NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

[captscooby81]

Oh cool so you are in UK ..By any chance does CAE Oxford still run that MPL course ..I had memory of they running one with Cebu pacific and one with Air Arabia i know someone who had done that with Air Arabia and now joined Qatar in the 330 ..Well there is no guarantee with the Indigo cadet scheme too there are plenty of people who passed out and who didn't got job with indigo ..Europe is fun place to fly the most congested routes and lots of situation experience ..Hope you have easy in clearing your EASA exams and get done with your CPL ..Asia is really good markets like China and Indonesia and Philippines provide lot of opportunities to gain hours quickly to move from RHS to LHS and get command..

Yes KF did had a cadet program back in 2007/8 we had option of choosing between sabeena in USA and Aerospace Australia. i went to australia ..The ones who went to USA came back and got converted and inducted faster ..I also had my issues with DGCA exams as took my own time to clear them ..Then the confusion between A320 and ATR first i started doing ground classes for A320 then after month said there is no positions for A320 and moved to ATR and then made to sit at home with no clue when i will get my TR training will start and then all went downhill for the airline ...There are so many sad stories with KF from pilots to AMEs...

CTE is central training establishment division of Air india which trains pilots,cabin crew and dispatchers for their aircrafts ..They also provide TR for A320 along with base check flights ..

More reasons why i want Modi ji to bring that asshole and hang him with his balls ..

@Rahul Singh Good luck with your TR and hope you come back and join Jet or Spice or AI Express sooner and enjoy your work place up in the sky..

I wish bro! Sadly the IndiGo recruitment process is done in India, I had passed the CAE Oxford aptitude tests in Oxford but to go for the Indigo Cadet scheme I would have had to travel to India specifically.

We will see how my career goes, if the Indian aviation market grows as I expect it shall and if BREXIT really screws up the aviation market as some predict or if the EU becomes less attractive to work in I'll definetly consider India (and Asia as a whole) as a place to relocate to. Nowhere else in the world even comes close to offering the demand as India (and Asia).

A real shame to hear about your experience with KF, what a nightmare! Didn't even know KF had a cadet scheme, that's beyond tragic- fk Mallya! Wish you well with all you are doing.

+ @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR CTE?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Great! Finally, SARAS is coming with Sharklets/WInglets. The cockpit looks modern enough. An overall good improvement over the base model. Besides, SARAS NG is a better sounding name than MK-2. Once TATA starts producing it(hopefully) then it could be renamed as TA-019 or something like that.

I only wish before going straight to RTA-70/90 hence creating a gap of at least a decade, NAL designs a scaled-up version of present SARAS in 45-60 seat category. It won't take as much time as RTA-70 to develop and this category has a good market. Also, subsystem suppliers and production agency would gain enough expertize before they are given the task of producing prototypes of RTA-70.

In my opinion, RTA-70 is best suited to go into the fabrication of its prototypes once C-295 production gets stable at TATA. Airbus TATA JV will also be crucial in getting locally made designs europian certifications.

 

[Rahul Singh]

SARAS-NG.

It is said that an aircraft that looks good fly well. Definitely true is the case of SARAS.

 

[tarunraju]

What is the list price of a civilian Saras?

 

[Flame Thrower]

Do-228 costs 60 crores and 85000(operational costs) per hour with 7000 hrs before TBO.

The operational expenses of aircraft includes crew cost, maintenance costs, airport infrastructure costs, marketing, landing and parking charges, and distribution costs

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.bu...-aircraft-to-prospective-buyers/1/263270.html

Saras should do better than the numbers.

Any civil aviation gurus, please do a CBA(rough numbers are more than enough). I just want to get the picture.

What are the disadvantages of making Saras in Single pilot configuration!?
Old version has roughly 1300 km with half load and 600km with full load.(wiki data and assuming 45 min fuel load)

 

[tharun]

We can convert it into Business jet by adding turbo fans rather than turbo props.
Next stop is 70-100 seat regional aircraft.
Next military cargo plane with 10 ton capacity and scaling upto 60 tons.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I wish bro! Sadly the IndiGo recruitment process is done in India, I had passed the CAE Oxford aptitude tests in Oxford but to go for the Indigo Cadet scheme I would have had to travel to India specifically.

We will see how my career goes, if the Indian aviation market grows as I expect it shall and if BREXIT really screws up the aviation market as some predict or if the EU becomes less attractive to work in I'll definetly consider India (and Asia as a whole) as a place to relocate to. Nowhere else in the world even comes close to offering the demand as India (and Asia).

A real shame to hear about your experience with KF, what a nightmare! Didn't even know KF had a cadet scheme, that's beyond tragic- fk Mallya! Wish you well with all you are doing.

+ @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR CTE?

No you are going good dont come to India right now.

To become a pilot in India is ass drilling for a long time.

You will really have a very bad time specially coz of the life you are used to in England.

My advice for you would be to do what you are doing till you become a commander.

There are many options like you can go to gulf or asia but not until you atleast have a command.

That way you will be sought after.Like it or not FO have no respect anywhere.

CTE like @captscooby81 has explained is a training academy based in Hyderabad.Used to be a high hope for unemployed pilots to get a job after completing CTE training but now things have changed.But the training standards are very good and better than most academies in Europe.

 

[Sancho]

Do-228 costs 60 crores and 85000(operational costs) per hour with 7000 hrs before TBO.

The operational expenses of aircraft includes crew cost, maintenance costs, airport infrastructure costs, marketing, landing and parking charges, and distribution costs

https://www.google.co.in/amp/s/m.bu...-aircraft-to-prospective-buyers/1/263270.html

Saras should do better than the numbers.

=>

The unit cost of the aircraft, with more than 70 per cent indigenous content, will be around 40-45 crores as against 60-70 crores for imported ones and has far more benefits than what the imported aircraft offer,” said Dr Harsh Vardhan...

And there is the problem, a Do 228 is produced by HAL and TATA in India and has an indigenous content of 74% already.
Also the Do 228 is already a 19 seater, so we are basically trying to achieve and compete with what we already have and it will cost the tax payer at least 600 cores.

 

[ezsasa]

=>



And there is the problem, a Do 228 is produced by HAL and TATA in India and has an indigenous content of 74% already.
Also the Do 228 is already a 19 seater, so we are basically trying to achieve and compete with what we already have and it will cost the tax payer at least 600 cores.

You cannot modify Do 228, as per your requirements.
You have to take permission before you build new Do 228.

 

[Sancho]

You cannot modify Do 228, as per your requirements.
You have to take permission before you build new Do 228.

Like what? We added own senors by DRDO for maritime surveillance, HAL has upgraded the cockpit as far as I remember and as shown, wants to field it for civil aviation too. So what's left that actually would make Saras more worth it, than the Do 228 we already have now in production?

Back in the initial days, Saras surely had a point as replacement of foreign or licence produced aircrafts. But today our forces and our industry already benefits from new Do 228 orders as well as exports.
If they can make Saras as cheap as claimed, that would be a good point of course, but experience shows us, that indigenous developments starts initially at pretty high costs, so there must be more to make the investments worth it.

 

[Flame Thrower]

=>



And there is the problem, a Do 228 is produced by HAL and TATA in India and has an indigenous content of 74% already.
Also the Do 228 is already a 19 seater, so we are basically trying to achieve and compete with what we already have and it will cost the tax payer at least 600 cores.

No matter if 100% of Do-228 becomes indigenous, it still won't be Indian. If 600 crores is the cost of Indian plane so be it. If it can help revive Indian civil aviation, so be it. If GOI objectives on UDAN scheme can be achieved by Indian product, so be it. By the way, I want SARAS to be single pilot with military grade fly-by-wire, thus reducing the operating costs and cockpit space for one time investment.

How do you know that operational costs of Do-228 will be lesser than SARAS. Boeing and Airbus are spending billions just to improve 5-10% operational cost(go through about Dreamliner and NEO programs). A successful SARAS might even force other airliners to work with us in 70 seat project. Like once Tejas was inducted, everyone started to offer their best(or at least publicized to do so) do you care to disagree!!??

If 600 crores or less than $ 100 million is enough to start our civilian avaiation industry, I'd say heck spend more to make things better.

 

[Sancho]

No matter if 100% of Do-228 becomes indigenous, it still won't be Indian.

When it has the same indigenous content as Saras, you are paying 600 cores for an Indian name, but that's it.

By the way, I want SARAS to be single pilot with military grade fly-by-wire

For what purpose? IAF wants it as a trainer for transport aircrafts, besides the light transport role, just as civil airlines will require 2 pilots as well.

How do you know that operational costs of Do-228 will be lesser than SARAS.

Where did I said that? I even pointed out, that lower costs would be a reason to justify it, but that's not possible to say at this point without even a prototype available and if we look at other indigenous products like Akash or Arjun, we know that they are not cheap either.

If 600 crores or less than $ 100 million is enough to start our civilian avaiation industry,

You have a wrong idea about the potential for civil aviation in this light class, moreover when we already have a product from our industry right now, that is well esteblished in the market, you need more than an Indian name to sell it. When you have the choice of a 19 seater Do 228 from HAL, or a 19 seater Saras from HAL, why should any non military operator select Saras?

We need regional civil airliners, but in larger classes, that's why RTA 70 and 90 would had been great, or even a civil MTA as it was planned once.

 

[Flame Thrower]

When it has the same indigenous content as Saras, you are paying 600 cores for an Indian name, but that's it.

that's not all, an opportunity for industry to grow. When you already have an airframe built out, why not use it perfect it. Engineers and the baby's might have solid reason for going to SARAS, especially babus, they might have done their CBA very well. Engineers who are very talented and spent their ass off on to revive something for a reason. I'd rather have SARAS for that one reason than any little nothings giving reasons as a final verdict.

For what purpose? IAF wants it as a trainer for transport aircrafts, besides the light transport role, just as civil airlines will require 2 pilots as well.

this one I kind of not sure(as I am no expert). I always thought of training could be done through flight training module. The pilot would be no beginner either, as he'd go through basic training. @captscooby81 and @COLDHEARTED AVIATOR should be able to educate us whether it is good idea to go for FBW single pilot or two pilots. Well coming to single pilot, I thought of it after going through Avanti. I have to admit that the idea is not entirely genuine, but inspired from Avanti :biggrin2: :biggrin2:.

Where did I said that? I even pointed out, that lower costs would be a reason to justify it,

well you're not sure in your statement and that made me to point out low cost.

but that's not possible to say at this point without even a prototype available and if we look at other indigenous products like Akash or Arjun, we know that they are not cheap either.

oh, for F**** sake......please look at the industry behind the machine. It costs a lot more to setup industry than to build a prototype. Coming to Arjun, when CVDRE wanted to build the first prototype in the 70/80's there was no autoshop to create one, so CVDRE had to build a plant in Avadhi. The A/C of T-90s and many other subsystems going into T-90s and t-72 upgrade are going from the of Arjun project. So yeah, if we can get industry through 600 crore NAL SARAS and get other players more serious (and give us what we need for Money and no nonsense) about India developing 70 seat plane. Hell yeah I'd be glad as that money is being put to a good use.

You have a wrong idea about the potential for civil aviation in this light class, moreover when we already have a product from our industry right now, that is well esteblished in the market, you need more than an Indian name to sell it. When you have the choice of a 19 seater Do 228 from HAL, or a 19 seater Saras from HAL, why should any non military operator select Saras?

We need regional civil airliners, but in larger classes, that's why RTA 70 and 90 would had been great, or even a civil MTA as it was planned once.

I've asked for CBA on SARAS...

How about yours........what are your opinions and options for UDAN project and a hundred airports planned in this project.

 

[abingdonboy]

I wonder if they still plan on having a turbofan variant of RTA-70:

Some more reminders of RTA-70/90:

By the way, I want SARAS to be single pilot with military grade fly-by-wire, thus reducing the operating costs and cockpit space for one time investment.

For commercial flights this isn't possible, for commcerical flights regulators mandate 2 pilots.

In my opinion, RTA-70 is best suited to go into the fabrication of its prototypes once C-295 production gets stable at TATA. Airbus TATA JV will also be crucial in getting locally made designs europian certifications.

Very good point, C-295 assembly investment could be leveraged perfectly by TASL for RTA.

The cockpit looks modern enough.

Modern enough? It's as good as it gets on this class of aircraft! Certainly a lot better than some of its contempories.

Only the very latest wide body jets (A350 and 787) have superior cockpits IMHO.

=>



And there is the problem, a Do 228 is produced by HAL and TATA in India and has an indigenous content of 74% already.
Also the Do 228 is already a 19 seater, so we are basically trying to achieve and compete with what we already have and it will cost the tax payer at least 600 cores.

Where does it say 74% is the final target? As with most Indian projects the indigenious content will creep up year after year, 74% is the absolute limit HAL has been able to indigenise the Do-228 after decades. In 10 years Saras may be >85% indigenious.


Having the Saras will allow India to have a test bed for future systems (engines, radars, EO pods, ELINT/EW systems etc) without having to consult a foreign OEM, just like LCA India will be able to fully exploit the platform and do whatever it likes with it. A few years ago HAL had wanted to do a "NEO" version of the Do-228 but Dornier instead simply said that the Do-228NG was already there so it wasn't needed- notice HAL never persued the Do-228NG.


And what kind of thinking is this anyway, what's wrong with competition? The base price of a 737 is almost identical to the A320, does that mean there isn't a market for both? Does that mean only one should be ordered? This is the kind of thinking that has lead to having a HAL monopoly in the Indian aerospace industry.

The BEST part of Saras is that the civilian version (for which there is a far larger market than the mil version) will be made by a private sector entity, the ramfications of this cannot be understated nor truly understood today. If this Indian partner can be allowed to market the aircraft and subsequently offer MRO you've just created another aerospace giant in India.

HAL was never going to be able to maintain its market position, competition will help all sides.


For the small small price of 600cr India is laying the foundations for a future aerospace industry.

+ let's not forget that for EVERY Do-228 HAL produces (even if for export) it has to pay a licence payment to the German OEM, obviously this won't be the case for Saras.

we look at other indigenous products like Akash or Arjun, we know that they are not cheap either.

Akash isn't cheap?

+ Arjun would be about half the cost it currently is IF IA had commited to >500 units, that way almost all of its components that are bought off the shelf would've been localised- DRDO has said this on record. Who is to blame if the Arjun is expensive when only 124 units were ordered?

or even a civil MTA as it was planned once.

This would've been a disaster for sure, I am certain of that. Russian civil passenger planes have an atrocious record and being a converted mil transport would not have helped.

Besides, India needs to start thinking bigger, look at the size of its economy and where it will be in 10-15 years, cannot have a >$6TN economy and still be importing/licence building everything. China is about 20 years ahead of India in terms of its economic growth story and now unveiling (seemingly) world class passenger planes but this hasn't happened overnight, they have been investing in this R&D for decades and have completed a number of smaller projects just like Saras/NG, RTA 70/90.

France, Canada, UK (ish), Russia and Brazil all have economies smaller than India's but have world class aerospace industries, India should be left behind?

 

[tarunraju]

We can convert it into Business jet by adding turbo fans rather than turbo props.
Next stop is 70-100 seat regional aircraft.
Next military cargo plane with 10 ton capacity and scaling upto 60 tons.

The whole airframe has to be redesigned from scratch to handle the stress of faster turbofan propulsion with higher service ceiling.

India really does need to invest in development of at least an 80-100 seater turboprop that can compete with ATR72-600 and Bombardier Q400DH8, because that's where most of the UDAN traffic growth is projected.

Smaller turbofan aircraft such as the CRJ700, or even CS100 and Embraer E170 won't be cost-efficient for UDAN. You need cheap turboprops.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I wonder if they still plan on having a turbofan variant of RTA-70:

Right now, they will keep RTA-70 as a direct equivalent of ATR-72.At a later stage when they will design a 90-120 seat version. I believe a Turbofan variant will be developed but as an E2 & C-series equivalent.

Direct equivalents with less overall cost offer an attractive replacement. Which is the way I believe they will be able to break into these segments with relatively less trouble.

Modern enough? It's as good as it gets on this class of aircraft! Certainly a lot better than some of its contempories.

Only the very latest wide body jets (A350 and 787) have superior cockpits IMHO.

Since the pic was not clear I used that term. as a safe guess.

4x large MFDs are defenitely modern, however, control stick/yoke etc were not visible. So, I kept my reservations.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The whole airframe has to be redesigned from scratch to handle the stress of faster turbofan propulsion with higher service ceiling.

India really does need to invest in development of at least an 80-100 seater turboprop that can compete with ATR72-600 and Bombardier Q400DH8, because that's where most of the UDAN traffic growth is projected.

Smaller turbofan aircraft such as the CRJ700, or even CS100 and Embraer E170 won't be cost-efficient for UDAN. You need cheap turboprops.

SARAS forms a firm base for undertaking such a project.

Anyway, SARAS's role right now will be to perform feeder role connecting small cities with larger hubs for domestic and international passengers. In places like NE, Andaman & Nicobar, Lakshadweep etc it can be used for providing air travel options to tourists. In rest of the country, there is a huge requirement to connect pilgrimage centres in a cost-effective manner where SARAS will be helpful. Short haul flights are more effectively conducted by smaller turbofans than larger ones.

Besides the development of airport infrastructure is in itself is a costly endeavour and so are the charges on operators because of it. At least here SARAS will be able to justify its place in any airline.

 

[abingdonboy]

No you are going good dont come to India right now.

To become a pilot in India is ass drilling for a long time.

You will really have a very bad time specially coz of the life you are used to in England.

My advice for you would be to do what you are doing till you become a commander.

There are many options like you can go to gulf or asia but not until you atleast have a command.

That way you will be sought after.Like it or not FO have no respect anywhere.

CTE like @captscooby81 has explained is a training academy based in Hyderabad.Used to be a high hope for unemployed pilots to get a job after completing CTE training but now things have changed.But the training standards are very good and better than most academies in Europe.

Don't worry bro, that was my plan for sure. Staying here and first to get my ATPL unfrozen then do my time and see how long it takes to get command, I wouldn't want to relocate until I have had a command, like you said FO positions are less sought after and AFAIK seniority is more valued in Asia and the gulf.

Right now, they will keep RTA-70 as a direct equivalent of ATR-72

Huge market for this class of aircraft in India, Indigo only just got their first 72s and with UDAN coming up fast (already onto phase 2) the demand for medium size turboprops is only set to soar.

Do you reckon new regional airlines will be set up in India exclusively for these remote areas or the existing players will simply diversify further into the more regional model?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Do you reckon new regional airlines will be set up in India exclusively for these remote areas or the existing players will simply diversify further into the more regional model?

Air Odisha and Trujet are promising new operators. I guess many more will follow. Air Deccan also in same category but I don't trust the guy.

I wish GOI starts an airline just to make this segment popular with SARAS alone. It will be like two birds with one stone.

 

[abingdonboy]

I wish GOI starts an airline just to make this segment popular with SARAS alone. It will be like two birds with one stone.

Yeah I was thinking about that, it is a shame the GoI is getting out of the airline business just as domestic aerospace is starting to pick up so I seriosuly doubt they will be willing to create a new airline considering all the bad press Air India has got as a public entity.

Airlines are quite skittish in general so very risk adverse, having a govt airline that would assure of orders for Saras then build up fleet hours on the type would be a good confidence booster for the rest to follow. It may be quite a challenge to get the first few private operators to order the Saras, this is why I hope the private entity that makes the civil version of Saras is also given the task of marketing it.

The same goes for the RTA, by the time it is ready Air India may have only a nominal stake from the govt.