Small arms of India

shom

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The 5.7x28mm "Cop Killer" Cartridge Myth:-
By Barr H. Soltis with Chuck Hawks

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As a U.S. Government intelligence manager, I receive a significant number of "Officer Safety" alerts generated by a wide variety of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies. One alert that regularly rears its ugly head focuses on the alleged "cop killer" 5.7x28mm round fired by the Five-seveN pistol manufactured by Fabrique Nationale de Herstal (FNH) of Belgium. Given my innate curiosity, I decided to research this super duper cop-killing round and try to put it into perspective.

This is a .224 caliber rimless, bottlenecked, boxer primed, centerfire cartridge designed for use in semi-automatic arms. (Primarily pistols and sub-machineguns.) The cartridge overall length is 1.594 inches and it can be loaded to a maximum pressure of 50,040 psi.

Published reports indicate that as factory loaded the 5.7x28mm drives a 32 grain bullet, load #SS190-AP (armor piercing), at a muzzle velocity (MV) of 2350 fps with 390 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy (ME). The 28 grain spitzer bullet, load #SS195LF-JHP, has a muzzle velocity of 2350 fps and muzzle energy of 290 ft. lbs. The 40 grain Hornady V-Max bullet, load #SS197SR, claims a muzzle velocity of 1950 fps with 340 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. Readers old enough to remember the obsolete .22 Remington Jet small game and varmint cartridge of 1960--40 grain bullet at about 2000 fps from a S&W Model 53 revolver--will be startled to hear that the slightly less powerful 5.7x28mm is a "cop-killer" round.

It is important to remember that the 5.7x28mm velocity and energy figures were derived from a 10.35 inch (sub-machinegun length) test barrel and that the Five-seveN pistol barrel actually measures 4.82 inches in length. Realistically, we can anticipate a substantial velocity loss of about 20% when the 5.7x28mm cartridge is fired from a pistol. This would mean an actual MV of approximately 1560 fps and ME of 216 ft. lbs. for the 5.7x28mm 40 grain bullet when fired from a handgun. Because it starts a heavier bullet at lower velocity, which maximizes energy and minimizes velocity loss, this should be the most effective load for a 5.7x28mm pistol.

A comparison of the performance of the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire (WMR), introduced in 1959, and the 5.7x28mm is interesting. The .22 WMR shares the same bullet diameter (.224") as the 5.7x28mm cartridge and their muzzle and energy figures are actually rather similar.

Winchester's Supreme .22 WMR loaded with a 34 grain jacketed hollow point bullet has a muzzle velocity of 2120 fps and muzzle energy of 339 ft. lbs. from a (presumably 24") rifle barrel and a muzzle velocity of 1690 fps with 216 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy from a 6.5" pistol barrel. (That is just a hair over the 20% velocity loss that we postulated for the 5.7x28mm.)

Winchester's Super-X .22 WMR 40 grain jacketed hollow point (JHP) and full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets--Winchester offers both--have a MV of 1910 fps with ME of 324 ft. lbs. from a rifle barrel. Fired from a 6.5" pistol barrel the same loads register 1480 fps MV and 195 ft. lbs. ME. Note that rifle ballistics of this load are nearly identical to the 40 grain 5.7x28mm factory load as fired from a sub-machinegun length barrel and from a pistol barrel the 5.7x28mm is only a puny 21 ft. lbs. of kinetic energy ahead of the .22 WMR. I have never heard that semi-automatic .22 WMR squirrel and jackrabbit rifles were considered a particular threat to police, nor have I ever heard the .22 WMR described as a "cop killer" handgun round. Actually, the .22 WMR is considered a "mouse gun" caliber by most handgun authorities.

Another interesting comparison is with the 9x19mm (9mm Luger) cartridge. The 9x19 is the official NATO pistol and sub-machinegun cartridge and is widely used by police as well as by at least some real life criminals. Using Winchester published ballistics for comparison, we find that the popular Super-X 115 grain Silvertip JHP load has a MV of 1225 fps and ME of 383 ft. lbs. from a 4" pistol barrel. The U.S. military load for the 9x19mm drives a 124 grain bullet at a MV of 1299 fps and ME of 465 ft. lbs. from the Beretta M9 service pistol.

These numbers indicate that the common 9x19mm is a considerably more powerful cartridge than the 5.7x28mm when fired from pistol length barrels. This will surprise no one familiar with firearms or who has a passing familiarity with external ballistics. In reality, because the 9x19 fires a heavier bullet with far greater cross-sectional area, it will create a much larger wound cavity and prove far deadlier than this simple comparison of "paper" ballistics would indicate.

The 5.7x28mm caused quite a stir a few years back with the assertion that its AP load could penetrate at least some Kevlar helmets and body armor. (So, of course, will most other AP rifle and handgun rounds.) This may or may not be true, but the fact is that sales of armor piercing ammo are restricted to law enforcement and the military. This alone makes the 5.7x28mm cop killing round nothing more than an urban legend, leaving the practical use of the 5.7x28mm for target shooting, plinking and short range varmint hunting, much like the .22 WMR.

Frankly, I know of few individuals who would be willing to spend more than $900.00 for the FN Five-seveN pistol and then shell out more than $20 for a 50 round box of ammunition. (.22 WMR ammo commonly sells for $7-$8 for a 50 round box.) I imagine that the Five-seveN probably also fails to spark much interest with criminals, as these pistols are rare and thus almost impossible to acquire except from legitimate, FFL dealers. Typically, the criminal element usually relies on the availability of larger (9x19mm, for instance), more effective calibers that can be easily acquired in the stolen gun market.

This leaves us with the obvious conclusion that the 5.7x28mm cartridge has little advantage over the .22 WMR in terms of killing power and serious disadvantages in terms of the price and availability of both firearms and ammunition. Without doubt, being shot with either can have deadly results, but there are much greater threats and more important things with which to be concerned. The top "man stopping" handgun cartridge remains the .357 Magnum, and it has been around since 1934.

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Courtesy:- Chuckhawks.com
 

shom

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FN Herstal P90:-

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The FN P90 is a selective fire personal defense weapon (PDW) designed and manufactured by FN Herstal in Belgium.[9] The P90's name is taken from 1990, the year it was introduced.[4] The P90 was created in response to NATO requests for a replacement for 9×19mm Parabellum firearms; it was designed as a compact but powerful firearm for vehicle crews, operators of crew-served weapons, support personnel, special forces and counter-terrorist groups.[9][10]
The P90 was designed by FN in conjunction with the FN Five-seven pistol and FN 5.7×28mm ammunition.[4] Development of the P90 began in 1986, and production commenced in 1990, whereupon the 5.7×28mm ammunition was redesigned and shortened.[1] A modified version of the P90 with a magazine adapted to use the new ammunition was introduced in 1993, and the Five-seven pistol was subsequently introduced as a companion weapon using the same 5.7×28mm ammunition.[11]
The P90 was developed and initially marketed as a personal defense weapon, but it could also be considered a submachine gun or compact assault rifle.[12] Featuring a compact bullpup design with an integrated reflex sight and fully ambidextrous controls, the P90 is an unconventional weapon with a futuristic appearance.[12] Its design incorporates several innovations such as a unique top-mounted magazine and FN's small-caliber, high-velocity 5.7×28mm ammunition.[12]
The P90 is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, such as Austria, Brazil, Canada, France, India, Malaysia, Poland, and the United States.[13] In the United States, the P90 is in use with over 200 law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.[14] The standard selective fire P90 is restricted to military and law enforcement customers, but since 2005, a semi-automatic carbine version has been offered to civilian shooters as the PS90.[15]
Design :-
The P90 was designed to have a length no greater than a man's shoulder width, to allow it to be easily carried and maneuvered in tight spaces, such as the inside of an armored vehicle.[12] To achieve this, the weapon's design utilizes the unconventional bullpup configuration, in which the action and magazine are located behind the trigger and alongside the shooter's face so that there is no wasted space in the stock.[15] The P90's dimensions are also minimized by its unique horizontally mounted feeding system, wherein the box magazine sits parallel to the barrel on top of the weapon's frame.[12] The weapon overall has an extremely compact profile—it is the most compact fixed-stock submachine gun to be made.[12] The standard version of the weapon has an overall length of 500 mm (19.7 in), a height of 210 mm (8.3 in), and a width of 55 mm (2.2 in).[7]
The P90 requires minimal maintenance, and it can be disassembled quickly and easily.[7][21] It is a modular firearm, consisting of four main component groups: the barrel and optical sight group, the moving parts group, the frame and trigger group, and the hammer group. The P90's barrel is cold hammer-forged and chrome-lined, with an overall length of 263 mm (10.4 in).[8] The barrel has eight rifling grooves with a right-hand twist rate of 1:231 mm (1:9.1 in), and it is equipped with a diagonally cut flash suppressor that also acts as a recoil compensator.[7][8] The stated service life of the barrel is 20,000 rounds.[12]
The P90 uses an internal hammer striking mechanism and a trigger mechanism with a three-position rotary dial fire control selector, located at the foot of the trigger. The dial has three settings: S – safe, 1 – semi-automatic fire, and A – fully automatic fire. When set on A, the P90's fire selector provides a two-stage trigger operation similar to that of the Steyr AUG assault rifle—pulling the trigger back slightly produces semi-automatic fire, and pulling the trigger fully to the rear produces fully automatic fire.
Indian Special Protection group uses the P90 TR version.
P90 TR:-

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The P90 TR (Triple Rail) model, also known as the "flat-top," was introduced in late 1999.[7] It features a receiver-mounted triple MIL-STD-1913 (Picatinny) rail interface system, or "Triple Rail," for mounting accessories.[7] There is one full-length accessory rail integrated into the top of the receiver, and two rail stumps are included on the sides of the receiver.[7] The top rail will accept various optical sights with no tools or additional mounting hardware required, and the side rails serve to mount secondary accessories, such as tactical lights or laser aiming devices.[8]
Courtesy:- wikipidia
 
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ALBY

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Are you trolling :D

Did you give a read what written on that poster..
come on man..of course am not ..well where else could i post the pic if not here as it it gives a brief insight into the future acquisition program of army.
 

Kunal Biswas

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That poster was merely a Marketing poster, Please do see if it is worth posting..
 

ALBY

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That poster was merely a Marketing poster, Please do see if it is worth posting..
Man may be it would be an advertising,but these are the same reasons sited by MOD for inviting fresh bids for the replacements of the weapons listed here.Any way i too dont agree with atleast some of the decisions like replacing insas and SVD siting petty reasons which are solvable.Any way its too late to replace sterlings from the infantry with more powerful weapons.But i dont agree with replacing them with some fancy western 9mms which lackk power and are no practiical use in conventional and CT ops.
 

Kunal Biswas

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Anyways you would be surprise to know that some one at MOD is making money from buying AKM to replace carbine in all Infantry Units in IA..

The Carbines which were suppose to be replace by MSMC, If you compare MSMC with AK, MSMC in present config is far better than AK for carbine role..

==========================

Any Freelance Journalist reading this post can research more and may publish an article over it, Will be exciting.. :)

But i dont agree with replacing them with some fancy western 9mms which lackk power and are no practiical use in conventional and CT ops.
 

ALBY

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Anyways you would be surprise to know that some one at MOD is making money from buying AKM to replace carbine in all Infantry Units in IA..

The Carbines which were suppose to be replace by MSMC, If you compare MSMC with AK, MSMC in present config is far better than AK for carbine role..

==========================

Any Freelance Journalist reading this post can research more and may publish an article over it, Will be exciting.. :)
Any way i have no feelings for SMGS in army as an AKM or x95 will do better than a 5.56x30mm MSMC in current day CT scenarios(i admits that 5.56x30 is way better than 9mm but not as par with m43 or 5.56 nato) which happens mostly in dense jungles or in the outskirts of villages.Well in room to room fighting or clearing of buildings they are ideal.

And in this 21st century when weapons are lot lighter compared to those in 1940/50s the concept of SMG for radio operators and commanders and drivers are just obsolete.Look at any foreign army example US army only SF and USMC uses less powerful SMGs .Regulars dont use them,they uses shortened M4s instead of SMGs.
Any why no law enforcement agency in INDIA is reluctant to induct MSMC as it matches their requirement plus unless the advertisement strategy of OFB is gonna change i don't think any of its product is going to be inducted in the security forces.


ps:As far i know there are no new AK imports by MOD after the one from romania in 1996.Bulgarian ones are for police and para miliitary.
 

Kunal Biswas

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SMG is not a AR, and 5.56x30 is equivalent to 5.56mm Nato in ballistics and muzzle velocity at closer ranges coz of Gun powder..

If i have a choice would rather pic a MSMC then an AK for SMG role, US army pattern of small arms and ideology is not same as IA..

If that would have been same then we would have been using Kalantak instead of SMG..

======================

That is the scam and not published..

Any way i have no feelings for SMGS in army as an AKM or x95 will do better than a 5.56x30mm MSMC in current day CT scenarios(i admits that 5.56x30 is way better than 9mm but not as par with m43 or 5.56 nato) which happens mostly in dense jungles or in the outskirts of villages.Well in room to room fighting or clearing of buildings they are ideal.

Any why no law enforcement agency in INDIA is reluctant to induct MSMC as it matches their requirement plus unless the advertisement strategy of OFB is gonna change i don't think any of its product is going to be inducted in the security forces.


ps:As far i know there are no new AK imports by MOD after the one from romania in 1996.Bulgarian ones are for police and para miliitary.
 

ALBY

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SMG is not a AR, and 5.56x30 is equivalent to 5.56mm Nato in ballistics and muzzle velocity at closer ranges coz of Gun powder..

If i have a choice would rather pic a MSMC then an AK for SMG role, US army pattern of small arms and ideology is not same as IA..

If that would have been same then we would have been using Kalantak instead of SMG..

======================

That is the scam and not published..
Adding MSMC means adding one more type of ammo to the existing infantry arsenal.This will only add logistics problems.Instead if we induct kalanthak or our equivalent of AK102 or shortened m4 means there wont be problem of ammo,spares etc and the objective could be attained too.
Any way i am not a fan of Indian ideology or army pattern coz still we follows the WWII era British pattern ie SMGs,mag fed LMGs etc.Where as the British ,Russians and Americans are no following this any more .A good example is of the mag fed lmgs that too of just 30 round capacity.The armed forces all over the world had evolved and are now using MGs that could receive both mags and belts.Also the idea of snipers was inducted only in 80s and that is yet to be inducted in the paramilitary forces
 

Kunal Biswas

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I am not asking you to be a fan nor Indian Army, What is followed in our system that is how thing goes here..

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LMG with 30rnds is best, For an LMG it is good when conducting an assault, While GPMG is the one with belt fed and can be used for mobile defense and suppressive fire but it cannot be used effectively while charging or fire on move, Ask any foreign army grunt he would be happy to use a mag instead of belt for LRP or assault, though it is better solution to have both fed, One good option to have a drum feed for INSAS, But as no one seeking to do anything we are stuck..

Any way i am not a fan of Indian ideology or army pattern coz still we follows the WWII era British pattern ie SMGs,mag fed LMGs etc.Where as the British ,Russians and Americans are no following this any more .A good example is of the mag fed lmgs that too of just 30 round capacity.The armed forces all over the world had evolved and are now using MGs that could receive both mags and belts.Also the idea of snipers was inducted only in 80s and that is yet to be inducted in the paramilitary forces
 

SilentKiller

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I am not asking you to be a fan nor Indian Army, What is followed in our system that is how thing goes here..

---------------------------------------

LMG with 30rnds is best, For an LMG it is good when conducting an assault, While GPMG is the one with belt fed and can be used for mobile defense and suppressive fire but it cannot be used effectively while charging or fire on move, Ask any foreign army grunt he would be happy to use a mag instead of belt for LRP or assault, though it is better solution to have both fed, One good option to have a drum feed for INSAS, But as no one seeking to do anything we are stuck..
drum fed is good option, but LMG really needs to be light, more ammo more weight.
INSAS LMG is bit heavy for drum fed, hope its new versions are lighter!!

Or if one likes movies Arnold's movies are great bet, kill 200 men and no need to load, carry 10 guns and run, them go on to have deadly knife fight...or we can throw nalka at enemy or scream at them or flip googles and all will just die.
:wave:
 
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ALBY

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I am not asking you to be a fan nor Indian Army, What is followed in our system that is how thing goes here..

---------------------------------------

LMG with 30rnds is best, For an LMG it is good when conducting an assault, While GPMG is the one with belt fed and can be used for mobile defense and suppressive fire but it cannot be used effectively while charging or fire on move, Ask any foreign army grunt he would be happy to use a mag instead of belt for LRP or assault, though it is better solution to have both fed, One good option to have a drum feed for INSAS, But as no one seeking to do anything we are stuck..
I am only against the reluctant to ecvolve attitude o army top brass and think tanks .What ever.......
Any way what is the practical use of a 30 round MG in CT or any tiyoee of operation as MGs are meant to give fire support and suppressive fire cover .Thhis means they are tend to empty their mags very quickly.Instead of 30 rounds theresshouldbe 45 round or 60 round mags or 75 round drums .
 

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