RFP issued for India navy amphibious vessels (LHD or LPD type)

[Thrishul]

We need to have a Juan Carlos class LHD for the navy, which can act as a aircraft carrier like the outgoing Viraat which will add more CBG's in the Indian Navy. With the news of IAC being delayed and Viktamaditya under refit we will be out of a carrier protecting our sea lanes. We must plan for contingency's and have a multi purpose vessel like Juan Carlos class.

I agree with you, we need to get the Juan carlos and modify them to operate the LCA Navy.

 

[Thrishul]

DO we know the exact tonnage, is it closer to 30,000 tons or 40,000 tons for the LHD/LPD?

 

[SajeevJino]

DO we know the exact tonnage, is it closer to 30,000 tons or 40,000 tons for the LHD/LPD?

Less than 20,000 tons, don't go too much

 

[kstriya]

Less than 20,000 tons, don't go too much

INS Viraat is fitted with a 14° ski jump to operate the Sea Harrier, a reinforced flight deck, and 1.2 inches (3 cm) of armour over the magazines and machinery spaces. The magazine capacity includes at least 80 lightweight torpedoes. The vessel retains commando transport capability for up to 750 troops and carries four LCVP landing craft in the aft section.[8] In a wartime scenario, the ship can embark up to 26 combat aircraft and the ship is suited for supporting amphibious operations and conducting ASW operations.

INS Viraat (R22)
India
Class and type: Centaur-class aircraft carrier
Displacement: 23,900 tons standard 28,700 tons full load
Length: 226.5 m (743 ft)
Beam: 48.78 m (160.0 ft)

 

[kstriya]

This is an excerpt from an article : http://www.defensemedianetwork.com/...loy-aviation-ships-for-a-variety-of-missions/

"The US Navy has a significant number of “large deck amphibious,” used for expeditionary warfare. These LHD and LHA amphibious assault ships are larger and more capable than most of the Harrier carriers operated by the U.K., Italy, Spain, India, and Thailand. The current ESG (Expeditionary Strike Group), centered around an LHA or LHD, could deliver a limited forward-based strike capability to augment the Carrier Strike Groups. Even with 11 CVNs, the United States cannot stage a carrier everywhere it needs one.

Naval analyst and author Norman Polmar said there will continue to be a requirement for “sea-based tactical air” in the foreseeable future. But, he said, the composition of the air wing will change. The presence of substantial numbers of Tomahawk land-attack cruise missiles – which are able to accurately hit targets a thousand miles away – on surface combatants and submarines changes the calculus regarding how many strike aircraft are needed on board a CVN. He says the vertical take off V-22 Osprey and F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) variant of the Joint Strike Fighter can operate from smaller flight decks, such as amphibious assault ships, providing more aviation-capable platforms that can be in more places at the same time."

 

[Thrishul]

Less than 20,000 tons, don't go too much

For the RFI, in the current form they are less than 20,000 tons. Only the San Antonio and Juan Carlos are larger.

 

[kstriya]

Any update on the RFP for LHD/ LPD, are we contemplating an indigenous design based on IAC 1 experience or will it be Juan Carlos or mistral or American design? Later we can really debate the content of air wing it can have...

 

[Filtercoffee]

I hope it a non 'Axis' oriented vessel.

 

[Anupu]

Reliance, L&T in last leg to bag $2 billion defence deal

Reliance Defence and Engineering Limited (RDEL) and Larsen and Toubro are in the final stages to bag a $2 billion contract from the Defence Ministry next month for making amphibious fighting ships for the Navy, sources said.

Both have entered the final lap after ABG Shipyard failed to clear the capacity assessment test of the Defence Ministry.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) is likely to open bids in October for awarding four Landing Platform Dock (LPDs), each costing about $1 billion, and the only two private sector firms which cleared the financial and technical capability for this project are RDEL and L&T, the source close to the development said.

As per the terms of the deal, two LPDs contract will be awarded to a private sector player based upon technical capabilities and financial bids and the winning private sector firm would assist state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) to construct the remaining two.

That means (Mistral) DCNS which partnered with pipav (now RDEL) and (Juan Carlos) Navantia which partnered with L&T are the only two competitors.

 

[Adioz]

Reliance, L&T in last leg to bag $2 billion defence deal


That means (Mistral) DCNS which partnered with pipav (now RDEL) and (Juan Carlos) Navantia which partnered with L&T are the only two competitors.

IMHO DCNS will most probably not get the contract. Not after the kalvari-class fiasco. I think Juan Carlos is good enough. The Navy is not likely to go for a ski-jump, so they'll have to modify the flight deck.

And all those people who want LHDs to act as pocket carriers, its a bad idea. Here's why:-

• We do not have any jet to operate from such a small carrier.
• We do not need any jet to operate from such a small carrier.
• Operating jets from a small Juan Carlos will require a new plane to be designed and said plane will be very limited in its capabilities so it cannot supplant our dedicated carriers in role or mission.
• Operating jets from the LHD will reduce the capability of the ship to act as an LHD. The Navy chose the ship to perform a very particular role. There is no point in any thing if the ship does not fulfill its intended role.
• Navies are not all about aircraft carriers. Do not make this a prestige issue of who has how many carriers.
• LHD brings a new set of capabilities to the navy. Capabilities that we do not possess today. Rejoice in that fact.
• And DO NOT even mention F-35B

 

[kstriya]

IMHO DCNS will most probably not get the contract. Not after the kalvari-class fiasco. I think Juan Carlos is good enough. The Navy is not likely to go for a ski-jump, so they'll have to modify the flight deck.

And all those people who want LHDs to act as pocket carriers, its a bad idea. Here's why:-

• We do not have any jet to operate from such a small carrier.
• We do not need any jet to operate from such a small carrier.
• Operating jets from a small Juan Carlos will require a new plane to be designed and said plane will be very limited in its capabilities so it cannot supplant our dedicated carriers in role or mission.
• Operating jets from the LHD will reduce the capability of the ship to act as an LHD. The Navy chose the ship to perform a very particular role. There is no point in any thing if the ship does not fulfill its intended role.
• Navies are not all about aircraft carriers. Do not make this a prestige issue of who has how many carriers.
• LHD brings a new set of capabilities to the navy. Capabilities that we do not possess today. Rejoice in that fact.
• And DO NOT even mention F-35B

INS Vikrant AND VIRAAT WERE SMALL CARRIER'S, INS Viraat is fitted with a 14° ski jump to operate the Sea Harrier, a reinforced flight deck, and 1.2 inches (3 cm) of armour over the magazines and machinery spaces. The magazine capacity includes at least 80 lightweight torpedoes. The vessel retains commando transport capability for up to 750 troops and carries four LCVP landing craft in the aft section.[8] In a wartime scenario, the ship can embark up to 26 combat aircraft and the ship is suited for supporting amphibious operations and conducting ASW operations.

INS Viraat (R22)
India
Class and type: Centaur-class aircraft carrier
Displacement: 23,900 tons standard 28,700 tons full load
Length: 226.5 m (743 ft)
Beam: 48.78 m (160.0 ft)

That means Indian Navy did see a use of a vessel of such capabilities, its always better to have a multi purpose platform. Juan Carlos is what best suits this role.

 

[Adioz]

INS Vikrant AND VIRAAT WERE SMALL CARRIER'S, INS Viraat is fitted with a 14° ski jump to operate the Sea Harrier, a reinforced flight deck, and 1.2 inches (3 cm) of armour over the magazines and machinery spaces. The magazine capacity includes at least 80 lightweight torpedoes. The vessel retains commando transport capability for up to 750 troops and carries four LCVP landing craft in the aft section.[8] In a wartime scenario, the ship can embark up to 26 combat aircraft and the ship is suited for supporting amphibious operations and conducting ASW operations.

INS Viraat (R22)
India
Class and type: Centaur-class aircraft carrier
Displacement: 23,900 tons standard 28,700 tons full load
Length: 226.5 m (743 ft)
Beam: 48.78 m (160.0 ft)

That means Indian Navy did see a use of a vessel of such capabilities, its always better to have a multi purpose platform. Juan Carlos is what best suits this role.

And what aircraft do you suggest we park on the flight deck?

 

[kstriya]

And what aircraft do you suggest we park on the flight deck?

NLCA a modified version, If we could get the Kaveri on it with a TV being developed with Russian assistance. Then this would be the best platform or aircraft. We should hope if the Rafale is bought we get TOT on jet engine from Saffran and complete the Kaveri only then we will be able to use TV being developed. F35 is not an option as they are too costly. We can get the Juan Carlos with the capability to operate fighters when NLCA is ready we can have them on it based on mission or else not required to be stationed on the vessels.

A multi purpose vessel will help project power in different places simultaneously.

 

[Adioz]

NLCA a modified version, If we could get the Kaveri on it with a TV being developed with Russian assistance. Then this would be the best platform or aircraft. We should hope if the Rafale is bought we get TOT on jet engine from Saffran and complete the Kaveri only then we will be able to use TV being developed. F35 is not an option as they are too costly. We can get the Juan Carlos with the capability to operate fighters when NLCA is ready we can have them on it based on mission or else not required to be stationed on the vessels.

A multi purpose vessel will help project power in different places simultaneously.

LCA naval has a take-off run of 200m.
Juan Carlos has deck of length 202m.
Where in the extremely thin margin of 2m will you place arrestor wires?

And what do you mean by "project power"? The LHD will only have space for 4 Tejas. What power projection will they do? They'll barely be able to defend a fleet. And you want this ship to supplant a vikrant class carrier? Don't make me laugh.

At least read the previous posts

• Operating jets from the LHD will reduce the capability of the ship to act as an LHD. The Navy chose the ship to perform a very particular role. There is no point in any thing if the ship does not fulfill its intended role.
• Navies are not all about aircraft carriers. Do not make this a prestige issue of who has how many carriers.
• LHD brings a new set of capabilities to the navy. Capabilities that we do not possess today. Rejoice in that fact.

We do not need more than 3 aircraft carriers. We need just one carrier group operational on either side of our country at one time.
If you are referring to how America deploys its Amphibious fleet with jets onboard LHAs:-

1. Compare the size of an LHA with our LHDs.
2. Understand that USA does that because it wants to have a global presence.

 

[kstriya]

LCA naval has a take-off run of 200m.
Juan Carlos has deck of length 202m.
Where in the extremely thin margin of 2m will you place arrestor wires?

And what do you mean by "project power"? The LHD will only have space for 4 Tejas. What power projection will they do? They'll barely be able to defend a fleet. And you want this ship to supplant a vikrant class carrier? Don't make me laugh.

At least read the previous posts


We do not need more than 3 aircraft carriers. We need just one carrier group operational on either side of our country at one time.
If you are referring to how America deploys its Amphibious fleet with jets onboard LHAs:-

1. Compare the size of an LHA with our LHDs.
2. Understand that USA does that because it wants to have a global presence.

INS Viraat :
Displacement:

• 23,900 tons standard
• 28,700 tons full load

Length: 226.5 m (743 ft)
Beam: 48.78 m (160.0 ft)

Second-generation Harriers
The Harrier was extensively redeveloped by McDonnell Douglas and British Aerospace (now parts of Boeing and BAE Systems, respectively), leading to the Boeing/BAE Systems AV-8B Harrier II.[2] This is a family of second-generation V/STOL jet multi-role aircraft, including the British Aerospace-built (with McDonnell Douglas as subcontractor) Harrier II GR5/GR7/GR9, which entered service in the mid-1980s. The AV-8B is primarily used for light attack or multi-role tasks, typically operated from small aircraft carriers

Operation
The Harrier Jump Jet, capable of taking off vertically, can only do so at less than its maximum loaded weight. In most cases, a short take off is performed, using forward speed to achieve aerodynamic lift, which uses fuel more economically than a vertical take off. On aircraft carriers, a ski-jump ramp is employed at the bow of the carrier to assist the aircraft in becoming airborne.

Landings are typically performed very differently. Although a conventional landing is possible, the range of speeds at which this can be done is narrow due to relatively vulnerable outrigger undercarriage. Operationally, a near-vertical landing with some forward speed is preferred.

The LHD/ LPD will be designed as Indian Navy requirements, if Juan Carlos length is 202 meters now then as per Indian navy it will be redesigned to be more than 230 meters to make it Indian specific if we need to buy as it is design better we buy off shelf as we will have no add on or customization. As I said earlier NLCA will be needed to go under certain modification and will be primarily used for light attack or multi-role tasks, typically operated from small aircraft carriers.

The new italian LHA... is the first of 3 new italian amphibius ships... 1 LHA + 2 LHD (the LHDs are similar, but short, long around 200 meters, the LHA is 244 meters long). Construction starts in 2017 and the entry into service is scheduled in 2021
Dimension: 244 x 36 meters (30,000 tons), fly deck 230 x 36 meters, 2 external elevators 15x12 (max 40 tons)
Speed 25+ knots, Crew: 460 + 604 troops
Hangar 2200 m2 (max 40 tons), flush+garage 1750 m2, 1600 linear meters for veichles up 62 tons, fly deck 2700 m2 (max 40 tons).
32 VLS Sylver 50 for ASTER 15/30, tripack/quadpack CAMM-ER/CAMM AA missiles.
Long range rotaing EW radar AESA (500+ km), 4 fixed faces MFRA AESA radar in X e C bands with OTH.
3 OTO-Melara 76mm SR Strales/Vulcano as naval/CIWS gun.
3 remote KBA 25mm postations.
Active hull sonar + passive towed array sonar per ASW protection
Antitorpedo sistem with decoy and launchers for light torpedo.
10 F-35B + 12 medium helos (or 24 medium helos) with 9 spots, 2 milions liter JP-5 (aviation fuel).

40000 tons is specified in Naval RFP, not my wishlist. I too don't understand the rationale behind it.

The Indian Navy plans to build and induct four Landing Helicopter Docks (LHD) as multirole vessels. These ships would have a length between 200 meters and 230 meters and a gross tonnage of 40,000 tons. This makes this class of vessels slightly smaller than INS Vikramaditya at 45,500 tons and the new INS Vikrant at 40,000 tons. These LHD’s are actually a lot larger than the old carriers INS Vikrant and INS Viraat. INS Vikrant weighed in at 19,500 tons with a length of 213 meters while INS Viraat weighed in at 28,700 tons with a length of 226.5 meters. The LHD’s will have a well dock for amphibious operations

 

[Adioz]

INS Viraat :
Displacement:

• 23,900 tons standard
• 28,700 tons full load

Length: 226.5 m (743 ft)
Beam: 48.78 m (160.0 ft)

Second-generation Harriers
The Harrier was extensively redeveloped by McDonnell Douglas and British Aerospace (now parts of Boeing and BAE Systems, respectively), leading to the Boeing/BAE Systems AV-8B Harrier II.[2] This is a family of second-generation V/STOL jet multi-role aircraft, including the British Aerospace-built (with McDonnell Douglas as subcontractor) Harrier II GR5/GR7/GR9, which entered service in the mid-1980s. The AV-8B is primarily used for light attack or multi-role tasks, typically operated from small aircraft carriers

Operation
The Harrier Jump Jet, capable of taking off vertically, can only do so at less than its maximum loaded weight. In most cases, a short take off is performed, using forward speed to achieve aerodynamic lift, which uses fuel more economically than a vertical take off. On aircraft carriers, a ski-jump ramp is employed at the bow of the carrier to assist the aircraft in becoming airborne.

Landings are typically performed very differently. Although a conventional landing is possible, the range of speeds at which this can be done is narrow due to relatively vulnerable outrigger undercarriage. Operationally, a near-vertical landing with some forward speed is preferred.

The LHD/ LPD will be designed as Indian Navy requirements, if Juan Carlos length is 202 meters now then as per Indian navy it will be redesigned to be more than 230 meters to make it Indian specific if we need to buy as it is design better we buy off shelf as we will have no add on or customization. As I said earlier NLCA will be needed to go under certain modification and will be primarily used for light attack or multi-role tasks, typically operated from small aircraft carriers.

The new italian LHA... is the first of 3 new italian amphibius ships... 1 LHA + 2 LHD (the LHDs are similar, but short, long around 200 meters, the LHA is 244 meters long). Construction starts in 2017 and the entry into service is scheduled in 2021
Dimension: 244 x 36 meters (30,000 tons), fly deck 230 x 36 meters, 2 external elevators 15x12 (max 40 tons)
Speed 25+ knots, Crew: 460 + 604 troops
Hangar 2200 m2 (max 40 tons), flush+garage 1750 m2, 1600 linear meters for veichles up 62 tons, fly deck 2700 m2 (max 40 tons).
32 VLS Sylver 50 for ASTER 15/30, tripack/quadpack CAMM-ER/CAMM AA missiles.
Long range rotaing EW radar AESA (500+ km), 4 fixed faces MFRA AESA radar in X e C bands with OTH.
3 OTO-Melara 76mm SR Strales/Vulcano as naval/CIWS gun.
3 remote KBA 25mm postations.
Active hull sonar + passive towed array sonar per ASW protection
Antitorpedo sistem with decoy and launchers for light torpedo.
10 F-35B + 12 medium helos (or 24 medium helos) with 9 spots, 2 milions liter JP-5 (aviation fuel).

40000 tons is specified in Naval RFP, not my wishlist. I too don't understand the rationale behind it.

The Indian Navy plans to build and induct four Landing Helicopter Docks (LHD) as multirole vessels. These ships would have a length between 200 meters and 230 meters and a gross tonnage of 40,000 tons. This makes this class of vessels slightly smaller than INS Vikramaditya at 45,500 tons and the new INS Vikrant at 40,000 tons. These LHD’s are actually a lot larger than the old carriers INS Vikrant and INS Viraat. INS Vikrant weighed in at 19,500 tons with a length of 213 meters while INS Viraat weighed in at 28,700 tons with a length of 226.5 meters. The LHD’s will have a well dock for amphibious operations

• Where is it written in the naval RFI that the tonnage is 40000?
  
  The only dimensions I see are the approximation of length ~200 m and a maximum draught of 8 m. No mention of tonnage anywhere in the document. Can you have a vessel with a length of ~200 m and a tonnage of 40000? Ask a shipwright if this is possible. He'll answer you with a whack to your head.
• INS Viraat and Harrier jump jets are obsolete. Stop mentioning them in every post. They have been replaced in the Indian Navy by far more capable carriers and their air wings. Harriers and INS Viraat is unrelated to the LHD topic.
• Look at the design of Juan Carlos. The aircraft elevator is to the rear. Including arrestor wires would require increasing length to 250 m. Try asking a shipwright if that is an easy task. How much extra would that cost? All to field a single flight of Tejas even though we have far more powerful carriers in service?

• • Operating jets from the LHD will reduce the capability of the ship to act as an LHD. The Navy chose the ship to perform a very particular role. There is no point in any thing if the ship does not fulfill its intended role.

  • Navies are not all about aircraft carriers. Do not make this a prestige issue of who has how many carriers.

  • LHD brings a new set of capabilities to the navy. Capabilities that we do not possess today. Rejoice in that fact.

• We do not need more than 3 aircraft carriers. We need just one carrier group operational on either side of our country at one time.
  If you are referring to how America deploys its Amphibious fleet with jets onboard LHAs:-
  

  1. Compare the size of an LHA with our LHDs.
  2. Understand that USA does that because it wants to have a global presence.

• Why are you so fixated on small carriers with a fraction of the capabilities that our fleet carriers possess? You mention Italian Navy. They created Juan Carlos with a ski jump because they have no large carrier. The ship suits their needs as they are acquiring a STOVL aircraft (F-35B) to operate from its decks. We have STOBAR carriers. We do not need more fighter cover. However, we do need more heavy rotor-craft. That capability void will be filled by the LHDs.

If I have to quote my own self over and over again, it means that you are not reading my posts properly and just trolling around. Make me quote myself once again and I will not reply at all.

 

[Prashant12]

Indian Naval LPD Program Making Headway With 2 Domestic Vendors

NEW DELHI — The Indian Navy may as early as this month begin the commercial bidding process for its $2.6 billion program to build four 20,000-ton landing platform docks (LPD), following the final selection of two domestic vendors.

Only Reliance Defence and Engineering Limited (RDEL) — formerly known as Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering — and private sector business Larsen & Toubro (L&T) cleared the financial and technical tests from September. A third vendor, ABG Shipyard, which has a technical relationship with Alion of the United States, could not clear the tests because it failed to restructure its debts, a senior Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) official said.

L&T has a tie-up with Navantia of Spain, and RDEL with DCNS of France.

No ABG Shipyard executive would comment on the outcome of the Indian Navy's routine technical and financial tests.

The Navy floated the tender in 2013 for production of four LPDs, and bids were sent to domestic shipyards, L&T, RDEL, and ABG Shipyard.

Under the program, two LPDs will be built by a private shipyard, and then state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Limited will build the remaining two LPDs at the same cost.

"Indian Navy requires LPDs not only protecting its island territories and the exclusive economic zone but also to thwart growing Chinese influence in the Indian Ocean littoral region," an Indian Navy official said. "The aggressive posturing of the Chinese Navy in the South China Sea and Indian Ocean Region has made is necessary to beef up [the Indian Navy's] strength in the Indian Ocean region."

The Indian Navy currently operates one LPD, the former US-owned, Austin-class LPD Trenton, which was acquired by India in 1997 and renamed INS Jalashwa.

Commenting on the capability of the domestic shipyards that will build the LPDs, the Indian Navy official said: "RDEL has no past experience in building large warships, including LPDs. However, as far as L&T Limited [is] concerned, they['ve] been building the commercial ships of equivalent tonnage, thus there is sufficient in-house capability to build ships of equivalent displacements."

Though the two domestic shipyards don't have experience building LPDs, the overseas shipyards, which have technical relationships with domestic shipyards, will help with technology transfers for the LPDs, according to the MoD official.
The Navy requires that the ships be no more than 215 meters long and have a draft no more than 8 meters in full load conditions. The ships will be powered by electric propulsion systems, have an endurance of 45 days with a maximum sustained speed of no less than 20 knots, and have the capability to carry six main battle tanks, 20 infantry combat vehicles and 40 heavy trucks.

The LPDs will also be equipped with a point defense missile system, a close-in weapon system, an anti-torpedo decoy system, a chaff system, and heavy and light machine guns. Special operation helicopters and large helicopters, weighing up to 35 tons, will operate from the ship.

Each ship is also expected to accommodate 1,430 personnel, including 60 officers, 470 sailors and 900 troops.

The 20,000-ton LPD would be the largest warship to be built in an Indian yard after the aircraft carrier under construction at state-owned Cochin Shipyard.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/indian-naval-lpd-program-making-headway-with-2-domestic-vendors

 

[rohit b3]

We already know which Shipyard its gonna be - Modi's Reliance and highest kickback givers France

 

[Anupu]

We already know which Shipyard its gonna be - Modi's Reliance and highest kickback givers France

Nope I think it's going to be L&T......................

 

[ezsasa]

We already know which Shipyard its gonna be - Modi's Reliance and highest kickback givers France

Anil Ambani is selling companies left & right, even today he is getting 11k crore upfront cash by selling his cell phone towers business.

That ensures he now has a lot of liquidity in his pocket, that would mean he has the the margins for bidding the least.

But i think who ever is partnering with DCNS has more chances of winning the project.