NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

HariPrasad-1

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When Antony was Defense Minister, he asked navy to decide on Aircraft carrier at that time. When he was Defense minister, I was hearing about finalization engine deal. Even today, I listen the same gossip after more than a decade. Had we go alone on mission mode with adequate funding, we would have an engine today so as aircraft carrier. I am hearing about Hypersonic Brahmos for at least 2 decades. Saras flew a long back. Sitara flew a long back but nothing is ready today. Government should stop bluffing. They do not go full fledge and fund the project properly.
 

Spitfire9

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Don't remember where but I think I read that this project was being transferred to HAL. Is that right?
 

tomthounaojam

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If today BIG PLAYERS like Indigo and Air India had some empathy and placed 10-15 aircraft each for their regional connection under the UDAN scheme, aircraft NAL Saras would have lots of breathing space. I blame the Indian operator for not having faith in our design for one of the reasons for extremely slow pace of progress.
 

Indx TechStyle

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If today BIG PLAYERS like Indigo and Air India had some empathy and placed 10-15 aircraft each for their regional connection under the UDAN scheme, aircraft NAL Saras would have lots of breathing space. I blame the Indian operator for not having faith in our design for one of the reasons for extremely slow pace of progress.
Airline business is not about promotion of national product. A tip top flawless safety record is required for a passenger plane.
No private or government airline will risk the lives if passengers.

Saras has negligible flight hours, even one crash within those and still an under development design. It is not a bus or train you can just run for public on trials. It's about a passenger plane and every glitch guarantees a certain death of innocent lives. Passenger safety is the reason why Boeing and Airbus rule nearly entire passenger plane market despite a dozen countries capable of making them.

No one is at fault here except those developing the aircraft themselves.
 

Arjun Mk1A

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If today BIG PLAYERS like Indigo and Air India had some empathy and placed 10-15 aircraft each for their regional connection under the UDAN scheme, aircraft NAL Saras would have lots of breathing space. I blame the Indian operator for not having faith in our design for one of the reasons for extremely slow pace of progress.

The plane is on paper till now. No one going to place order and wait for 5-6 years. ( Conservative numbers)
 

tomthounaojam

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Airline business is not about promotion of national product. A tip top flawless safety record is required for a passenger plane.
No private or government airline will risk the lives if passengers.

Saras has negligible flight hours, even one crash within those and still an under development design. It is not a bus or train you can just run for public on trials. It's about a passenger plane and every glitch guarantees a certain death of innocent lives. Passenger safety is the reason why Boeing and Airbus rule nearly entire passenger plane market despite a dozen countries capable of making them.

No one is at fault here except those developing the aircraft themselves.
Comac C919 has almost 1000 order books, and it is limited service and designed from a fairly new? They might not be sold elsewhere as of now, however, their country operator and leasing company have huge faith in them, we all mock Chinese quality. All, I am saying Indian airline operator has their part in the aviation sector growth in the country.
 

Satish Sharma

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Comac C919 has almost 1000 order books, and it is limited service and designed from a fairly new? They might not be sold elsewhere as of now, however, their country operator and leasing company have huge faith in them, we all mock Chinese quality. All, I am saying Indian airline operator has their part in the aviation sector growth in the country.
Expect same success with 70-90 seater regional transport aircraft.
We have huge market like china, later government can tax more to foreign products of same class as we would have and developed in future.
Saras is small aircraft. Rich people usually buy such small aircraft. Saras has too much competition and others have a safety record which saras would lack unless used by all gov. Department as there default aircraft.
 

Azaad

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As per this video , FF of Saras Mk-2 is scheduled for end 2026. Meanwhile the last we heard of the RTA was CSIR was awaiting the go ahead from the CCS & allotment of funds against an estimated budget of ~ 2 billion USD.

This was the news in AeroIndia 23 IIRC. Since then we've the usual Sannata. Part of the problem is unlike the defence industry there's no mai baap for the civilian airliner program.

What we're hearing about the Saras is also due to the fact it has defence applications & the armed forces have committed certain numbers otherwise thus project would have either got a quiet burial or put into the cold storage indefinitely.

That's one reason I suspect we aren't hearing of the RTA as it has a defence component earlier which has now been de linked. The IAF after waiting for nearly 2 decades has gone ahead last year to release their own tender for it & here we are.
 

Arjun Mk1A

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Comac C919 has almost 1000 order books, and it is limited service and designed from a fairly new? They might not be sold elsewhere as of now, however, their country operator and leasing company have huge faith in them, we all mock Chinese quality. All, I am saying Indian airline operator has their part in the aviation sector growth in the country.

Till comac has a flying prototype which is real
 

Spitfire9

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Is there anything pointing to Saras Mk2 being a competitive design or does Saras promise to be an 'experimental' programme limited to GOI subsidised sales and use? Even if that is the case, India will have gained some experience in designing an aircraft for the light utility airliner sector. More useful experience would be gained if a company other than HAL manufactured it.
 

Spitfire9

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Till comac has a flying prototype which is real
6 aircraft were delivered to China Eastern Airlines 2022-2024. No idea how many Comac can make each year but obviously with 1000+ orders, production will need to exceed 100 a year.
 

Azaad

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Is there anything pointing to Saras Mk2 being a competitive design or does Saras promise to be an 'experimental' programme limited to GOI subsidised sales and use? Even if that is the case, India will have gained some experience in designing an aircraft for the light utility airliner sector. More useful experience would be gained if a company other than HAL manufactured it.
I think if you were to go through this very thread from the first post onwards a lot of your doubts would be clarified . Hopefully you'd get a good insight into our civilian airliner program too & why it has always flattered to deceive !
 

Indx TechStyle

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Comac C919 has almost 1000 order books, and it is limited service and designed from a fairly new? They might not be sold elsewhere as of now, however, their country operator and leasing company have huge faith in them, we all mock Chinese quality.
Regardless of us mocking Chinese quality,
  1. China had much higher experience in manufacturing military and civil purpose airliners. C919 was just their manifestation of learning they did will manufacturing foreign aircraft on license.
  2. C919 was a clear cut program and at was much more advanced stage for induction.
Saras and C919 aren't comparable by a mile.

All, I am saying Indian airline operator has their part in the aviation sector growth in the country.
Indian airline operators have a role in civil aviation revenue in country.

They cannot be flag bearers of indigenization unless India itself offers something which directly has acceptable advantage over western counterpart. You do not have the option of progressive growth against superior product here. You either use cheapest, safest and easily accessible & serviceable planes, or people turn away from your airline.


Indian airline operators are not answerable, responsible or even morally incorrect in this episode. They're doing what they must do.
 

MiG-29SMT

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If today BIG PLAYERS like Indigo and Air India had some empathy and placed 10-15 aircraft each for their regional connection under the UDAN scheme, aircraft NAL Saras would have lots of breathing space. I blame the Indian operator for not having faith in our design for one of the reasons for extremely slow pace of progress.
I do not doubt about the quality of Saras, but aircraft need to be sold under a need that justifies the sales.

Embraer started with turbuprops
1718008001150.png


India can become a player, the main issue is quality and after sales, Embraer in fact sold aircraft in africa and latin america, later Europe and USA.

One of the main reason of its success was also Embraer has connection with many western companies allowing good quality and easy promotion on western countries.

the success of Embraer was in part thanks to a smooth transition from public to private ownership, it was public until ERJ-145 flew, previous success was thanks to government support but it never sold to the Brazilian government as per se, they always promoted their aircraft abroad.

the Technology you have it, the question is to learn to sell it
 

MiG-29SMT

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Regardless of us mocking Chinese quality,
  1. China had much higher experience in manufacturing military and civil purpose airliners. C919 was just their manifestation of learning they did will manufacturing foreign aircraft on license.
  2. C919 was a clear cut program and at was much more advanced stage for induction.
Saras and C919 aren't comparable by a mile.


Indian airline operators have a role in civil aviation revenue in country.

They cannot be flag bearers of indigenization unless India itself offers something which directly has acceptable advantage over western counterpart. You do not have the option of progressive growth against superior product here. You either use cheapest, safest and easily accessible & serviceable planes, or people turn away from your airline.


Indian airline operators are not answerable, responsible or even morally incorrect in this episode. They're doing what they must do.
the problem is never technology, the problem is sales, C919 is a big risk since it is bought on a scam basis, COMAC is onwed by the same entity that owns the airlines buying it.

Add the west never will sell a better engine than their own.

Saras just needs to be sucessful in sales, and C919 to never make profits to show that, If an airplane is sold you can get profits, China has not made profits and as time passes also technology passes.

L-1011 is an example it was beaten by A-330 not because lack of technology but by lack of sales so by the time A-330 appeared the L-1011 was not selling well, Boeing saw it right and made B-767.

Saras just need sales to be successful without sales aircraft manufacturing has no future regardless of technology
 
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Spitfire9

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I think if you were to go through this very thread from the first post onwards a lot of your doubts would be clarified . Hopefully you'd get a good insight into our civilian airliner program too & why it has always flattered to deceive !
Thanks for the advice but 27 pages to wade through is a bit too much for me! Think I'll watch the video linked above instead.
 

Azaad

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Thanks for the advice but 27 pages to wade through is a bit too much for me! Think I'll watch the video linked above instead.
You don't have to parse through just read through skipping what's inessential with a cold beer & blood sausages . What better way to kill time ?!
 

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