Small arms of India

[Ray]

One presumes the raid was successful. How long were you in the Indian Army, Ray?

Commissioned Service 1967 - 2002

One presumes the raid was successful. How long were you in the Indian Army, Ray?

Still carry the scars.

Supposed to have changed the scenario.

 

[Redhawk]

And the average Pakistani citizen still believe that it was all Indian propaganda and nothing of that sort ever happened in reality!!Speaks much of their nature.They truly deserve to be in that shithole they find themselves in.

I agree with you. They are utterly incapable of being objective and honest about themselves.

 

[Redhawk]

Commissioned Service 1967 - 2002



Still carry the scars.

Supposed to have changed the scenario.

Excellent! 35 years' service as a commissioned officer is quite a feat! And then there's your time as a non-commissioned rank on top of that, too! All greatly well done! I'm sure your countrymen are grateful for your honourable service to the country.

 

[Blood+]

Commissioned Service 1967 - 2002



Still carry the scars.

Supposed to have changed the scenario.

Hey sir,is it the same one where a Pakistani hurled a 77 white phosphorus grenade towards you and your leg got burnt??

 

[Ray]

Hey sir,is it the same one where a Pakistani hurled a 77 white phosphorus grenade towards you and your leg got burnt??

That is right.

He did not know the difference between between No 36 HE and No 77WP.

Must have panicked.

 

[Redhawk]

That is right.

He did not know the difference between between No 36 HE and No 77WP.

Must have panicked.

No. 36 HE grenade and No. 77 WP grenade, eh? All old British grenades, Ray. Were you and the Pakistanis still using British infantry weapons, e.g. hand grenades, in the 1960s and 70s?

 

[Ray]

No. 36 HE grenade and No. 77 WP grenade, eh? All old British grenades, Ray. Were you and the Pakistanis still using British infantry weapons in the 1960s and 70s?

Some things don't change.

Any better grenades in mind?

That is leaving out the cosmetic appeal or the desire for change for the sake of change.

 

[Redhawk]

Some things don't change.

Any better grenades in mind?

That is leaving out the cosmetic appeal or the desire for change for the sake of change.

Well, when I had to use a grenade, which admittedly wasn't often, we were trained to use the lemon-shaped M26 HE hand grenade. This was the standard hand grenade for the Australian army until the F1 grenade, which is a locally designed and produced product. The M26 was an American grenade made under licence in Australia and it looked like this:

The No. 36 HE grenade weighed in at 765 g (1 lb 11 oz.) while the M26 was 454 g exactly (exactly 1 lb). The current Australian standard hand grenade the F1 weighs only 375 g (approx. 13.23 oz.). Presumably, the No. 36 HE was made under licence in India and Pakistan, or was it?

 

[Blood+]

Well, when I had to use a grenade, which admittedly wasn't often, we were trained to use the lemon-shaped M26 HE hand grenade. This was the standard hand grenade for the Australian army until the F1 grenade, which is a locally designed and produced product. The M26 was an American grenade made under licence in Australia and it looked like this:

The No. 36 HE grenade weighed in at 765 g (1 lb 11 oz.) while the M26 was 454 g exactly (exactly 1 lb). The current Australian standard hand grenade the F1 weighs only 375 g (approx. 13.23 oz.). Presumably, the No. 36 HE was made under licence in India and Pakistan, or was it?

Exactly.In fact,No. 36 was still being used in Indian Army till very recently.

 

[Redhawk]

Exactly.In fact,No. 36 was still being used in Indian Army till very recently.

From the Wiki article, "Mills bomb":

The heavy segmented bodies of "pineapple" type grenades result in an unpredictable pattern of fragmentation. After the Second World War Britain adopted grenades that contained segmented coiled wire in smooth metal casings. The No. 36M Mk.I remained the standard grenade of the British Armed Forces and was manufactured in the UK until 1972, when it was completely replaced by the L2 series. The 36M remained in service in some parts of the world such as India and Pakistan, where it was manufactured until the early 1980s. Mills bombs were still being used in combat as recently as 2004 e.g. the incident which killed US Marine Jason Dunham and wounded two of his comrades.[5]

Good luck to the Indian Army! They were using a hand grenade first issued 100 years ago! 1915 was when the first Mills bombs were designed and issued and the No. 36 hand grenade was a type of Mills bomb! Never let it be said that the Indian Army ever changed anything for the sake of change or fashion. If it worked in 1915, it will work now! Damn it! I like this commendable attitude!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, Such firearms are being distributed among platoon and Squad size force, But majority i have seen, Use 1B1 with scope than rare SVDs, I have seen these are under usage of RR, I cannot say the same about every other unit in Army as of now ..

Since when and what is the organisation of the Section and Platoon?

The thumb rule for a section is that it must have a minimum of 06 in the assault group to be effective. The rest are the support group.

==============

SVD is a DMR indeed, But is also used as a sniper rifle with snipers teams within regular Infantry units, SF gear is different from regulars ..

SLR was used as a DMR when SLR was also the AR for Infantry, Now 1B1 ( INSAS is family of firearm ) is the AR of the Infantry and Its accuracy with provided scope makes its a suitable DMR, Commonality of ammunition and spare is important ..

But sir,Dragunov SVD was never meant to be a sniper rifle to begin with!!I mean it's used as a designated marksman rifle by the Indian army and is meant to engage targets at 900-1000 yards at max.The snipers on the other hand use the Galil (SF only) ,HK PSG 1 and Mauser SP 66 bolt action rifles with the OFB Marksman rounds.

And don't you think that it would be better to use the SLRs in DMR role rather than the INSAS since 7.62 NATO match grade ammunition are manufactured by the ordnance factories,but there are no Mk 262 or Mk 318 equivalents are produced in our country.But the SLR can share the same match grade rounds that are used in the Galil and SP 66.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The 36M grenades are very old, Many proved to be duds in operations ..

These are being replaced by Shivalik grenades, The process is slow though ..

Source : http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100722/main6.htm

 

[Redhawk]

Yes, exactly. The Pakistanis simply had no chance. And the Pakistani government were complete idiots for putting them in that position. And the wholesale atrocities committed by the Pak Army against the Bengali population were inexcusable. Pakistan deserved to lose East Bengal (East Pakistan) and it did.

Interesting video clip of a British television news crew's report of the Pakistani Army's surrender in East Pakistan in December 1971.

 

[Redhawk]

The 36M grenades are very old, Many proved to be duds in operations ..

These are being replaced by Shivalik grenades, The process is slow though ..

I have no doubt that many of the old No. 36 HE grenades were duds. The filler breaks down and the mechanism corrodes with age and the design is a 100 years old.

Perhaps the Indian Army should have adopted the U.S. M26 grenade or the ARGES 84 - P2A1, a.k.a. Arges Type HG 84.

 

[Blood+]

Sir, Such firearms are being distributed among platoon and Squad size force, But majority i have seen, Use 1B1 with scope than rare SVDs, I have seen these are under usage of RR, I cannot say the same about every other unit in Army as of now ..



==============

SVD is a DMR indeed, But is also used as a sniper rifle with snipers teams within regular Infantry units, SF gear is different from regulars ..

SLR was used as a DMR when SLR was also the AR for Infantry, Now 1B1 ( INSAS is family of firearm ) is the AR of the Infantry and Its accuracy with provided scope makes its a suitable DMR, Commonality of ammunition and spare is important ..

But as far as commonality goes,the SLR has got more commonality with simplified logistics profile since the Indian Army's primary GPMG,the FN MAG is also chambered for that caliber.Besides,they do not need to import match grade rounds for SLR because those are already produced in country for the Galils,Mauser SP 66 and the HK PSG1 sniper rifles.In fact,if anything,the SVD has created more problems rather than solving any,since you yourself have mentioned it multiple times that there are severe shortages of match grade rounds of 7.62X54mm caliber and the forces are left with regular 7.62X54R rounds of the PKM!!at least there wouldn't be any such problem with the SLR.

Here is the round as per OFB :
Ordnance Factory Board

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In that sense, Yes it is a good Idea ..

But as far as commonality goes,the SLR has got more commonality with simplified logistics profile since the Indian Army's primary GPMG,the FN MAG is also chambered for that caliber.Besides,they do not need to import match grade rounds for SLR because those are already produced in country for the Galils,Mauser SP 66 and the HK PSG1 sniper rifles.In fact,if anything,the SVD has created more problems rather than solving any,since you yourself have mentioned it multiple times that there are severe shortages of match grade rounds of 7.62X54mm caliber and the forces are left with regular 7.62X54R rounds of the PKM!!at least there wouldn't be any such problem with the SLR.

Here is the round as per OFB :
Ordnance Factory Board

 

[ALBY]

SLRs and SVDs are un matchable.The former weapon was created with an intention to be used as a semi auto sniper and later to be used as a pure battle rifle.So the level of accuracy varies.Plus the range of a SVD is far more than that of a SLR.So is the ergonomics.Concerning the match grade ammo produced by OFB,i never heard any thing such that coz army imported about 2 lakh rounds of sniper grade 7.62x51 ammo to use exclusively in Galils were imported from Israel.

 

[ALBY]

Re: Mg-42

@Ray & @ kunal ,In the movie haqeeqat((1964) i had seen chinese soldiers with AKS and SKS rifles.I think those were the weapons captured from chinese during 1962 war and was used to give some originality unlike the present times where in movies Pak and indian soldiers use same type weapons used exclusively by indian army eg::SLR,bren and FNMAG.
What happens to such weapons captured in battles?In the 1971 surrender pics we could see 100s of AKS,RPDS and SKS surrendered by pak Army.
Also how only in some movies the weapons used are original ones issue to army(100% sure that are not props or airsoft).Did they have to pay heafty amounts, coz in most of the movies weapons are just the ones you will saw in 'mela'

 

[Redhawk]

The M-36, according to the DRDO, has a severe reliability problem due to its flawed fusing system and uneven fragmenting pattern, making it unsafe even for the thrower.

Yeah, the new Shivalik grenade ought to be much safer than the old M36 Mills bomb.

 

[Blood+]

SLRs and SVDs are un matchable.The former weapon was created with an intention to be used as a semi auto sniper and later to be used as a pure battle rifle.So the level of accuracy varies.Plus the range of a SVD is far more than that of a SLR.

Is that so??Ok,lets check their muzzle velocity shall we??
1.SVD ---- 830 meter/sec
2.SLR ---- 840 meter/sec
So pray telling me how the range of a SVD suddenly became so 'far more than that of a SLR'??

And in anyway,you have got it totally mixed up in your comment.So first make up your mind about what you are trying to say.But as far as I can understand from that botched up portion,it seems that you said the SVD was created with an intention to be used as a semi auto sniper,well,I'm sorry to say that you couldn't have been more wrong than this.The SVD was never meant to be a sniper rifle like the H&K PSG1 or the Mauser SP66 are.......rather it was designed to be a DMR from the its very inception.

Just take a cursory look at the barrel design of the SVD and it should become all clear.Excerpt from wikipedia :
" The barrel profile is relatively thin to save weight and is ended with a slotted flash suppressor. The barrel's bore is chrome-lined for increased corrosion resistance, and features 4 right-hand grooves. It is not rifled over its full length but partly over a length of 547 mm (21.5 in). In the 1960s, the twist rate was 320 mm (1:12.6 in). During the 1970s, the twist rate was tightened to 240 mm (1:9.4 in), which reduced the accuracy of fire with sniper cartridges by 19%. This adaptation was done in order to facilitate the use of tracer and armor-piercing incendiary ammunition, since these bullet types required a shorter twist rate for adequate stabilization"

Now tell me,which sniper rifle has got a thin and partially grooved barrel with such low twist rate that the rifle can not even stabilize most of the bullets??!!Please do not neglect these smaller details,these are very important.

And if you had read carefully,I had always maintained that the standard barrel of the SLR would be needed to be changed with a heavy bull barrel (quite doable since OFB already produces them for FN MAG 58s and so the materials and know how is readily available).That's how the Israelis modified their Galils. That thing was developed as a pure battle rifle too,yet the Galil sniper,with proper ammunition and scope can engage targets beyond a kilometer with not much trouble.

And you also deliberately forgot about the ammo commonality with other small arms chambered for that caliber and more over,the ammo is in production.But such is not the case with Dragunov SVD and in any case,the Dragunovs are being fed with regular 7.62X54R cartridges of the PKMs anyway,so its 'superior accuracy' is a moot point at the moment!!It is quite clear from the comments of both @Ray sir and @Kunal Biswas bhai,that there is a severe ammunition shortage for the SVDs.

So is the ergonomics.Concerning the match grade ammo produced by OFB,i never heard any thing such that coz army imported about 2 lakh rounds of sniper grade 7.62x51 ammo to use exclusively in Galils were imported from Israel.

Ordnance Factory Board

It doesn't have have to match the quality of say,the Lapua Scenar or Lake City for using them in a DMR,for a DMR doesn't need to engage targets beyond a kilometer,for them to be effective,800-900 yards max would be more than enough.Even your so beloved Dragunov was designed to engage targets not beyond that range,there is a reason why the PSO1 telescopic sight has a magnification of just a measly 4x,should keep that into mind too.