Siachen Glacier : The Highest battleground on Earth

[Ray]

I wonder what Ajtr has to say now that it is clear that MMS is not going to come to the rescue of Pakistan over Siachen?

The Government of India has decided to stick to the conventional Indian position that before any demilitarisation of Siachen, Pakistan should agree to full demarcation of the ground position of troops on the glacier. The decision was taken during a meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) and the same will be reiterated by India at the defence secretary-level talks between the two countries in Islamabad next week.

 

[sukhish]

siachen is not even an issue. let the forces stay where they are. just develop friendship relationship

 

[ajtr]

Remebering the soldiers of Siachin

Pakistan on May 29, 2012 declared 140 people dead buried by a huge avalanche on Siachen Glacier, approximately seven weeks ago. Only three bodies have been recovered so far from the glacier despite desperate rescue efforts in collaboration with foreign teams.

Pakistani women light candles in remembrance of Pakistani soldiers who lost their lives in an avalanche on the Siachen Glacier. – Photo by AP

Students lay flowers next to a billboard showing solidarity with Pakistani soldiers who lost their lives in an avalanche on the Siachen Glacier. – Photo by AP

Young men place candles in front of the portraits of Pakistani soldiers victims of an avalanche, during a ceremony in Peshawar. – Photo by AFP

People gather in front of the portraits of Pakistani soldiers victims of an avalanche, during a ceremony in Peshawar. – Photo by AFP

Women place candles in front of the portraits of Pakistani soldier's victims of an avalanche, during a ceremony in Peshawar. – Photo by AFP

Veiled women place flowers underneath the portraits of Pakistani soldiers victims of an avalanche, during a ceremony in Peshawar. – Photo by AFP

Pakistani women light candles in remembrance of Pakistani soldiers who lost their lives in an avalanche on the Siachen Glacier. – Photo by AP

 

[Bhadra]

I wonder what Ajtr has to say now that it is clear that MMS is not going to come to the rescue of Pakistan over Siachen?

National issues should not be decided on whims and fancies like Nehru did. They should be decided on rationalities. Rational arguments as against emotions suggests that Pakistan must fully realise that it has got to exist with a neighbour from which it broke off. Breaking off was a historical and one time event / reality. That does not mean it is there to be grabbed and a series of breaking ups are real ones to be engineered.

What ever my friends Pakistanis assume and plan can equally be applied to them. Siachin is for a keep and not for barter. That now is a piece to be kept, gained over the blood of our soldiers. There is no rational to vacate it. Pakistan has tried all trick over it including physical assaults (the ultimate).

 

[Bhadra]

What ajtar is depicting is, emotions, far away removed from rationality.... people and soldiers die in Pakistan in flood relief also... there is nothing great about soldiers losses in avalanches

 

[ajtr]

I wonder what Ajtr has to say now that it is clear that MMS is not going to come to the rescue of Pakistan over Siachen?

We have faith in PM MMS to deliver on siachin even if he cant deliver on India's economy.

 

[ajtr]

What ajtar is depicting is, emotions, far away removed from rationality.... people and soldiers die in Pakistan in flood relief also... there is nothing great about soldiers losses in avalanches

1000s of People die every day on indian roads in accidents then why is it only that only 26/11 Mumbai victims deserve candle-light vigil and human chains?why not those who die on roads?

 

[Bhadra]

We have faith in PM MMS to deliver on siachin even if he cant deliver on India's economy.

Like Indira Gandhi had faith on Bhutto to deliver on Shimla Agreement even if he could never deliver on home front.

False hopes I suppose or at best, hopes that deliver temporarily being irrational though well intentioned.

All Indian decisions regarding Pakistan were based on false expectations and Pakistan always took crooked advantage of those emotional decisions.

 

[Bhadra]

1000s of People die every day on indian roads in accidents then why is it only that only 26/11 Mumbai victims deserve candle-light vigil and human chains?why not those who die on roads?

Ask yourself. More than in India they die in Pakistan. Then why only in Siachin deserve candle marches and that propaganda? People who were killed by Pakistani terrorists in Mumbai were killed deliberately within control of human actions and human emotions of hatred and being part of war like acts. What ever happened in Mumbay was an act of war committed by humans against another human community.

That is just unforgivable.

 

[Ray]

We have faith in PM MMS to deliver on siachin even if he cant deliver on India's economy.

I am glad that Pakistanis have faith in an Indian.

Nothing surprising.

After all, Pakistanis have lost faith in their Leaders and even in their country and so they have to have faith somewhere.

 

[Ray]

Khalil Gibran has said:

Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is his twin brother.

 

[Neil]

No dramatic decision on Siachen: Antony

Three days ahead of defence secretary-level talks between India and Pakistan, Defence minister AK Antony on Friday stressed there would be "no dramatic announcement" on demilitarising the Siachen glacier — the world's highest battleground and an old sore in the bilateral ties.

He said, "We have a very clear cut position (on Siachen). Don't expect any dramatic announcement... It is very important to us in terms of national security." He said India would stick to its guns during the talks in Islamabad on June 11-12.
Several rounds of talks have failed because Pakistan refuses to authenticate troop position — a precondition set by India.

Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari had made an appeal to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in April for demilitarising the glacier. He had requested the withdrawal of Indian and Pakistani troops in the wake of casualties suffered by the Pakistani army in an avalanche near Siachen on April 7.

Army sources, however, said India could not risk withdrawing until Pakistan authenticated troop position. Nature's fury has killed more soldiers than firing — India lost 26 soldiers during the last one year.

The guns have been silent since the November 2003 ceasefire on the 110-km Actual Ground Position Line.


:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

 

[Ray]

The Dramatic announcement is that Anthony has told Pakistan - TAKE A HIKE!

 

[Neil]

The Dramatic announcement is that Anthony has told Pakistan - TAKE A HIKE!

true ray sir....and Anthony is not sibal or PC....he is very well respected in political circles especially by 10 janpath road.....and he has stood firmly behind army's stand for a very long time....so pakis can dream all they can about MMS delivering on siachen...!!

 

[Tronic]

1000s of People die every day on indian roads in accidents then why is it only that only 26/11 Mumbai victims deserve candle-light vigil and human chains?why not those who die on roads?

Because its fun stripping Pakistan naked and exposing them to the world. Cheers!

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Siachin was almost a done deal

Pakistan and India had reached a near agreement in 1992 on the Siachen dispute after Islamabad assented to recording the existing troop positions in an annex, but the deal was never operationalised because the Indian political leadership developed cold feet.

Pakistan Army Chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said recently that it was time the two countries resolved the dispute. He said this during a visit to the region after an avalanche earlier this year on the Pakistani side killed more than 100 soldiers and civilians.

The text of the 1992 negotiating drafts — obtained and reproduced by The Hindu — shows just how close the two sides were to such a resolution two decades ago: the Pakistani delegation offered a proposal that met India's demand of recording existing ground positions before withdrawal of troops from a proposed zone of disengagement.

The talks that year, the sixth round both countries had held on the issue, took place in New Delhi from November 2-6, 1992.

Pakistan's proposal of indicating in an annexure the areas the armed forces of the two sides would vacate and redeploy to found immediate acceptance among Indian officials. The Indian delegation was led by N.N. Vohra, then the defence secretary. "We had finalized the text of an agreement at Hyderabad House by around 10 pm on the last day", Mr. Vohra, who is now the Governor of Jammu and Kashmir, told The Hindu. "Signing was set for 10 am. But later that night, instructions were given to me not to go ahead the next day but to conclude matters in our next round of talks in Islamabad in January 1993". "Of course, that day never came", Mr. Vohra added. "That's the way these things go," he said.

Narasimha Rao was Prime Minister at the time and the BJP's campaign against the Babri Masjid was in high gear. Siachen quickly receded from the government's list of priorities.

The 1949 ceasefire agreement delineated the Line of Control until point NJ9842, after which, it said, it would run "thence north to the glaciers". In 1984, fearful of adverse Pakistani moves, Indian soldiers moved north and eventually occupied most of the highest points on the glaciers. The 'Siachen conflict' was born.

The Indian side's proposal dated November 3, 1992 contained the following elements: delineation of the Line of Control north of NJ 9842; redeployment of troops on both sides to agreed positions, but after demarcating their existing positions; a zone of disengagement subsequent to the redeployment, with both sides committing that they would not seek to intrude into this zone; a monitoring mechanism to maintain the peace in the ZoD.

Pakistan's proposal was as follows: Both sides would vacate their troops from the triangular area between Indira Col in the west, Karakoram Pass in the east and NJ 9842; troops on both sides would withdraw to a point south of NJ 9842, to the pre-1972 Simla Agreement positions; neither side shall attempt to alter the status of the demilitarised triangle pending delineation of the LoC north of NJ 9842 by a joint commission.

The refusal to authenticate ground positions and the reference to Karakoram Pass — a point well to the east of NJ9842 and a red rag to the Indians — led to an impasse. As a way out, the Pakistani side, led by its defence secretary, offered the following compromise: "The armed forces of the two sides shall vacate areas and re-deploy as indicated in the annexure. The positions vacated would not for either side constitute a basis for legal claim or justify a political or moral right to the area indicated".

Mr. Vohra said that by the time the talks concluded, an agreement had been reached which fully adhered to the Indian negotiating brief of troop positions being recorded one way or the other and that the Pakistani proposal that the LoC would run to the Karakoram Pass had been dropped. But the agreement was never signed.

In 2005, the two sides were once again said to be nearing agreement to demilitarize the region, but the deal fell through — Pakistan was no longer interested in demarcating the ground positions. After Pakistan's Kargil adventurism, such a demarcation became for the Indian side a non-negotiable, especially to the Indian Army, along with a mechanism to monitor any intrusions into a demilitarized zone in the Siachen region.

On Monday, the two countries will hold yet another round of talks on Siachen with no sign of a softening of attitudes on either side.

Check out the link for map:The Hindu : News / National : Siachen was almost a done deal in 1992

 

[rock127]

1000s of People die every day on indian roads in accidents then why is it only that only 26/11 Mumbai victims deserve candle-light vigil and human chains?why not those who die on roads?

Depicting pics of candles mourning for soldiers died in a natural disaster and trying to gain sympathy and idiotically comparing road accidents with planned terrorist attacks... your level is lower than I expected but good to know more post by post.

On topic...the recent is that India is going to stay on Siachin and Kashmir as well not to mention.If you have any guts then take it back

So go on with your ranting and crying as usual, we are getting entertained

 

[ajtr]

Video: Is India's position on Siachen unreasonable?
Published On: June 9, 2012 | Duration: 15 min, 22 sec

In just two days, the Defence Secretaries of India and Pakistan begin talks in Islamabad - a meeting where the Siachen dispute is expected to come up. Pakistan says the Siachen dispute can be resolved; not so quickly says India. We discuss if India's position on Siachen is untenable.

 

[ajtr]

1992 India, Pakistan drafts on Siachen
June 10, 2012

Text of draft Indian and Pakistani proposals on Siachen, November 1992:

Indian and Pakistani delegations headed by their respective Defence Secretaries met in New Delhi from November 2-6, 1992.

Indian draft (first) – 3rd Nov 1992

Consequent to discussions in the VI Round of Talks on the Siachen issue, both sides agreed to the following:

(i) Delineation of the Line of Control beyond NJ 9842: It was agreed that the immediate focus should be on restoring peace and tranquillity in the glacial region. Towards this end, without prejudice to the positions taken by either side in the earlier round of talks, both sides agreed that the LOC in this area shall be determined on a time bound basis.

(ii) Disengagement and Re-deployment: To secure enduring peace and tranquillity in this area both sides agreed to redeploy as follows:-

India: The Indian Army shall vacate their existing positions at "¦"¦.. and"¦"¦"¦"¦. and redeploy at "¦"¦"¦.

Pakistan: The Pak Army shall vacate their existing positions at "¦"¦"¦ and "¦"¦"¦ and redeploy at "¦"¦"¦"¦"¦

(iii) Zone of Disengagement: Consequent to disengagement from existing positions and redeployment to agreed positions, as noted in para (ii) above, both sides commit:

(a) that they shall not seek to re-occupy the positions vacated by them or to occupy the positions vacated by the other side or to occupy new positions across the alignment determined by the vacated positions.

(b) that they shall not undertake any military or mountaineering activity whatever in the Zone of Disengagement bounded as follows:

______________

______________

______________

(c) that if either side violates the Zone of Disengagement, the other side shall be free to respond through any means, including military.

(iv) Monitoring maintenance of peace in the Zone of Disengagement: Having committed themselves to maintain peace and tranquillity in the area comprising the Zone of Disengagement, both sides agree to the following monitoring measures to ensure against any violation of this zone:

(v) Implementation Schedule: In pursuance of their commitments in paras (i) to (iv) above, both sides agree to disengage and re-deploy as per the following schedule:

Pakistani Draft

Recognizing the need to bring to an end the enormous human and material losses being suffered by both countries in the Siachen area;

Noting that the Line of Control between the point NJ 9842 and the Karakoram Pass is yet to be delineated and that an understanding of the Siachen issue will eliminate an area of tension;

Considering that a settlement of the issue will constitute a major Confidence Building Measure;

Reiterating the desire to settle issues peacefully through negotiations in the letter and spirit of the Simla Agreement;

The two sides have agreed as follows:-

1) The area within the triangle Indira Koli - point NJ 9842 - Karakoram Pass will be vacated by the armed forces of the two sides.

2) The armed forces of the two sides will be re-deployed south of point NJ 9842 so as to conform with the Simla Agreement.

3) The modalities and time-frame of the re-deployment as well as the monitoring arrangements worked out by the military experts are annexed.

4) Neither side shall attempt to alter the status of the area within the triangle Indira Koli - point NJ 9842 - Karakoram Pass, pending delineation of the Line of Control.

5) A Joint Commission comprising experts from both sides will be set up in order to examine the question of delineation of the Line of Control. The Joint Commission shall commence work immediately after the completion of the re-deployment of forces and submit its report to the two governments within a period of six months thereafter.

Alternative para 1 & 2 (fall back position)

The armed forces of the two sides shall vacate areas and re-deploy as indicated in the annexure. The positions vacated would not for either side constitute a basis for a legal claim or justify a political or moral right to the area indicated. The delineation of the Line of Control from point NJ 9842 to the Karakoram Pass will form part of the comprehensive settlement to follow the re-deployment of troops.*

[* According to N.N. Vohra, then the Indian Defence Secretary, the Pakistani side dropped its reference to the Karakoram Pass]

 

[Bhadra]

1992 India, Pakistan drafts on Siachen
June 10, 2012

Pakistani Draft

Recognizing the need to bring to an end the enormous human and material losses being suffered by both countries in the Siachen area;

Noting that the Line of Control between the point NJ 9842 and the Karakoram Pass is yet to be delineated and that an understanding of the Siachen issue will eliminate an area of tension;

That is the crux of Pakistani devilish intention. From NJ 9842 to draw a line to Karakoram...
Achieve by pleading what they could not by waging so many years of military campaigns (war in other words)...
Naive, is not it ???????