Pakistan defers purchase of J10B Fighters

A.V.

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i just came across this interesting statement delivered onfeb 15 by top PAF official shows clearly

1> that PAF is still to decide on the J-10B and they are unsure of their capabilities.

2>the 36 order that they were talking about and already in pipeline was not j-10B but basic J-10A<FC-20> which is considered far inferior

3> china would provide a cut down version of the fighter or refused to lend money

ALL SANE MINDS TAKE YOUR PICK clap


http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php?id=158809

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has deferred the purchase of state of the art fighter J-10 planes from China till test flights.

Defence sources told Online Monday Pakistan Air Force (PAF) was taking interest in acquisition of state of the art J-10 fighter planes from China. Air Chief Marshall, Rao Qamar Suleman however during his briefing to the members of senate committee on defence told no formal decision had been taken so far to purchase these planes. “We are reviewing the matter. Until these planes are inducted in Chinese air fleet and they meet their targets and objectives during test flights then PAF will decide to purchase them that upto what extent these planes can prove productive for PAF ”, he remarked.

Sources told PAF was facing lack of funds problem in the wake of tough economic situation. Therefore, PAF was completing its ongoing projects and these would be completed in time. However a clear decision with reference to J-10 planes would be made after their induction in Chinese air fleet and their performance in test flights.
 

gogbot

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They have no other option, What else are they going to get
 

p2prada

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They always have the option of going for some more F-16s.
 

ISI

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Other options are there for example F-16s ,Typphoon,rafayle or F-18 as all of them are offered to us.
And we are looking for J10B or FC-20 not J-10 as if we needed the J10s we would have gotten then in 2005..
There are also plans suggesting PAF may buy around 150 FC-20s with TOT as it was stated by Pak defence minister on the inaugration of JF-17s production facility.
 
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Other options are there for example F-16s ,Typphoon,rafayle or F-18 as all of them are offered to us.

yes but these don't come with a soft loan option so you can scratch them off.
 

ISI

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Other options are there for example F-16s ,Typphoon,rafayle or F-18 as all of them are offered to us.

yes but these don't come with a soft loan option so you can scratch them off.
Thts a good reason but stioll we can afford half of 150 tht chinese are offering us on soft loans.
 

Armand2REP

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Other options are there for example F-16s ,Typphoon,rafayle or F-18 as all of them are offered to us.
And we are looking for J10B or FC-20 not J-10 as if we needed the J10s we would have gotten then in 2005..
There are also plans suggesting PAF may buy around 150 FC-20s with TOT as it was stated by Pak defence minister on the inaugration of JF-17s production facility.
You think France will offer you Rafale, EADS will offer you Eurofighter? Europe is trying to open Indian markets, not close them. There is a reason Russia won't directly sell anything to Pakistan, that is why they control 75% of Indian arms imports. Pak didn't want J-10 because it was an inferior specimen. They are waiting to see if J-10B will be all it is hoped, a true 4th gen fighter.
 

ISI

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@Armand:
Rafale,typhoon and gripen were offered to Pakistan in the past.But due to 2005 we turned down our decesion.I hope u remmeber.
French sold us Agostas and sold u scorpenes?and now they are offering us there 5th generation Marlene?they offered us radars for JF-17 MICA radars as well as sold u Mirage 2000s.
Germans offering us U-214 Boats which are 95% completed according to german officials.
Sweden sold us SAAB AWACS.
I hope i answered ur queries
 

Armand2REP

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@Armand:
Rafale,typhoon and gripen were offered to Pakistan in the past.But due to 2005 we turned down our decesion.I hope u remmeber.
Really? I hope you remember...

Sweden won't sell Gripen fighter planes to Pakistan
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/07pak.htm

Pakistan could never afford Rafale or Eurofighter to even ask for it.

French sold us Agostas and sold u scorpenes?and now they are offering us there 5th generation Marlene?they offered us radars for JF-17 MICA radars as well as sold u Mirage 2000s.
Germans offering us U-214 Boats which are 95% completed according to german officials.
The JF-17 upgrade does not have government approval and is stalled because of our negotiations with India. The Germans are still stalling the U boats to Pakistan.

Sweden sold us SAAB AWACS.
It is not an offencive weapon.

I hope i answered ur queries
I hope you open your eyes and see that Europe is playing to India, not Pakistan.
 

gogbot

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I know your reply was not for me, But i would like to offer my two cents as well

Rafale,typhoon and gripen were offered to Pakistan in the past.But due to 2005 we turned down our decesion.I hope u remember.
Well for starters. Lets be honest, companies make these machines and will sell it to almost anyone that can help them make a profit.
Currently that anyone is not Pakistan.

If you are not aware your Country passed a law preventing the acquisition of any twin engine fighter aircraft into the PAF . This was done in an attempt to cut costs and make the current fleet size more affordable.

That means the EF and French Rafael are out, full stop. And even if you managed to get the cash to buy a size able fleet. Its an affordable option.

That leaves us with the SAAB Griphen. well is suppose you could get that, Sweden is a neutral country it does not take sides. But turns out you could not even find that affordable either.

And my last point on this. All the machines offered to Pakistan were of a significantly less advanced to the one offered to India.

EF to India comes with new A2G weapons, AESA , trust vectoring and almost full ToT

Rafael to India comes with AESA and Full ToT including source codes for the radar, and Even assistance in installing the Kaveri Engine into the Rafael.

SAAB is also upping the game to India by not just offering the Griphen but the Griphen NG, a significantly more advanced machine.

In fact all the offers made to India for the MMRCA were planes that had to have their features improved through New R&D. Because as they are in their present form, They cant even qualify for the MMRCA deal.
That's whats been offered to India

State of the Art Tech, which is still undergoing Field testing


French sold us Agostas and sold u scorpenes?
So what are trying to prove, Scorpène class submarine are the much more advanced successors to the Agostas.

In fact more countries have bought Scorpène class submarine's then they have Agostas

Brazil in fact is so confident in its design that

In 2008, the Brazilian Navy ordered four Scorpène. There are also reports that a fifth hull has been ordered to be fitted with an indigenously developed nuclear propulsion plant.

and now they are offering us there 5th generation Marlene?
Give me a source about this offer, as far as i understand, it is the The Pakistan Navy that is currently evaluating the possibility of purchasing 3 Marlin class boats to replace its decommissioned Daphné class submarine.

No offer has been made yet.

Either way, India has much more leverage in France then Pakistan.


they offered us radars for JF-17 MICA radars as well as sold u Mirage 2000s.
Correction they may have offered you some radar for the JF17 upgrades.

But India was offered.

The French government has cleared full technology transfer of the Rafale to India, including that of the RBE2-AA Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar (which will be integrated with the Rafale by 2010) and the transfer of software source codes, which will allow Indian scientists to re-programme a radar or any sensitive equipment if need be. Without the software source codes, the IAF would have to specify mission parameters to foreign manufacturers to enable configuration of their radar, seriously compromising security in the process.

Dassault has also offered to fit the Kaveri engine into the Rafale, which, if chosen, which would greatly improve commonality with the Tejas aircraft that will enter service into the IAF by 2010. Concerns have been raised about cost issues as well as potential sales to Pakistan, which has also expressed interest in the Rafale. However, no such jets have been sold to Pakistan, and India and France have recently agreed to "go beyond a buyer-seller relationship".


http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mil_avi/mil_aircraft/20081105_dassault.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/11/11/318499/new-radar-could-boost-rafales-export-prospects.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1576672/France-and-India-deepen-defence-ties.html
Also lets not forget They are also Upgrading the IAF Mirage Fleet for 2.1 billion dollars.

Germans offering us U-214 Boats which are 95% completed according to german officials.
No subs have been seen for years. Its been in Lingo years.

Whilst Germany Makes statements like this.

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/international/article97199.ece

On the eve of its President Horst Koehler’s visit, Germany said India had sprung a “nasty surprise” on it by cancelling a billion-dollar tender for aircraft refuellers and held the Indian bureaucracy liable for not being able to ready four pacts for signing.

Berlin said that as a leader in civil nuclear technology, especially in the safety field, it was prepared to look at the prospects of collaboration in a “positive way” but had not received a request for specific areas in which India was interested.

“For the multi-role tanker tenders, our aircraft [European] was chosen but it came as a nasty surprise for us and [it was] very disappointing [that] it was rejected at the political level. We were not explained the reason in detail and it seems quality was not exactly the criteria,” German Ambassador Thomas Matussek told journalists here on Friday.

Germany wanted to sign several agreements during Dr. Koehler’s visit but they were not cleared by India on grounds that the bureaucratic procedure would take some time.

Germany was most keen on inking a memorandum of understanding for cooperation in security and anti-terrorism to follow up on the real-time exchange of information taking place between intelligence agencies of the two countries. Though the draft was sent last July, the Ministries of External Affairs and Home were still discussing it and thereafter it would have to be put up to the Cabinet for approval. “I spoke to Mr. Chidambaram and he said he will push very hard for it,” observed Mr. Matussek.

Germany was also miffed over the last-minute pulling out of an Indian team for a course on counter-intelligence and felt it would be tough for the organisers to accommodate Indians in future if this attitude continued.

An agreement on economic and technical cooperation worth about Rs. 2,500 crore also could not be finalised despite being initialled last year as was the proposed pact on corporate and social responsibility. A fourth pact on social security too is still being negotiated.


Nevertheless, Mr. Matussek took comfort from the fact that these agreements would be signed in future and both sides were going ahead with closer partnerships in a number of fields. Dr. Koehler’s visit, he said, signals Germany’s desire to enrich and deepen the strategic partnership.

And despite the cancellation, Germany believes it is still in the race for this re-tendered competition as well as for supplying 126 fighters and engines for an indigenously built combat aircraft. Though the cutting edge technology will not come cheap, the German Ambassador maintained that the cost of maintaining European military hardware will be less than the offerings by competitors from the U.S. and Russia. Another advantage over the U.S. was that Germany would not insist on monitoring procedures including on-the-spot inspections.

Dr. Koehler will arrive here on February 1 and during his nearly week-long stay, interact with the entire top political leadership. He will also visit Pune and Mumbai.
Germany seems very intent of furthering the relationship with India, I wonder why India has been so Unresponsive to Germany's overtures.

Give Germany enough of a guaranteed Incentive and it will Dump the U-214 deal with Pakistan. If They felt differently they would have already sold you those submarines .

From My POV Germany seems to be considering its options

Sweden sold us SAAB AWACS.
AWACS is a non offensive weapons system.

and there is no ToT what so ever on the purchase.

Also SAAB is involved in about 20 different defense projects India. The largest being the MMRCA. It is also looking to partner up with India firms.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch#!videos=M8Vqh3ZAPwg&v=8VTMGoBGokg[/video]

SAAB is looking to invest a lot in India, A few sales to Pakistan is not their top priority.

Russia has always been ur ally still it sold RD-93s to us indirectly while india tried its uttmost.
But you dont get the joke of the whole deal do you.
Your getting your Jet engines from your Arch Rivals Best friend.

Off course Russia has its own Foreign policy and it can act as it see's fit.

You are none the less getting an engine that India knows everything about.
An engine that makes the JF-17 more underpowered then the Tejas.
An engine bought from a company that does extensive work with India.

Not only can India have an Approximate number of JF-17's and spares. through Info on sales of the RD-93

During and after wartime. It reduces Pakistan's Ability to replace losses.

Honestly, how can you site that as a positive, Russia is very Unreliable supplier to Pakistan and Huge security Leak with regards to India's relations with Russia.

Its certainly not in their Interests to Upset their Largest importer of weapons and their Biggest Strategic Partner.

We are not the boss of Russia, But Russia has a vested Interest in Good relations with India. They felt indirect sales of engines would not jeopardize those interests, then i guess there was a Punch line we all missed.
 
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IBM

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Everybody in this world have stopped giving money to Pakistan. Neither muslim world nor so called, friends of Pakistan, which includes EU,japan and China coming for aid. What ever AID is coming, is directly spend on development projects..these are called non military aid. USA and china have no option but to give there old,inferior birds to their parasite friend in order to continue their war on terror.
 

gogbot

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Everybody in this world have stopped giving money to Pakistan. Neither muslim world nor so called, friends of Pakistan, which includes EU,japan and China coming for aid. What ever AID is coming, is directly spend on development projects..these are called non military aid. USA and china have no option but to give there old,inferior birds to their parasite friend in order to continue their war on terror.
dont troll,

PAK is in fact still growing despite its whole mess of problems.
Pak still receives foreign investment, i guess slick marketing.
IMF and other organizations exist to Help countries like Pakistan

I'm not usually the advocate or the defender of Pakistan. But i dont want people to just make stuff up like magical scenarios where Pak will just suffer economic collapse tomorrow.

fact remains Pak less politically stable then economically. economically its their self inflicted slump, They have the means to recover if they made the right moves, Getting rid of terror camps and increasing trade with India for one . Politically its their continuing disaster they call democracy, but in reality is everything but.

Bottom line dude, dont just make generalizations and take pot shots, try to be a little bit more subjective and on topic
 
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This talk reminds of the time pakistani President claimed french gave them a nuclear deal last year, it's all talk until you see it happen.
 

Vinod2070

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I think that is a major setback for Pakistan. They no longer have confidence in the supposedly advanced J-10! Even for JF-17 they had to go for Western avionics and weapons package. A vote of no confidence in Chinese stuff?
 

ISI

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Really? I hope you remember...

Sweden won't sell Gripen fighter planes to Pakistan
http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jul/07pak.htm
Did we ask them to buy it?
If they can sell us AWACS they sure can sell us a jet.
Pakistan could never afford Rafale or Eurofighter to even ask for it.
Lol we wanted 40 back in 2006 or something but we didnt coz of earth quake scnerio.
And i hope u remmember till 2008 our economy was the fastest growing in asia so we were quite capable of buying it.Even now we can buy 2 squadrons if we want atleast.

The JF-17 upgrade does not have government approval and is stalled because of our negotiations with India.
Lol man and still PAF is improving it and has announced the second block to come in 2012?Despite frances negotiation they are selling us MICA and offering us there best radars?be it sagem or other french company?
Not to forget 5th gerneration marlyne tht incoparates technology from nuclear subs?Wat about Vixen AESA from U.K?

The Germans are still stalling the U boats to Pakistan.
Well it was there official that said the deal was 95% done.If even tht doesnt go wel probably opt for the french.

It is not an offencive weapon.
Its still used for offensive and deffensive purposes?


I hope you open your eyes and see that Europe is playing to India, not Pakistan.
And wil u buy ur jets from every european country?
They dont care if ur india,pakistan or egypt the want $$$$$$$$
 

ISI

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Friends the thing is tht happiness and sadness dont always remain.
We were pretty wrecked thts to WOT but we are starting to show improvement.
10% improve in economy and thanks to army this year not much terrorism.Just waiting for the tali scums die.
 

Yusuf

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Along with that the LeT and the likes too. Ameen.
 

IBM

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dont troll,

PAK is in fact still growing despite its whole mess of problems.
Pak still receives foreign investment, i guess slick marketing.
IMF and other organizations exist to Help countries like Pakistan

I'm not usually the advocate or the defender of Pakistan. But i dont want people to just make stuff up like magical scenarios where Pak will just suffer economic collapse tomorrow.

fact remains Pak less politically stable then economically. economically its their self inflicted slump, They have the means to recover if they made the right moves, Getting rid of terror camps and increasing trade with India for one . Politically its their continuing disaster they call democracy, but in reality is everything but.

Bottom line dude, dont just make generalizations and take pot shots, try to be a little bit more subjective and on topic
Iam not trolling. Iam giving you the real picture. Bottom line is Pak is in great econimic mess.There finance minister has resigned and country is runing without finance minister for 15 daysnow. IMF and WB are there. Because of them the taxes are higher in Pak and they monitor their money they lended. US wants its audit office in Pak( u know why, coz Pak has most beautiful locations). Now you will say iam trolling. Anyhow back to topic, iam saying Pak has no money to buy millitary stuff and countries like china,EU and saudis have stopped givivng them soft loans to buy millitary stuff.So, in order to continue their war on terror they have to compliment pak with some thing. DOYOU SERIOUSLY THINK PAK CAN COME OUT OF THIS ECONOMIC AND POLITCAL MESS ANYTIME SOON??????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
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gogbot

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Iam not trolling. Iam giving you the real picture. Bottom line is Pak is in great econimic mess.There finance minister has resigned and country is runing without finance minister for 15 daysnow. IMF and WB are there. Because of them the taxes are higher in Pak and they monitor their money they lended. US wants its audit office in Pak( u know why, coz Pak has most beautiful locations). Now you will say iam trolling. Anyhow back to topic, iam saying Pak has no money to buy millitary stuff and countries like china,EU and saudis have stopped givivng them soft loans to buy millitary stuff.So, in order to continue their war on terror they have to compliment pak with some thing. DOYOU SERIOUSLY THINK PAK CAN COME OUT OF THIS ECONOMIC AND POLITCAL MESS ANYTIME SOON??????????????????????????????????????????????????
Dude i already gave you my opinion on your points. We all know the reason they are buying from China is because of price.

Also China is still giving Pakistan Loans, And even credit on Arms sales.

Hell Pak will literally end up owing China for 100 years, after this.
 

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