business for them...they too drive a hard bargain. And when WE are the ones hungry to tech...we cannot dictate terms for lack of alternatives.

 

[IndianHawk]

For ASTRA mating with Bars...why you think Astra uses Ukrainian sourced seeker currently? Specifically for easy intergration with the Bars. I do not think we have access to Bars source codes...otherwise IAF would not have chosen R-77 at all due to negative experience gained from first batches supplied for Bisons and MiG-29s (unreliable and highly suspect rocket motors)

Politically, you may think that we are on top but unfortunately our corrupt babus have always signed contracts that put is in a position of long term dependence on the OEM. Su-30 contract is no exception and our dependence on UAC is almost total in critical areas. If we try to drive a hard bargain..i'm afraid WE will be on the losing end...why do you think Super 30 upgrade is stuck for so many years?

its not so simple. Israelis are no angels either...diplomacy aside..business is business for them...they too drive a hard bargain. And when WE are the ones hungry to tech...we cannot dictate terms for lack of alternatives.

Astra has been test fired with indegenios seeker repeatedly. So your information is wrong.

R77 is a wonderful missile it's just old now. Russia has longer range new versions of r77.

We integrated bramhos air to su30 on our own despite old contracts. Russia can force our hand on su30 but it will have to compromise somewhere else. A relationship takes two.

Yup Israeli are businessman that's what I said it's bad business to lose market to upcoming competition ( Astra mk2) when you have a ready made product today.

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[blackhawk_80]

Israeli jammers were there on su30mki.( I'm not sure of this though).
Even on mig27 there were elta jamming pods!

Russia and Israel do collaborate closely.

Anyway if not derby ER then probably r77- 1 latest version will do.


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It's curiously enoght, though. What kind of jammers were there?

As for Russia and Israel collaboration, it a matter of interest as well. Collaboration in reference to what?

 

[IndianHawk]

It's curiously enoght, though. What kind of jammers were there?

As for Russia and Israel collaboration, it a matter of interest as well. Collaboration in reference to what?

Well I tried to find out but couldn't.
Here are facts : we have Russian sap 518 jammers but they are bulky and increase drag/ disturb aerodynamic. So IAF has been looking to replace them. Domestic jammer pad has been in development for some time now.

Elta jamming pods have been integrated with mig27 . Upgraded version of that pod has been offered for lca.

Make of these facts what you will.

Russia Israel have been cooperating on Syria issue closely.

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[lcafanboy]

Engine Swap offer for Su-30MKI fleet puts IAF at crossroads
Published June 3, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG Head of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation has confirmed that 110+ fleet of Su-30SM inducted by Russian Air Force will be swapped with Saturn AL-41F-1S turbofan engines from existing Salyut AL-31FP to maintain commonality with Su-35S fleet and a study to modify and integrate AL-41F-1S engines into Su-30SM fleet already has been approved and AL-41F-1S turbofan engines reportedly also has been offered to Indian air force on Su-30MKI fleet upon which Su-30SM was based on. Russian Air Force has decided that fresh batch of 36 Su-30SM fighter jets will come equipped with AL-41F-1S engines which roughly translates into an additional power of 19kN (4271lbs) thrust per engine opening up the potential for future avionics upgrades such as a new radar, electronic countermeasures, additional weapons load capabilities and boost to the thrust-to-weight ratio of the fighter aircraft. AL-41F1S is heavy upgraded AL-31F engine which entered in service with Su-35s fighter jet which is in service with Russian and Chinese air force and also on offer to India under MMRCA 2.0 tender for 114 units of fighter jets. According to Industrial sources close to idrw.org, Service issues of AL-31FP which has been notified to Russian engine makers by Indian Air Force have reached a stage that minor fixes no more can fix all the issues raised by IAF and Russia has offered AL-41F1S which they claim faces no such issues and comes with years of reliability while equipped on Su-35S fleet. Swapping AL-31FP engines with AL-41F1S will mean that Su-30MKI will have additional electrical power available for future avionics upgrades such as a new or upgraded AESA radar and also improve overall kinematic performance by some margin. If India ends up buying Su-35S fighter jets then it will also maintain commonality with Su-30MKIs. India and Russia are yet to complete finalization of Super 30 upgrade program under which the whole fleet of 270+ Su-30MKIs fleet in Indian Air Force will get hosts of new improved avionics and weapons package along with new AESA Radar.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/engine-swap-offer-for-su-30mki-fleet-puts-iaf-at-crossroads/ .

 

[Defcon 1]

Well I tried to find out but couldn't.
Here are facts : we have Russian sap 518 jammers but they are bulky and increase drag/ disturb aerodynamic. So IAF has been looking to replace them. Domestic jammer pad has been in development for some time now.

Elta jamming pods have been integrated with mig27 . Upgraded version of that pod has been offered for lca.

Make of these facts what you will.

Russia Israel have been cooperating on Syria issue closely.

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Elta 8222 has been integrated with MKI long back. If MKI was flying with Israeli jammers on 27th Feb, they were most probably Elta 8222. IAF doesn't like Russian jammers at all since they are heavy. We have developed our own indigenous jammer for use on MKI although it doesn't have DRFM like Elta-8222.

 

[IndianHawk]

Engine Swap offer for Su-30MKI fleet puts IAF at crossroads
Published June 3, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG Head of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation has confirmed that 110+ fleet of Su-30SM inducted by Russian Air Force will be swapped with Saturn AL-41F-1S turbofan engines from existing Salyut AL-31FP to maintain commonality with Su-35S fleet and a study to modify and integrate AL-41F-1S engines into Su-30SM fleet already has been approved and AL-41F-1S turbofan engines reportedly also has been offered to Indian air force on Su-30MKI fleet upon which Su-30SM was based on. Russian Air Force has decided that fresh batch of 36 Su-30SM fighter jets will come equipped with AL-41F-1S engines which roughly translates into an additional power of 19kN (4271lbs) thrust per engine opening up the potential for future avionics upgrades such as a new radar, electronic countermeasures, additional weapons load capabilities and boost to the thrust-to-weight ratio of the fighter aircraft. AL-41F1S is heavy upgraded AL-31F engine which entered in service with Su-35s fighter jet which is in service with Russian and Chinese air force and also on offer to India under MMRCA 2.0 tender for 114 units of fighter jets. According to Industrial sources close to idrw.org, Service issues of AL-31FP which has been notified to Russian engine makers by Indian Air Force have reached a stage that minor fixes no more can fix all the issues raised by IAF and Russia has offered AL-41F1S which they claim faces no such issues and comes with years of reliability while equipped on Su-35S fleet. Swapping AL-31FP engines with AL-41F1S will mean that Su-30MKI will have additional electrical power available for future avionics upgrades such as a new or upgraded AESA radar and also improve overall kinematic performance by some margin. If India ends up buying Su-35S fighter jets then it will also maintain commonality with Su-30MKIs. India and Russia are yet to complete finalization of Super 30 upgrade program under which the whole fleet of 270+ Su-30MKIs fleet in Indian Air Force will get hosts of new improved avionics and weapons package along with new AESA Radar.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/engine-swap-offer-for-su-30mki-fleet-puts-iaf-at-crossroads/ .

Seems sensible to upgrade engine. Earlier su30mki came in 2002 will serve for 20 more years while last batch will be out by 2021-22 and will serve till 2060. More power will be essential for future ew equipment huge and Powerful aesa , jammers , irst etc. The only problem is cost of upgrading 280 MKI.

I asked this before what is the cost of Al 41f1s .
And what is the cost of a su30 size aesa .

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[Steven Rogers]

Elta 8222 has been integrated with MKI long back. If MKI was flying with Israeli jammers on 27th Feb, they were most probably Elta 8222. IAF doesn't like Russian jammers at all since they are heavy. We have developed our own indigenous jammer for use on MKI although it doesn't have DRFM like Elta-8222.

SAP518 is an escort jammer which performs wide band jamming while elta 8222 is a self protection jammer which requires drfm so that it can perform deception jamming. Escort jammers don't require drfm, drdo hbj is a replacement for sap518 not elta 8222.... Su30 in a strike mission is required to carry sap518/hbj, while the air cover are needed to carry elt8222.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

For ASTRA mating with Bars...why you think Astra uses Ukrainian sourced seeker currently? Specifically for easy intergration with the Bars. I do not think we have access to Bars source codes...otherwise IAF would not have chosen R-77 at all due to negative experience gained from first batches supplied for Bisons and MiG-29s (unreliable and highly suspect rocket motors)

Politically, you may think that we are on top but unfortunately our corrupt babus have always signed contracts that put is in a position of long term dependence on the OEM. Su-30 contract is no exception and our dependence on UAC is almost total in critical areas. If we try to drive a hard bargain..i'm afraid WE will be on the losing end...why do you think Super 30 upgrade is stuck for so many years?

its not so simple. Israelis are no angels either...diplomacy aside..business is business for them...they too drive a hard bargain. And when WE are the ones hungry to tech...we cannot dictate terms for lack of alternatives.

If it goes at a slain's space as usual, hopefully UTTAM may be ready in 3 years. Uttam is a top class Radar. We can have a scaled up version in MKI.

 

[IndianHawk]

Vishnu some on su30 MKI upgrade.
A bit sensationalist. But lots of info.
Chinese su30 copy now have Chinese aesa.

Indian su30mki upgrade will take 5 years to be validated and 2years to upgrade the fleet.
Further upgrade will be allowed in India itself.
Cost 8000-9000 Cr for upgrade and testing
And 200 Cr for each fighter

So whole package may be 280*200= 56000cr + 9000cr = 65000cr. = 10 billion $.
35 million USD each MKI.

Radar offered is pesa irbis E which is deemed twice as powerful as current bars.

New missiles rvv SD 120 km and rvv BD 400km AWACS killer.

Also asraam to be integrated.

Other than irbis E everything else is good.
We need to ready Uttam for su30 but that will delay upgrade program by 3-4 more years.

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[Shekhar Singh]

Engine Swap offer for Su-30MKI fleet puts IAF at crossroads
Published June 3, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG Head of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation has confirmed that 110+ fleet of Su-30SM inducted by Russian Air Force will be swapped with Saturn AL-41F-1S turbofan engines from existing Salyut AL-31FP to maintain commonality with Su-35S fleet and a study to modify and integrate AL-41F-1S engines into Su-30SM fleet already has been approved and AL-41F-1S turbofan engines reportedly also has been offered to Indian air force on Su-30MKI fleet upon which Su-30SM was based on. Russian Air Force has decided that fresh batch of 36 Su-30SM fighter jets will come equipped with AL-41F-1S engines which roughly translates into an additional power of 19kN (4271lbs) thrust per engine opening up the potential for future avionics upgrades such as a new radar, electronic countermeasures, additional weapons load capabilities and boost to the thrust-to-weight ratio of the fighter aircraft. AL-41F1S is heavy upgraded AL-31F engine which entered in service with Su-35s fighter jet which is in service with Russian and Chinese air force and also on offer to India under MMRCA 2.0 tender for 114 units of fighter jets. According to Industrial sources close to idrw.org, Service issues of AL-31FP which has been notified to Russian engine makers by Indian Air Force have reached a stage that minor fixes no more can fix all the issues raised by IAF and Russia has offered AL-41F1S which they claim faces no such issues and comes with years of reliability while equipped on Su-35S fleet. Swapping AL-31FP engines with AL-41F1S will mean that Su-30MKI will have additional electrical power available for future avionics upgrades such as a new or upgraded AESA radar and also improve overall kinematic performance by some margin. If India ends up buying Su-35S fighter jets then it will also maintain commonality with Su-30MKIs. India and Russia are yet to complete finalization of Super 30 upgrade program under which the whole fleet of 270+ Su-30MKIs fleet in Indian Air Force will get hosts of new improved avionics and weapons package along with new AESA Radar.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/engine-swap-offer-for-su-30mki-fleet-puts-iaf-at-crossroads/ .

Is there any operational AESA which Russians are operating?

 

[lcafanboy]

Is there any operational AESA which Russians are operating?

Byelka (radar)

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N036 Byelka (Russian: Белка, literally Squirrel) is an advanced active electronically scanned array radar system developed by Tikhomirov NIIP for the fifth generation Sukhoi Su-57 fighter aircraft.

N036 Byelka

NIIP's Byelka AESA radar for the Su-57 on display at the 2009 MAKS airshow

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byelka_(radar)

 

[Armand2REP]

Is there any operational AESA which Russians are operating?

Is either the MiG-35 or Su-57 operational? They are certainly on flying test-beds.

 

[Shashank Nayak]

Between VSTOL jockey from STF was saying that IAF has gone for R-77-1 from Russia to be delivered ASAP...

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Is either the MiG-35 or Su-57 operational? They are certainly on flying test-beds.

Means, it is in developmental stage like Uttam.

 

[Vijyes]

I don't think Astra can be stopped now.
R77 are 15-20 years old now and huge numbers need to be replaced . Derby ER is a step ahead of Astra mk1 . Astra mk2 with dual pulse motor will be equivalent to derby ER.

That also means derby ER will be more costly than Astra mk1. So only limited numbers will be ordered . While Astra mk1/ mk2 will become bread and butter in large numbers.

Think of them like meteor and mica. Meteor is lethal but too costly hence mica still has a role to play in huge numbers.

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How is I-derby better than Astra Mk1. Both are quite similar. How Meteor can be compared to MICA? Meteor is long range whereas MICA is WVR.

For ASTRA mating with Bars...why you think Astra uses Ukrainian sourced seeker currently? Specifically for easy intergration with the Bars. I do not think we have access to Bars source codes...otherwise IAF would not have chosen R-77 at all due to negative experience gained from first batches supplied for Bisons and MiG-29s (unreliable and highly suspect rocket motors)

Politically, you may think that we are on top but unfortunately our corrupt babus have always signed contracts that put is in a position of long term dependence on the OEM. Su-30 contract is no exception and our dependence on UAC is almost total in critical areas. If we try to drive a hard bargain..i'm afraid WE will be on the losing end...why do you think Super 30 upgrade is stuck for so many years?

its not so simple. Israelis are no angels either...diplomacy aside..business is business for them...they too drive a hard bargain. And when WE are the ones hungry to tech...we cannot dictate terms for lack of alternatives.

Don't tell lies and pass it as facts. India used foreign seekers as UPA did not allow for development of seekers. India was doing ground trials of Astra for 11 years without even trialing from aerial mode from 2003 to 2014! But now Astra has indigenous seeker and has been integrated with Su30.

Su30 codes for BARS radar is with India as the radar processing unit is Indian design. Su30 has deep TOT which includes engine Technology transfer and hence no dependence on Russia technologically.

Engine Swap offer for Su-30MKI fleet puts IAF at crossroads
Published June 3, 2019 | By admin SOURCE: RAUNAK KUNDE / NEWS BEAT / IDRW.ORG Head of Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation has confirmed that 110+ fleet of Su-30SM inducted by Russian Air Force will be swapped with Saturn AL-41F-1S turbofan engines from existing Salyut AL-31FP to maintain commonality with Su-35S fleet and a study to modify and integrate AL-41F-1S engines into Su-30SM fleet already has been approved and AL-41F-1S turbofan engines reportedly also has been offered to Indian air force on Su-30MKI fleet upon which Su-30SM was based on. Russian Air Force has decided that fresh batch of 36 Su-30SM fighter jets will come equipped with AL-41F-1S engines which roughly translates into an additional power of 19kN (4271lbs) thrust per engine opening up the potential for future avionics upgrades such as a new radar, electronic countermeasures, additional weapons load capabilities and boost to the thrust-to-weight ratio of the fighter aircraft. AL-41F1S is heavy upgraded AL-31F engine which entered in service with Su-35s fighter jet which is in service with Russian and Chinese air force and also on offer to India under MMRCA 2.0 tender for 114 units of fighter jets. According to Industrial sources close to idrw.org, Service issues of AL-31FP which has been notified to Russian engine makers by Indian Air Force have reached a stage that minor fixes no more can fix all the issues raised by IAF and Russia has offered AL-41F1S which they claim faces no such issues and comes with years of reliability while equipped on Su-35S fleet. Swapping AL-31FP engines with AL-41F1S will mean that Su-30MKI will have additional electrical power available for future avionics upgrades such as a new or upgraded AESA radar and also improve overall kinematic performance by some margin. If India ends up buying Su-35S fighter jets then it will also maintain commonality with Su-30MKIs. India and Russia are yet to complete finalization of Super 30 upgrade program under which the whole fleet of 270+ Su-30MKIs fleet in Indian Air Force will get hosts of new improved avionics and weapons package along with new AESA Radar.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/engine-swap-offer-for-su-30mki-fleet-puts-iaf-at-crossroads/ .

Since India makes Al31F engine, it makes no sense to import Al41F. Russia is not willing to give Al41F TOT. So, India will get a plane which will have imported engines by replacing Al31F with Al41F. This is not a good deal. Indigenous engines are important to maintain self sufficiency and hence can't be given up.

Elta 8222 has been integrated with MKI long back. If MKI was flying with Israeli jammers on 27th Feb, they were most probably Elta 8222. IAF doesn't like Russian jammers at all since they are heavy. We have developed our own indigenous jammer for use on MKI although it doesn't have DRFM like Elta-8222.

Su30 has its own jamming pods. Unless India recently replaced them with ELTA 8222, it still has Russian pods.

 

[Armand2REP]

How Meteor can be compared to MICA? Meteor is long range whereas MICA is WVR.

Mica is medium range, Meteor is insanely long range.

 

[Defcon 1]

Su30 has its own jamming pods. Unless India recently replaced them with ELTA 8222, it still has Russian pods.

Not really. It had 8222 from a long time, most probably from the beginning.
This page was updated in 2006 and mentions 8222 that far back.
https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galleries/Models/Misc/016/