Poor Quality Manufacturing

[Shaitan]

Re: Trichy Assault Rifle

The finish on this looks terrible.

 

[ghost]

Re: Trichy Assault Rifle

The finish on this looks terrible.

this is the gold standard when it comes to OFB how could you use such a language

 

[ghost]

Re: Trichy Assault Rifle

PLUS

EQUALS to ofb original and years of hard work and innovative thinking resul

To be fair among all other ofb have built i love this design only second to excalibure.But it seem to be late by 15years it does not look like something you would be walking into future.

I wish they would have used aluminum receiver ,a better stock something like this

 

[Shaitan]

Re: Trichy Assault Rifle

@ghost

All that thing is, is a really shitty converted FAL.

Even some US consumers convert it.

OFBs looks like shit.


OFB was ranked 47th by defence revenue, ahead of companies like Rafael, etc. and have been locally producing so many crap for decades, but nothing to show.. Do these guys even spend anything on R&D?.

The SIPRI Top 100 arms-producing and military services companies in the world excluding China, 2012 — www.sipri.org

 

[SajeevJino]

India Opens Ordnance Factory Overhaul to Overseas Firms​

Amid India's quest to modernize its deteriorating state-owned ordnance factories, it is seeking help from overseas companies — a move that's putting domestic defense companies on notice.

The modernization program, which was approved last month and slated to begin in April, will involve all of India's 41 state-owned ordnance factories and will cost more than US $2.5 billion, according to a source in the Indian Defence Ministry.

The five-year modernization program is expected to create stiff competition with domestic private-sector companies, forcing them to review their strategy in tapping a weapons market valued at more than $150 billion in the next 10 years, analysts said.

So far, BAE Systems has offered to modernize the ordnance factories, which are administered by the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). A source in the Defence Ministry said BAE presented its modernization plan to senior OFB officials last month.

A BAE executive here said themodernization plan will help increase productivity and reduce manufacturing waste. He gave no details.

An OFB official said that while the organization is seeking help from overseas firms, no formal agreement has been reached so far. The official said the OFB is evaluating BAE's offer.

The five-year plan to modernize OFB factories includes the replacement of old machinery at a cost of more than $1.5 billion, and another $1.5 billion will be spent on modern production gear.

More than 50 percent of India's state-owned ordnance factories need replacements of either the plants or their machinery, and nearly 16 of them were operational during World War II, providing the allies with arms and ammunition.

An Indian Army official said the majority of the products manufactured by OFB are second generation and often substandard.

The ordnance factories produce the Russian-designed T-72, T-90 and homemade Arjun tanks, along with armored personnel carriers, mine-protected and bulletproof vehicles, artillery, naval guns, night vision devices, fire control systems for armored vehicles, small arms and many varieties of ammunition.

The factories mainly produce non-high-tech arms and equipment based on technology and drawings provided by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), an OFB official said.

"In such an environment, the ordnance factories had no appreciable role in the pre- and postproduction functions," the OFB official added, saying the factories would benefit from greater participation in preproduction, including the design and development of weapons.

Besides DRDO, Russia continues to be the largest supplier of defense technology to the factories, but new sources need to be sought, the official added.

The OFB has a spotty history when it comes to striking deals with overseas firms.

In 2012, OFB signed a joint venture with Rosoboronexport and Splav SPA of Russia to manufacture five types of Smerch munitions in a new facility inside an existing factory, but the facility has yet to be built.

Three years earlier, Israel Military Industries (IMI) signed a $240 million agreement with India to build five artillery munitions factories for OFB. However, IMI was later blacklisted for allegedly using bribes to win the contract with OFB.

The MoD has been critical of OFB delays. The MoD source said OFB was late in delivering jackets, boots and parachutes worth more than $200 million, and the Army had to resort to imports.

OFB, with more than 100,000 employees, has annual sales of only $2 billion.

Last year, an inquiry found that faulty OFB-supplied ammunition led to the bursting of the barrel of a 155mm/45-caliber gun being upgraded by one of the factories, the MoD source said.

The aggressive plan to modernize OFB factories comes at a time when India's private defense companies are putting up facilities to tap the market.

"The private-sector defense companies will have to redraw their plan if OFB factories modernize with the help of major overseas defense companies, as these factories could pose a major competition to the emerging private-sector defense companies," said retired Maj. Gen. Mahindra Singh.

However, a senior executive with privately owned Larsen & Toubro said private defense companies have invested more than $6 billion in setting up production facilities. He further noted that OFB's modernization will not limit private-sector defense orders, and there is enough room for everyone to win a slice of the defense market.

India Opens Ordnance Factory Overhaul to Overseas Firms | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[ALBY]

Re: INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

Guns made by the local gun smiths in US are way better than the state owned OFB's innovation and hard work.Just visit AR15.COM or AK forums to find the stuff.
And the AK7 made by OFB was short lives not because of any objections from kalashnikov but the quality of it was very substandard and army didn't approved .Instead of altering a FN fal OFB could have gone for manufacture of bulgarian AK clones by importing thee machinery from there.It could have saved time annd could have guaranteed some quality.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It is true, But i wont be so sure across the ' whole ' board, There are various companies like havelles and other provide good and even better product than foreign companies ..

Poor quality of manufacturing is not limited to just the defence sector. Across the board something as basic as hand tools, you will find better quality and finish of imported products. Even the cheap Chinese ones are better.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Those who are criticizing OFB, Read the first page of this thread ..

There factories were completely ignored until now, Some of them dated back 1800s ..

 

[ghost]

Alby and Shaitan I agree to what you have said.

When i think of OFB This picture come to my mind

Where as modern world has moved on to this

And those who say that lack of quality is because of government mishandling of OFB maybe but then who stopped then from innovation bringing fresh ideas.The main problem i see is that they have developed the mentality which most of the government department suffer and that is you do excellent job or you do not do ur job at all you would be treated in same manner and at the end of the month would get ur salary.

Since they do not care for competition or lack of work hence this quality .These are the same OFB people who are now performing "dharna" and organising "protest" since government is planning to shut them off as we are moving to mcar .I would have been glad if the very same OFB guys in the past have performed " dharna " for up gradation of their factories

And those who say that it is because of the condition of OFB factories should see the guns made by pakistani gun smith in khyber which are making them in just their home backyard

On top of it these OFB guys never fail of boasting and blowing hot air ballon "The OFB chairman said that the Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle would be the best in the class and become the next generation gun of the foot soldier."Press Information Bureau English Releases and this was way back in 2008 .My guess is that the rifle was so awesome that alien came and steal the technology as it was not worth of earth.

Now to put in simple terms if you have government monopoly without competition you are bound to have this

You throw in the competition and make them work for their money you get

 

[ALBY]

Alby and Shaitan I agree to what you have said.

When i think of OFB This picture come to my mind

Where as modern world has moved on to this

And those who say that lack of quality is because of government mishandling of OFB maybe but then who stopped then from innovation bringing fresh ideas.The main problem i see is that they have developed the mentality which most of the government department suffer and that is you do excellent job or you do not do ur job at all you would be treated in same manner and at the end of the month would get ur salary.

Since they do not care for competition or lack of work hence this quality .These are the same OFB people who are now performing "dharna" and organising "protest" since government is planning to shut them off as we are moving to mcar .I would have been glad if the very same OFB guys in the past have performed " dharna " for up gradation of their factories

And those who say that it is because of the condition of OFB factories should see the guns made by pakistani gun smith in khyber which are making them in just their home backyard

On top of it these OFB guys never fail of boasting and blowing hot air ballon "The OFB chairman said that the Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle would be the best in the class and become the next generation gun of the foot soldier."Press Information Bureau English Releases and this was way back in 2008 .My guess is that the rifle was so awesome that alien came and steal the technology as it was not worth of earth.

Now to put in simple terms if you have government monopoly without competition you are bound to have this

You throw in the competition and make them work for their money you get

A gunsmith in Darra needs just 10 days at the maximum to master the manuacturing of a new gun design.And most of the factories use primitive equipment too.Though large players may have modern equipment.And they are not just making xerox copies but they try to modify the weapons also.
Here in India after gettingg crores and crores of rupees then also we produces equipments which are always a decade older in design comppared to our Eastern or western counter parts and boasts highly of their efficiency.
The one thing Govt could do is the true abolishing of license Raj in weapon industry.

 

[ghost]

Look at these jokers.

I think instead of doing this privatization of defence sector regulated by government should be done just like America .
Main reason why i emphasize on privatization is because privatization brings in the competition and since the companies are always for profit they will always try to out do each other thus by bringing in much better product and lower cost hence as a state we would benefit from it.And by regulation government can easily control them just like in America and Isareil .

Privatization will increase the output ,better quality,lower prices due to competition and would increase innovation as per company would have to come up with new products to maintain their hold in the market not only india but abroad.
Just take the case of lsv how mahindra tata and ashok leyland and trying to out do each other . .

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Why you hate so much on those who are doing something ..

Read this blog : save ordnance factories

Look at these jokers.

India Opens Ordnance Factory Overhaul to Overseas Firms | Defense News | defensenews.com

Now that they see private players wanting to be lead manufacturers, like with the example of new TATA vehicles, Kalyanis artillery, etc. They want to invest in modernizing their facilities.

This should've happened 10+ years ago. But they sense the urgency because they see the TATAs, L&Ts, Mahindras, Kalyanis, etc. putting billions into making their own factories, seeing them buy foreign companies, working with foreign companies and now DRDO! They know damn well that the L&Ts will eventually shallow them whole given the same amount of time and level playing field.

That example of Hindustan Ambassador is a perfect example of why the status quo has to change.

 

[Kyubi]

I think instead of doing this privatization of defence sector regulated by government should be done just like America .
Main reason why i emphasize on privatization is because privatization brings in the competition and since the companies are always for profit they will always try to out do each other thus by bringing in much better product and lower cost hence as a state we would benefit from it.And by regulation government can easily control them just like in America and Isareil .

Privatization will increase the output ,better quality,lower prices due to competition and would increase innovation as per company would have to come up with new products to maintain their hold in the market not only india but abroad.
Just take the case of lsv how mahindra tata and ashok leyland and trying to out do each other . .

Private companies entering the defense industry is a welcome boon, there inclusion will bring about competition, but the fact of the matter is we cannot and should not lease out or privatise govt firms as they can be instruments to compromise the political structure in our country, it wont necessarily result all round inclusive growth it would only give rise to selective growth i.e, bipartisan interest of the ruling party and these pvt entities for personal growth, ambition, annexation of states resources , intervention into matters of the external affairs etc... These are the issues which will plague in future fi we privatise govt institutions of national importance.

The way forward is to elevate the working culture in govt owned entities to the level of pvt entities. Nepotism, Reservation, Non-Performers, Corruption etc these are the things that needs to be severly dealt with if needed removed in the scheme of things. This will bring about the much needed growth, job satisfaction, urge to compete etc..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Then we must buy out darra, To manufacture next generation Multi cal Rifle..

You know, We get lots of these Guns at our borders and we dispose them, Why ? because there quality is so nice that after 100rnds they explode ..

Where your head is heading now days ?

A gunsmith in Darra needs just 10 days at the maximum to master the manuacturing of a new gun design.And most of the factories use primitive equipment too.

Here in India after gettingg crores and crores of rupees then also we produces equipments which are always a decade older in design comppared to our .

=================

How dare you say something abt ' Sweet ' HM Ambassador, Its a heavy duty car, So rugged and better in comfort than riding in Merc or BMW ..

You check specs, And ride it other wise keep quite ..

Now to put in simple terms if you have government monopoly without competition you are bound to have this

You throw in the competition and make them work for their money you get

 

[ghost]

Private companies entering the defense industry is a welcome boon, there inclusion will bring about competition, but the fact of the matter is we cannot and should not lease out or privatise govt firms as they can be instruments to compromise the political structure in our country, it wont necessarily result all round inclusive growth it would only give rise to selective growth i.e, bipartisan interest of the ruling party and these pvt entities for personal growth, ambition, annexation of states resources , intervention into matters of the external affairs etc... These are the issues which will plague in future fi we privatise govt institutions of national importance.

The way forward is to elevate the working culture in govt owned entities to the level of pvt entities. Nepotism, Reservation, Non-Performers, Corruption etc these are the things that needs to be severly dealt with if needed removed in the scheme of things. This will bring about the much needed growth, job satisfaction, urge to compete etc..

What you are saying is good if done but i would still prefer privatization one thing which can be done is that we can open up defence sector for all private companies while also maintaining ofb and let them openly compete head to head for anrmy tenders without any favorism or added advantage to state own OFB .

To sum it up what Alby has said "end of license raaj" to give you example have you seen what has happened in banking,telephone and automobile sector after government had lift up the license raaj and allowed private players to compete the modern India you see is as a result of that.
We still have gov banks ,phone company and had maruti uptill sometime back.Not to forget airlines now you can clearly see where the gov owned companies stand in front of private companies in following sector.

See due to private companies we develop the tendency of "survival of the fittest" which in turn result in evolve or get destroyed .Hence privatization is the way to go."DELIVER OR GO HOME"

This is the biggest joke the increase amount of earning is shown as if how efficiently they have worked to rise in earning .Where as in reality due to ofb monopoly everything go their way as in name of indignation or armed forces are forced to make way with them.Even in case a foregin company wins a tender the government transfer the work to OFB.

"It is just like winning a race in which you are the one and only runner"

 

[Shaitan]

This is the biggest joke the increase amount of earning is shown as if how efficiently they have worked to rise in earning .Where as in reality due to ofb monopoly everything go their way as in name of indignation or armed forces are forced to make way with them.Even in case a foregin company wins a tender the government transfer the work to OFB.

"It is just like winning a race in which you are the one and only runner"

Exactly..............

 

[ghost]

Then we must buy out darra, To manufacture next generation Multi cal Rifle..

You know, We get lots of these Guns at our borders and we dispose them, Why ? because there quality is so nice that after 100rnds they explode ..

Where your head is heading now days ?



=================

How dare you say something abt ' Sweet ' HM Ambassador, Its a heavy duty car, So rugged and better in comfort than riding in Merc or BMW ..

You check specs, And ride it other wise keep quite ..

Do you have any personal problem with me if you do then keep it to urself .I do not appreciate ur language so better correct it or ban me i don't care.
You are back again to ur ways you are senior here you have ur knowledge and I respect that but i respect myself too so i can't take this ######## .I hope u understand .You delete my post without any genuine reason when i have just tried to give example to prove my point and you delete it "Was just showing that how a person in his garage can produce good stuff so how it not right to say that factory condition of OFB is responsible for their work it is only one thing that is lack of "pride".

Regarding ambassador and Xuv i have sat in ambassador but not in XUV but my friends have so i know where it stands like all of us with sane mind know.But i do not want to indulge you cause i don't like behavior .I have my opinion as you and others would have their own .I am not even saying that i am always right i maybe wrong or yo may be wrong each to his own now where does it gives you the right to tell me to keep quite .Over and Out delete this ban me do whatever you like i don't care.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I cannot take you or anyone that serious over internet,

Now lets see abt topic, because you are comparing a first world nation`s civil firearm to a third world Government Military firearm, See that, Now i dont need to give you some reasons for that ..

You dont have a clue what its feel like to travel in a Staff ambassador and traveling in a same in a Staff Indigo ( Tata ) or Xuv in civil, Having driven all three, i can tell you you are just making your opinion based on Civil experience .. FACT

=================

I cannot help you if you dont like my behavior & I will ban, Delete or like your post based upon your behavior ..

Do you have any personal problem with me if you do then keep it to urself .I do not appreciate ur language so better correct it or ban me i don't care.You are back again to ur ways you are senior here you have ur knowledge and I respect that but i respect myself too so i can't take this ######## .I hope u understand .

You delete my post without any genuine reason when i have just tried to give example to prove my point and you delete it "Was just showing that how a person in his garage can produce good stuff so how it not right to say that factory condition of OFB is responsible for their work it is only one thing that is lack of "pride".

Regarding ambassador and Xuv i have sat in ambassador but not in XUV but my friends have so i know where it stands like all of us with sane mind know.But i do not want to indulge you cause i don't like behavior .I have my opinion as you and others would have their own .I am not even saying that i am always right i maybe wrong or yo may be wrong each to his own now where does it gives you the right to tell me to keep quite .Over and Out delete this ban me do whatever you like i don't care.

 

[Kyubi]

What you are saying is good if done but i would still prefer privatization one thing which can be done is that we can open up defence sector for all private companies while also maintaining ofb and let them openly compete head to head for anrmy tenders without any favorism or added advantage to state own OFB .

This is the biggest joke the increase amount of earning is shown as if how efficiently they have worked to rise in earning .Where as in reality due to ofb monopoly everything go their way as in name of indignation or armed forces are forced to make way with them.Even in case a foregin company wins a tender the government transfer the work to OFB.

"It is just like winning a race in which you are the one and only runner"

I am in conformity with what your implying, yes we do need to open up our market in the case of OFB i would suggest them to not waste time and take up the offer of BAE to modernize their units all across India, at the same time involve local companies to supply the necessary materials to them in order to shore up their businesses.

Apart from this we also need to address the more deeply rooted culture of inefficiency, reluctance of technical staff on modernization, refusal to train, dereliction of duties etc. The Govt owned entities are experiencing a catharsis of insipidness, incompetence.. which will be very detrimental for the country and its people, the govt needs to address these concerns or else the day isn't far when we have to even pay for the air we breathe cause govt has made the pvt entities own our atmosphere !!!!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I really hoped if this world would be so simple as elaborated below ..

To sum it up what Alby has said "end of license raaj" to give you example have you seen what has happened in banking,telephone and automobile sector after government had lift up the license raaj and allowed private players to compete the modern India you see is as a result of that.We still have gov banks ,phone company and had maruti uptill sometime back.Not to forget airlines now you can clearly see where the gov owned companies stand in front of private companies in following sector.

See due to private companies we develop the tendency of "survival of the fittest" which in turn result in evolve or get destroyed .Hence privatization is the way to go."DELIVER OR GO HOME"

This is the biggest joke the increase amount of earning is shown as if how efficiently they have worked to rise in earning .Where as in reality due to ofb monopoly everything go their way as in name of indignation or armed forces are forced to make way with them.Even in case a foregin company wins a tender the government transfer the work to OFB.

"It is just like winning a race in which you are the one and only runner"