Small arms of India

[Vorschlaghammer]

And useless - gatling guns last 20 secs of full auto fire before jamming up - and are heavy and vehicle served to boot; Negev 7/PKM/Mk48 please. Belt fed lao!

Being pedantic here, but M134 type rotary MGs are more jam resistant than other types of MGs by virtue of being externally powered by an electric motor. If a dud round doesn't fire, the motor will extract and eject, no gas pressure required.

Disregarding the inhuman recoil and burning through ammo problem, external power demands are the reason why rotary MGs are not suitable in infantry sections.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Due technology improvement latest 7.62x51 rifle is the same size and weight of earlier 5.56*45 rifles. That is new 7.62*51 rifle would be 1.5 kg lighter & 4-8 inch shorter than Isapore SLR.

Therefore 7.62*51 rifles are making a come back.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Due technology improvement latest 7.62x51 rifle is the same size and weight of earlier 5.56*45 rifles. That is new 7.62*51 rifle would be 1.5 kg lighter & 4-8 inch shorter than Isapore SLR.

Therefore 7.62*51 rifles are making a come back.

 

[mohitbhagat]

And useless - gatling guns last 20 secs of full auto fire before jamming up - and are heavy and vehicle served to boot; Negev 7/PKM/Mk48 please. Belt fed lao!

Also it consumes lot of ammo. If you'll compare with numbers of rounds hitting the target wrt conventional lmgs you'll always find conventional ones much more accurate

 

[mohitbhagat]

Well in high stress environments, like in counter terror operations, soilders tend to fire at any body part of terrorists, when fired with INSAS it does not kill, on non lethal parts, as INSAS is not design to do that. Also INSAS without full auto and non lethal blow on terrorist is not weapon of choice on anti terror operation. Therefore its at outer ring, because of good accuracy at 400 or more meters.

Its understandable that RR want AK47 or Ak series for anti terror operation to kill terrorists.

Actually our troops hate insas more than they hate 5.56 nato. An Ak47 is smaller in length, almost 1kg lighter, has side or bottom foldable buttstock, has full auto option and the much higher stopping power. Don't forget the SFs in J&K still use M4a1 and tar21 chambered in 5.56 nato.
So just stopping power is not the only reason why Ak's are preferred but more because of its reliability and ease of use.

 

[mohitbhagat]

7.62 nato is coming back not due to technological advancement but due to change in battlefield requirements and type of enemy

 

[Yodha]

Subsonic ammunition Indian made 5.56 are similar to the nato version with muzzle velocity of around 900m/s.
Yes the wound channel is not as big and lethal as the 7.62×39. But it's damn good in penetrating body armours much better than the AK's just because of its much higher velocity. You will need a AP round or hard steel core rounds of AK to penetrate level 3 armor plates.

I'm going to call bravo Sierra on this one. AK is AK. I fired all of those Insas and Ak. 762 is much better than 556. And india doesn't use steel core or AP. We use ball rounds. We Don't have to dream.

 

[rishivashista13]

Seems all efforts to buy new rifles are doomed to fail. Just do what the British are doing and update what you have.

INSAS is a perfectly good base, it is reliable and accurate- perfect for battle rifles. Just add modern furniture and accessories like this and keep it around for another 15-20 years.

1,000,000++ INSAS in service, it will be atrociously expensive to replace all with a new rifle and that too a foreign one.

A new rifle costs probably $1-2000 USD (best case) without sights and any other add-ons. I’m sure an update to INSAS like this can be done for less than $400 per rifle.

But corrupt incompetent IA brass doesn’t think like this, they only want foreign all-expenses paid tours and kickbacks.

No longer convinced a new rifle is needed, make do with what you have, stupid to think the INSAS is outdated when it is but 20-25 years old. m4/M16 is 60+ year old design and still going strong.

Don't agree, Working on Insas platform is waste of money, it's much better to manufacturer a new platform or purchase one if required. INSAS have lost all its trustworthyness and moreover Soldiers don't feel confident using Insas. Soldiers motivation and confidence is most important thing in combat. A new platform will boost the motivation of army and off course will be a much better weapon then INSAS.
I personally feel that MCIWS was the potential platform with much possibilities.

Sent from my Redmi 4A using Tapatalk

 

[mohitbhagat]

I'm going to call bravo Sierra on this one. AK is AK. I fired all of those Insas and Ak. 762 is much better than 556. And india doesn't use steel core or AP. We use ball rounds. We Don't have to dream.

Yes ball ammo with and without steel inserts. India uses both 5.56 nato ie m855/ss109 which has a mild steel penetrator and older m193 without steel inserts. 7.62×39mm rounds also have steel inserts.
Special AP or black tip rounds are imported and provided to SFs.
Both 5.56 and 7.62×39 have their different advantages and disadvantages. Depends on the purpose they are used for.

 

[Yodha]

Yes ball ammo with and without steel inserts. India uses both 5.56 nato ie m855/ss109 which has a mild steel penetrator and older m193 without steel inserts. 7.62×39mm rounds also have steel inserts.
Special AP or black tip rounds are imported and provided to SFs.
Both 5.56 and 7.62×39 have their different advantages and disadvantages. Depends on the purpose they are used for.

Well I haven't seen those green tipped insas 5.56 rounds. It's only available in text format in ofbindia website. Mild steel or steel core need berdan primers, with boxer type primers the increase in weight of the bullets the pressure is insufficient even before the round reaches the gas vent of Insas. With every gram of increase in weight we lose the all burnt point pressure and it results in increase of stoppages or double feed problems.

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Thing is, putting together a bunch of individual good ideas don't make a good rifle. INSAS components are proven on paper, but if they are not in synergy, the rifle won't be good. The UK did the same thing in the 80s with SA80 program, using bureaucracy and engineers with mechanical knowledge but no experience in weapons design, and ended up with the garbage that is L85A1. British MoD had to seek external consultancy from HK to make the L85A1 into the somewhat usable L85A2, with completely new HK designed internals.
If we want to save INSAS, it needs to have thorough design review and tweaks, with a genuine and serious approach, then rapid replacement in the field. Which we all know isn't happening, hence a new platform is far more practical.

 

[Yodha]

Listen buddies, Insas is accurate but it is made with a purpose to incapacitate. I can see people arguing that 5.56 is any day better than 7.62. and let me tell you, it is utter bullshit.
You want a soldier to go for a military sports shooting competition, give him an Insas and he'll be happy.
But if you need him to step out of a COB in Kashmir, give him an AK. It is not only about the Calibre, but is about the weapon too.

7.62*51 is coming for sure.
7.62*39 is also coming.
8.66 sniper.

 

[Yodha]

Seems all efforts to buy new rifles are doomed to fail. Just do what the British are doing and update what you have.

INSAS is a perfectly good base, it is reliable and accurate- perfect for battle rifles. Just add modern furniture and accessories like this and keep it around for another 15-20 years.

1,000,000++ INSAS in service, it will be atrociously expensive to replace all with a new rifle and that too a foreign one.

A new rifle costs probably $1-2000 USD (best case) without sights and any other add-ons. I’m sure an update to INSAS like this can be done for less than $400 per rifle.

But corrupt incompetent IA brass doesn’t think like this, they only want foreign all-expenses paid tours and kickbacks.

No longer convinced a new rifle is needed, make do with what you have, stupid to think the INSAS is outdated when it is but 20-25 years old. m4/M16 is 60+ year old design and still going strong.

We lost love with INSAS. It is going for sure. 7.62 is the new poster boy for us now.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Listen buddies, Insas is accurate but it is made with a purpose to incapacitate. I can see people arguing that 5.56 is any day better than 7.62. and let me tell you, it is utter bullshit.
You want a soldier to go for a military sports shooting competition, give him an Insas and he'll be happy.
But if you need him to step out of a COB in Kashmir, give him an AK. It is not only about the Calibre, but is about the weapon too.

7.62*51 is coming for sure.
7.62*39 is also coming.
8.66 sniper.

5.56 was developed for different purpose and during different time. It was developed keeping in mind the conflict between two professional armies and conventional wars. It fulfil the purpose it was developed for. It was not meant for skinny mujahedeens on do or die missions. Indian army directly adopted it aping the west without putting in much serious thoughts.
But nowadays of modern and unconventional warfare have different requirements which it is failing to fulfil.
So the debate of which caliber is better than other totally depends on the kind and place of warfare it is going to be used.

 

[Yodha]

5.56 was developed for different purpose and during different time. It was developed keeping in mind the conflict between two professional armies and conventional wars. It fulfil the purpose it was developed for. It was not meant for skinny mujahedeens on do or die missions. Indian army directly adopted it aping the west without putting in much serious thoughts.
But nowadays of modern and unconventional warfare have different requirements which it is failing to fulfil.
So the debate of which caliber is better than other totally depends on the kind and place of warfare it is going to be used.

Sir, tell me something new.

We are not talking about warfare or mujahideen. It is about the superiority of a Calibre. I'd root for 7.62 anyday.

 

[Hari Sud]

Why are we chasing INSAS and its derivative rifles when it has been rejected by the Army. Even police forces prefer Ak-47 hence any talk about INSAS etc. Is unneccasry.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Seems all efforts to buy new rifles are doomed to fail. Just do what the British are doing and update what you have.

INSAS is a perfectly good base, it is reliable and accurate- perfect for battle rifles. Just add modern furniture and accessories like this and keep it around for another 15-20 years.

1,000,000++ INSAS in service, it will be atrociously expensive to replace all with a new rifle and that too a foreign one.

A new rifle costs probably $1-2000 USD (best case) without sights and any other add-ons. I’m sure an update to INSAS like this can be done for less than $400 per rifle.

But corrupt incompetent IA brass doesn’t think like this, they only want foreign all-expenses paid tours and kickbacks.

No longer convinced a new rifle is needed, make do with what you have, stupid to think the INSAS is outdated when it is but 20-25 years old. m4/M16 is 60+ year old design and still going strong.

Insas is accurate but is a flimsy gun with very old and outdated furniture. The thing is also of poor quality control. And our lacklustre attitude of govt babus and employees. When it was initially introduced it had many flaws and army was assured of these flaws will get rectified and the rifle will be further improved and modernized. Many flaws were rectified many remained. But the problem was that ofb stopped keeping R&D and improvement of insas going after that. And the rifle mostly remained as it was when introduced. Had there been an ongoing and proper improvement going on the problem would not have been the same. Only when army got totally fed up of the gun thats when ofb woke up and started to improve and modernise it.
Also when you compare AR15 series to Insas its totally absurd. Go and take a look of how actual armalite AR15 designed by Stoner looked like and how regular improvement and upgradation got it where it is now. It didn't happened with the Insas. Modern AR15 have moved on from DI operating system to piston system. Insas stayed as it was.
British gets their rifles upgraded by H&K and this will be their 3rd time doing so. Also upgradation of each rifle are costing them around $2000.
Also for being insas to be able to work till further 20-25 years will require serious upgradation and forget about ofb being capable of doing it. And any private firm will take a significant amount of money to do them for us.
And just because our military purchases a foreign equipment doesn't mean that all they want is back kicks and foreign travels.

 

[mohitbhagat]

Thing is, putting together a bunch of individual good ideas don't make a good rifle. INSAS components are proven on paper, but if they are not in synergy, the rifle won't be good. The UK did the same thing in the 80s with SA80 program, using bureaucracy and engineers with mechanical knowledge but no experience in weapons design, and ended up with the garbage that is L85A1. British MoD had to seek external consultancy from HK to make the L85A1 into the somewhat usable L85A2, with completely new HK designed internals.
If we want to save INSAS, it needs to have thorough design review and tweaks, with a genuine and serious approach, then rapid replacement in the field. Which we all know isn't happening, hence a new platform is far more practical.

I totally agree with you, insas and ofb had plenty of time... 2.5 decades to be precise.

 

[Hari Sud]

At what stage in Sig Sayer rifles procurement, also the carbine procurement. I believe the Caracal carbine was initially selected and then dumped. What is the next step.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

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