New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Neeraj Mathur]

My interpretation of your statement is...

IA is at fault...

nope i want to say that some one has to start somewhere
let it be IA

because of blame game we all know where we are now, Cant even make a gun for our forces

 

[Ky Loung]

The USA have the largest small arms production in the world. Over 1 billions firearms in private hands that around 3 firearms per US citizen. The majority of the money firearms companies make come from the civilian market. Foreign firearms company must base their factory in US in order to sell firearms to US military and LE (Law Enforcement). It's a requirement. Most foreign firearms companies like Glock, FN, HK, Sig, CZ, ect have factories in the US for decades.

The US military will not replace the AR15 (M4, M16, etc) anytime soon. The reason is the civilian market. AR15 is the best selling rifle in the USA for the last 30 years or so. The private sector is the primary lead on improving the AR15. Almost every R&D dollars comes from the private sector to continue improving and updating the AR15. That means that any new firearms that come out will be outdated compare to the AR15 platform. It also means the US military can update the AR15 without spending millions on R&D. R&D cost is shoulder by the private sector.

I wouldn't recommend Bullpup. Lots of problems with them. Trigger and handling for starter. Specials forces don't use them even if their country have it as standard arms. From SAS (UK, AUS, etc) to French commandos all use a variation of the AR15 platform. You will never see a bullpup rifle in competitive civilian competition. They are just too slow.

Beretta`s ARX160 is now available for civilian. A lot of owner have buyer regrets.

 

[Meriv90]

The USA have the largest small arms production in the world. Over 1 billions firearms in private hands that around 3 firearms per US citizen. The majority of the money firearms companies make come from the civilian market. Foreign firearms company must base their factory in US in order to sell firearms to US military and LE (Law Enforcement). It's a requirement. Most foreign firearms companies like Glock, FN, HK, Sig, CZ, ect have factories in the US for decades.

The US military will not replace the AR15 (M4, M16, etc) anytime soon. The reason is the civilian market. AR15 is the best selling rifle in the USA for the last 30 years or so. The private sector is the primary lead on improving the AR15. Almost every R&D dollars comes from the private sector to continue improving and updating the AR15. That means that any new firearms that come out will be outdated compare to the AR15 platform. It also means the US military can update the AR15 without spending millions on R&D. R&D cost is shoulder by the private sector.

I wouldn't recommend Bullpup. Lots of problems with them. Trigger and handling for starter. Specials forces don't use them even if their country have it as standard arms. From SAS (UK, AUS, etc) to French commandos all use a variation of the AR15 platform. You will never see a bullpup rifle in competitive civilian competition. They are just too slow.

Beretta`s ARX160 is now available for civilian. A lot of owner have buyer regrets.

Please state reason of regrets on ARX-100 because online there is both who love it and who hates it.

Plus you need to take in account strong american stereotypes (specially if we are referring to the social category that buys ARs) about foreign products like Japanese or italian (Ex:FIAT meanwhile we bought Chrysler)

 

[Ky Loung]

It's not sterotypes. American don't care if it is made in the USA or in China. American only care about getting the best. For example Glock isn't an American company but it does have factories in the USA (a requirement) that produce Glock. Glock own over 80% of US local/state law enforcement market. Glock over the years have gotten a strong foothold on the Federal law enforcement market. The majority of Federal LE market is still own by Sig which isn't American company. More US citizen conceal carry Glock 19 than any pistol. The Navy SEAL standard pistol is Sig 226. Don't forget the M9 pistol is standard issue to all US military force. It is made by Beretta.

I don't own or shot a Beretta`s ARX160 yet. It's too new and the current asking price have been inflated beyond most bank account. Even if I wanted to I probably won't be able to buy it. It sold out everwhere. From what the owners posted, the common complaint is it bulky, trigger is horrible, small charging handle, difficult mounting on shoulder while using body armor, the safety is kind of in a weird place, and of course worrying about losing zero because of the upper is made of plastic. Unlike the G36, the ARX160 have ceramic heatshields to protect the plastic from shifting the barrel. However it too new if it does the job or not.

 

[Killnaytor]

Any latest news on this tender? All I see on the internet are discussions and options, but no one is commenting on how far the tender has reached.

I just hope that this doesn't end up like the MMRCA tender... It's still not done... -.-

 

[SajeevJino]

.

Galil ACE on Final move

 

[Ky Loung]

Galil ACE is a really bad choice IMO.

 

[Immanuel]

Galil ACE is a really bad choice IMO.

And why would that be?

IWI ACE - Extreme Conditions - YouTube

It's a reliable rifle and comes in various caliber/barrel options. India is mostly using Israeli Rifles/Carbines and sights. The ACE is a good choice as long as it can prove to be reliable in Deserts/Jungles/ Arctic conditions in Siachen and has good over the beach capabilties.

As of now Tavors are the among the most reliable modern weapons in our inventory with the among the best Red Dot/reflex sights deployed any where in the world and hence are used extensively by most specialist units in the country Para SF/Airborne/ SFF/ Marcos/ SSB/ Garuds/ Greyhounds/ BSF Commandos/ Cobra commandos etc.

IWI makes some really fine firearms. I don't see why the ACE can't win this competition.

 

[Ky Loung]

Because the main variant that the Army will be using will be almost 8lbs. 8lbs for a intermediate caliber rifle. If I'm going to hump 8lbs in the field it better be a rifle that chamber battle rifle caliber. With lights, lasers, scope, and other accessories, you're looking at 10-18lbs. With a scope is 10lbs.

Unlike the AR15 and other modern rifle the Galil is a non-modular rifle. That means it hard to upgrade and update. It use the same body type as the AK because it is the Israeli version of the AK. It has the same problems as the old style AK. Bad ergo, bad handling, and cover system is bad for attachments.

If you're going for Kalashnikov might as well get a modernized version of it like the Sig 556 or XCR.

Bullpup design is flawed. It is very popular with the game kiddies and movie goers. People that actually use their rifle to kill other people they stay away for it like the Bubonic plague. No special force use a bullpup design even it is standard in their military. No private military company (PMC) use it. These guys make $500,000 and up in Iraq and Afghanistan. None of them use them not because they can't afford it but because it suck.

The handling of bullpup is extremely bad. If the rifle goes Kaboom (KB!) you won't have a face left. Bad triggers. Transition from strong to weak side is none optimal. Placement of scopes and accessories is really piss poor. Unbalance. The list goes on.

Bullpup are great sellers in the USA because game kiddies buy them in doves. I remember when the Tavors came out and price was inflated, someone posted on Arfcom one of the vendor hand 50 on sale. In about 5 to 10 minutes it was sold out.

 

[Immanuel]

Because the main variant that the Army will be using will be almost 8lbs. 8lbs for a intermediate caliber rifle. If I'm going to hump 8lbs in the field it better be a rifle that chamber battle rifle caliber. With lights, lasers, scope, and other accessories, you're looking at 10-18lbs. With a scope is 10lbs.

Unlike the AR15 and other modern rifle the Galil is a non-modular rifle. That means it hard to upgrade and update. It use the same body type as the AK because it is the Israeli version of the AK. It has the same problems as the old style AK. Bad ergo, bad handling, and cover system is bad for attachments.

If you're going for Kalashnikov might as well get a modernized version of it like the Sig 556 or XCR.

Bullpup design is flawed. It is very popular with the game kiddies and movie goers. People that actually use their rifle to kill other people they stay away for it like the Bubonic plague. No special force use a bullpup design even it is standard in their military. No private military company (PMC) use it. These guys make $500,000 and up in Iraq and Afghanistan. None of them use them not because they can't afford it but because it suck.

The handling of bullpup is extremely bad. If the rifle goes Kaboom (KB!) you won't have a face left. Bad triggers. Transition from strong to weak side is none optimal. Placement of scopes and accessories is really piss poor. Unbalance. The list goes on.

Bullpup are great sellers in the USA because game kiddies buy them in doves. I remember when the Tavors came out and price was inflated, someone posted on Arfcom one of the vendor hand 50 on sale. In about 5 to 10 minutes it was sold out.

Dude seems to me your the kiddy running about with no knowledge of how professional militaries work, many militaries including French/ British/ Austrian have adopted bull pup rifles in heavy numbers for years on end and many SF units use them to good effect. Tavor is the main weapon of choice for Israeli SF units & Indian SF units which easily rank among the most experienced SF units in the world.

Traditional M-4 on daily basis is not even half as reliable as most of these bull-pups.The New Galil ACE is not an AK, matter of fact it is far more reliable than a modern M-4 and can be fitted with any of the myriad of scopes and accessories. The placement of these attachments are neither poor or ineffective in any way. They are ideal weapons of choice for urban ops due to low profile and are easy to operate & maintain.

You are more likely to have M-4 go 'Kaboom' in your face than a Tavor.

Seriously who talks this way

X-95/ Tavor/ ACE/Negev are all truly modern weapons built & designed by people who know what they are doing.

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, ACE 21,22,23

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, TAVOR

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, X95 Rifle / Carbine

Also there are many variants of the ACE and no one knows for sure which variant the army will use mainly. They will obviously acquire different versions for different units and roles.

Most modern rifles weigh between 3-4kgs without scopes/attachments so there is nothing new there. The tests the army will conduct will be more to do with ease of use, reliability in extreme conditions, ease of maintenance. ACE stands a good chance of proving itself capable.

 

[Ky Loung]

I typed the above post in a hurry because of work. Let me add some more in regard to bullpup. The US has a lot of firearms schools in the ten or hundred of thousands. Each schools have a different way of doing it. The variation on handling a rifle is very small.

It's very awkward to handle a bullpup rifle. Due to it design running a bullpup is really slow. I have a 10.5 inch AR15. It's about the same size as a bullpull but I can run it faster than any bullpup.

Kyle Defoor
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=909ZzJYRFJ8

1-5 drill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaCpOt9xVy4

Travis Haley doing 1-5 drill in 2.14 seconds. He is not using auto. It's all semi auto, ie one shot per trigger pull. Auto doesn't allow that amount of control in such a short time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hXV-Buvs1Y

This is Travis Haley killing a lot of people in Iraq. It the video that made him and blackwater famous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gYvW0nwkwM

This video is what made him rich.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=segtXBwglj4

 

[abingdonboy]

Any latest news on this tender? All I see on the internet are discussions and options, but no one is commenting on how far the tender has reached.

I just hope that this doesn't end up like the MMRCA tender... It's still not done... -.-

Final trails will take place soon AFAIK, the IA has identified this as somewhat of a priority for them so perhaps in the next 18 months something will come to fruition (hopefully sooner).

 

[boris]

Dude seems to me your the kiddy running about with no knowledge of how professional militaries work, many militaries including French/ British/ Austrian have adopted bull pup rifles in heavy numbers for years on end and many SF units use them to good effect. Tavor is the main weapon of choice for Israeli SF units & Indian SF units which easily rank among the most experienced SF units in the world.

Traditional M-4 on daily basis is not even half as reliable as most of these bull-pups.The New Galil ACE is not an AK, matter of fact it is far more reliable than a modern M-4 and can be fitted with any of the myriad of scopes and accessories. The placement of these attachments are neither poor or ineffective in any way. They are ideal weapons of choice for urban ops due to low profile and are easy to operate & maintain.

You are more likely to have M-4 go 'Kaboom' in your face than a Tavor.

Seriously who talks this way

X-95/ Tavor/ ACE/Negev are all truly modern weapons built & designed by people who know what they are doing.

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, ACE 21,22,23

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, TAVOR

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, X95 Rifle / Carbine

Also there are many variants of the ACE and no one knows for sure which variant the army will use mainly. They will obviously acquire different versions for different units and roles.

Most modern rifles weigh between 3-4kgs without scopes/attachments so there is nothing new there. The tests the army will conduct will be more to do with ease of use, reliability in extreme conditions, ease of maintenance. ACE stands a good chance of proving itself capable.

From what I have heard the French have stopped production of the FAMAS and have a FAMAS replacement program of their own with almost most of the choices being conventional design

France launches FAMAS replacement tender - IHS Jane's 360

Another good example is the UK,Australia and NZ where the regular Army uses bullpups but their SF units use Diemaco C8's and M4's.

Israel and India are two examples where the SF is heavily using bullpups with just a small number of guys using M4's, Israel serves a better example as few years back they used M16's,M4's and then switched to the Tavor in large numbers.

 

[Ky Loung]

From what I have heard the French have stopped production of the FAMAS and have a FAMAS replacement program of their own with almost most of the choices being conventional design

France launches FAMAS replacement tender - IHS Jane's 360

Another good example is the UK,Australia and NZ where the regular Army uses bullpups but their SF units use Diemaco C8's and M4's.

Israel and India are two examples where the SF is heavily using bullpups with just a small number of guys using M4's, Israel serves a better example as few years back they used M16's,M4's and then switched to the Tavor in large numbers.

Israeli will learn very fast why Bullpup is bad. Most western special operation guys run AR15 because it is the best platform. If you compare how fast an AR15 vs Bullpup run through a course it's not even close. Bullpup will always be slower. It awkwardness to shoot a bullpup. From changing magazine to setting up the shot it all slow, as in snail slow compare to conventional rifles. With a very short forgrip controlling a bullpup is a task within itself.

The French is giving up on their bullpup. They might go for AR15 variant. The British have a large number of AR15 so I won't surprise if they go for AR15 platform when the time comes to replace their bullpup. The UK placed a large order for LMT 7.62x51 AR10/SR25 (AR15 big brother) a few years ago.

LMT .308 Modular Weapon System (MWS) Monolithic Rail Platform (MRP) Semi-Auto 7.62mm NATO Tactical AR Battle Rifle/Carbine | DefenseReview.com (DR): An online tactical technology and military defense technology magazine with particular focus on the l

LMT MWS - recent pictures of the rifle serving the British in Afghanistan - AR15.COM

 

[Ky Loung]

Dude seems to me your the kiddy running about with no knowledge of how professional militaries work, many militaries including French/ British/ Austrian have adopted bull pup rifles in heavy numbers for years on end and many SF units use them to good effect. Tavor is the main weapon of choice for Israeli SF units & Indian SF units which easily rank among the most experienced SF units in the world.

Traditional M-4 on daily basis is not even half as reliable as most of these bull-pups.The New Galil ACE is not an AK, matter of fact it is far more reliable than a modern M-4 and can be fitted with any of the myriad of scopes and accessories. The placement of these attachments are neither poor or ineffective in any way. They are ideal weapons of choice for urban ops due to low profile and are easy to operate & maintain.

You are more likely to have M-4 go 'Kaboom' in your face than a Tavor.

Seriously who talks this way

X-95/ Tavor/ ACE/Negev are all truly modern weapons built & designed by people who know what they are doing.

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, ACE 21,22,23

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, TAVOR

Israel Weapon Industries (IWI) Ltd, X95 Rifle / Carbine

Also there are many variants of the ACE and no one knows for sure which variant the army will use mainly. They will obviously acquire different versions for different units and roles.

Most modern rifles weigh between 3-4kgs without scopes/attachments so there is nothing new there. The tests the army will conduct will be more to do with ease of use, reliability in extreme conditions, ease of maintenance. ACE stands a good chance of proving itself capable.

Galil ACE is part of the Galil family. Galil is Israeli version of the Soviet AKM. The Gaili Ace is an update version of Galili which incorporate rails and modern stuffs. It still an AK clone. The version military will adopt will most likely be the 16" or greater. The 16" is almost 7.5 lbs. That's in the battle rifle range, ie 7.62x51, .303, 30-06, 7.62x54R. It's a really heavy carbine.

IMI / IWI - Galil ARM: Field Strip - YouTube

Why do special operation guys use the AR15 family if it so unreliable? These people go into hot zone and risk their lives. The AR15 is a very reliable and accurate weapon. It is rated 4k round per jam for standard version. Greater if use aftermarket parts.

All the Special Operation guys you mention in your post don't use bullpup. They all use AR15 rifles. Hell even the French use AR15.

 

[Immanuel]

Again your posts are laughable at best, one can be just as fast in AR or Bullpup, it all comes down to training. The M-4 is known for its unreliability so much so that the HK and the SCAR were developed. MilSpec Tavors have had no issues in the field, if anything they have proven themselves to be quite good. Keep in mind India too has been using M-4s for its SF units for quite sometime but replaced it with Tavors. Also Tavors have already been active service for well over a decade and if anything they have only been improved with newer version and Israeli's are in no hurry to replace it.

You post a video of the old Galil and expect me to buy it. The Galil ACE depending on variants weighs between 3-5 kgs (which is the standard weight range for all modern rifles including most ARs), it comes in 3 caliber options so no issues there. The Old Galil had the reliability of the AK and the accuracy of an M-4, the new ACE is only better with newer materials and rails and different configs.

Shot Show 2014 - IWI Tavor Crazy Fast Eject & Reload - YouTube

IWI TAVOR - 40 rounds in 6 seconds with Jerry Miculek - YouTube

IWI Israel Factory Tour - Home of the Tavor - YouTube

I am not saying an AR is not good, I myself have fired quite a few ARs including the SCAR/ Smith & Wesson AR-15 etc. and they are good but this doesn't mean the Tavor isn't. Bull-pups are also use extensively by Belgians/ Indian SPG, SSG and other SF units in the world.

 

[hitesh]

Very basic comparison of AR15 & TAR21

 

[Ky Loung]

Again your posts are laughable at best, one
can be just as fast in AR or Bullpup, it all comes down to training.
The M-4 is known for its unreliability so much so that the HK and the
SCAR were developed. MilSpec Tavors have had no issues in the field,
if anything they have proven themselves to be quite good. Keep in mind
India too has been using M-4s for its SF units for quite sometime but
replaced it with Tavors. Also Tavors have already been active service
for well over a decade and if anything they have only been improved
with newer version and Israeli's are in no hurry to replace it.

You post a video of the old Galil and expect me to buy it. The Galil
ACE depending on variants weighs between 3-5 kgs (which is the
standard weight range for all modern rifles including most ARs), it
comes in 3 caliber options so no issues there. The Old Galil had the
reliability of the AK and the accuracy of an M-4, the new ACE is only
better with newer materials and rails and different configs.

I am not saying an AR is not good, I myself have fired quite a few ARs
including the SCAR/ Smith & Wesson AR-15 etc. and they are good but
this doesn't mean the Tavor isn't. Bull-pups are also use extensively
by Belgians/ Indian SPG, SSG and other SF units in the world.

Their job is to sale guns. It is also a new toy so they are naturally
happy about it. Have you ever shot a gun before seriously? Bullpup
design have inherit flaws and not training issues. You will never run
a bullpup design faster than an AR15. No competitor low or high run
bullpup in competition.

Let me point some of it to you.
Trigger: Really really bad trigger. It can't be help because the
trigger in the front of the gun while the hammer is at the back. That
means a long connecting rod is needed.

Length of Pull (LOP): It means the rifle fit your body well. If you notice
every modern firearm that recently comes out has an adjustable stock.
It is there to adjust the rifle to your body. The right length means
you get the shot faster. Bullpup can't do it because it has a fix
stock.

Suppressor: If you run a suppressor in any gun. The gun will get
really dirty. As a rule of thumb 1 shot equal to 10 shot. In other
words 100 shots suppressed equal to 1000 run unsuppressed in regard to
filth. In a bullpup the compact design means more filth is
concentrated in a small area. That will cause reliability issues.

Real Estate: Bullpup is a small design. In modern warfare, where a
solider will have optics, lights, lasers, night vision in front of
optic, etc. How many accessories can you put on a bullpup.
https://www.google.com/search?q=tav...YThoAT65oGQBw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=936&bih=442

Gripping: Gripping a bullpup is very awkward. You can see it in the videos. It is sub optimal because you don't have the leverage to control the gun. It is much harder to control a bullpup than a conventional rifle. Also gripping a bullpup take a lot of real estate away from accessories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmcKil5n_Hk

Recoil: Recoil pulse is greater than a conventional design because it a more compact and the lack of proper gripping increase the recoil pulse.

Controls: Bullpup have sub optimal controls. That means you run the gun a lot slower than conventional design.

Transition Between Strong and Weak Side is slow. Transition BSWS means you switch hands. For example if you are right handed your strong side is right and your weak side is left. There are times that you must switch between the two. It part of normal training. The lack of adjustable stock (LOP) and the compactness of Bullpup make it slow to switch.

I could go on but I think I open a lot of people eyes on the flaw of the design. The bullpup design is over 100 years old and these flaws cannot be fix. It's part of the design.

Why do all the Western Special and PMC guys use AR15? They use it because it is the best proven platform.

The Galili like AK do not have accuracy of an AR15. Not even close. It's impossible because of the design. The AR15 is inline design that means everything is inline. So every pull is the same. It also have the ability to go free float handguard. A top end AR15 will almost beat any top end bolt action rifle. That's why the British, US, etc use AR15/SR25/AR10 sniper rifles.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

I think our new rifle is more better than all of these.....

No news about the testing of the new rifle made by the OFB?

 

[LastProphet]

Re: India goes shopping for a new assault rifle

Better or not no-one cares, if it caters our requirement then its best for us....!!!!


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