NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

[SanjeevM]

I saw a white color plane going toward HA, today while I was traveling via ulsoor. It looked similar to Nal Saris.

 

[Pandeyji]

Pushers have better wing-loading and engine efficiency than a puller, but they are inherently more unstable as the centre of gravity shifts to the rear. This can be overcome by digital authority controls, something lacking in earlier designs that were prone to accidents.

So does the plane has something akin to Fly-by-Wire system.

 

[Armand2REP]

So does the plane has something akin to Fly-by-Wire system.

No but it does have an EEC which is important to controlling the engine throttle balance and blade pitch. P2 did not have this when they did the engine shutdown causing it to crash. The new version has EEC as a fail-safe and to make it easier to fly.

 

[Trololo]

Does the Saras still have the flight engineer?

 

[Sancho]

Is there similar plane made and in service?

Do 228 takes up the place in our forces, by design / layout, the most comparable aircraft is the Piaggio P.180 Avanti:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.180_Avanti

What about using Saras for maritime petrol and ASW ?

Maritime patrol is an option, just as Do 228 will be used with an DRDO naval search radar under the fuselage:
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/img013.jpg


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/IN-232_Dornier_DO.228_Indian_Navy_(8413510937).jpg


The above mentioned Piaggio P.180 Avanti is also available in an MPA variant and currently under development as an unmanned MALE drone:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-92bdTWYtIqk/UrzXw3h5cII/AAAAAAAAjfc/OdnJUwUK6XY/s1600/mpa-zoom1.jpg

http://www.p1hh.piaggioaerospace.it/img/p1hh-zoom3.jpg

 

[Raj Malhotra]

Saras is needlessly over clever design with NO clear demand. Frankly we should have developed a 30 seater version of Dornier with pressurised cabin.

 

[Rahul Singh]

America and europe have abandoned pusher type configurations for passenger planes. They being prone to crash.I wonder why we are pursuing against odds. I dont mean to be critical of the project here just a question,

Piaggio P180 Avanti is up and flying successfully......... Besides cabin noise is also one reason for pusher configurations.

 

[Rahul Singh]

You are saying the most important factor is altitude, I am saying the most important factor is loiter time. The turbofans you mention loiter for extended periods, that is why they make good AEW.

IAF needs to look deep into Pakistan or Tibet while flying far away from the reach of any SAM deployed by enemy close to borders especially during initiating hours of a conflict--when DEAD missions are yet to be undertaken or to be completed.

In our context, the ceiling is important. Becuase it facilitates greatest possible range. If I am recalling right, DRDO is getting an extra engine onboard A330 as a standalone power generator for electronics. Interestingly, A330 will also come with have IFR capability for self and pods for refuelling its escort.........Tells what they are aiming at.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Saras is needlessly over clever design with NO clear demand. Frankly we should have developed a 30 seater version of Dornier with pressurised cabin.

IAF Embraer legacy fleet for VIP transport falls in SARAS category. A turbofan variant will only be a natural transformation of the present airframe.

Entire Dornier DO-228 fleet of Navy IAF and CG can be (theoretically) replaced by SARAS. Today there are 129 DO-228s in service(+on order) with services.

Civil operators like Air Odisha are operating Beechcraft 1900(on order) and Cessna 208. Both of these aircrafts have similar passenger capacity. If GOI chooses to push 'UDAN more aggressively by giving concessions and various subsidies to whosoever select SARAS, then I am sure SARAS sale will surge. Also, it's our own clean sheet design. Many improvements will follow. Users will be natural beneficiaries.

Lastly, Dornier is not HAL's own design. HAL has the license for only DO228. So, i don't think HAL can stretch its fuselage without getting RUAG involved. Which kinda itself will defeat the reason behind undertaking SARAS project. Designers and engineers need experience before undertaking 70-90 seter RTA.


Cessna 208

Beechcraft 1900

 

[Rahul Singh]

Does the Saras still have the flight engineer?

For Testing phase, yeah. Just like any other multiengine civil aircraft undergoing testing. Once certified engineer will go.

 

[Armand2REP]

IAF needs to look deep into Pakistan or Tibet while flying far away from the reach of any SAM deployed by enemy close to borders especially during initiating hours of a conflict--when DEAD missions are yet to be undertaken or to be completed.

The radars only have so much effective range. It doesn't matter if they are cruising at 27k or 33k feet, they will have enough horizon to use the radar to its full effect.

In our context, the ceiling is important. Becuase it facilitates greatest possible range. If I am recalling right, DRDO is getting an extra engine onboard A330 as a standalone power generator for electronics. Interestingly, A330 will also come with have IFR capability for self and pods for refuelling its escort.........Tells what they are aiming at.

Even the E-3 Sentry, the most powerful airbourne radar, has a max range of 320km, that only requires an altitude of 27,000ft. An A330 only has two engines, a standalone generator is required for all rotodome AWACs. It takes a good bit of power to turn it which is less power available for increasing range.

 

[Trololo]

The radars only have so much effective range. It doesn't matter if they are cruising at 27k or 33k feet, they will have enough horizon to use the radar to its full effect.



Even the E-3 Sentry, the most powerful airbourne radar, has a max range of 320km, that only requires an altitude of 27,000ft. An A330 only has two engines, a standalone generator is required for all rotodome AWACs. It takes a good bit of power to turn it which is less power available for increasing range.

A couple of externally mounted ram air turbines might help.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

We should have started this much earlier. We lost the time. Now we should ask TATA advance system to make it for India.

 

[Rahul Singh]

We should have started this much earlier. We lost the time. Now we should ask TATA advance system to make it for India.

Considering TATA will take up the challenge. Which i doubt unless order book swells considerably. So to start, HAL Kanpur division is the only option. Tier-1 manufacturing at TATA is very feasible though

If PT-2 had not crashed SARAS would have joined IAF at least couple of years ago.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if NAL modifies SARAS into a 35-45 seater aircraft targetting a very lucrative segment in the airline business. A very obvious next step; stretching the present design. RTA with 70-90 seats along with SARAS MK-2 with 19 seats and SARAS MK-3 with 35-45 seats makes a complete package for any airline interested in 'Regional' segment. Fortunately, India will see exponential growth in this segment in coming years. So time is not entirely lost considering they speed up the development and marketing is done in accordance with potential demand.

Subsidised per unit cost, flexible lease terms, Tax subsidies to any operator which buys SARAS in considerable numbers, excellent support facility from HAL etc. These will definitely help in boosting SARAS's commercial future.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I hope RTA team is considering these two as two different designs not as substitutes like earlier. Developing top one as E-190-2 series / C-series equivalent and bottom one as ATR-72 equivalent. There is a very large market for said categories. If GOI is serious then it should go all hog. Pour money, create a consortium and if necessary start one more National Carrier just for introducing these jets into the market.

 

[kstriya]

Considering TATA will take up the challenge. Which i doubt unless order book swells considerably. So to start, HAL Kanpur division is the only option. Tier-1 manufacturing at TATA is very feasible though

If PT-2 had not crashed SARAS would have joined IAF at least couple of years ago.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if NAL modifies SARAS into a 35-45 seater aircraft targetting a very lucrative segment in the airline business. A very obvious next step; stretching the present design. RTA with 70-90 seats along with SARAS MK-2 with 19 seats and SARAS MK-3 with 35-45 seats makes a complete package for any airline interested in 'Regional' segment. Fortunately, India will see exponential growth in this segment in coming years. So time is not entirely lost considering they speed up the development and marketing is done in accordance with potential demand.

Subsidised per unit cost, flexible lease terms, Tax subsidies to any operator which buys SARAS in considerable numbers, excellent support facility from HAL etc. These will definitely help in boosting SARAS's commercial future.

The pusher format of SARAS will be viable or optimum for a large regional aircraft like 70 to 90 seats? What is the he advantage of the pusher layout than the conventional one.. sincerely I am too excited for an indigenous aircraft which will have both civilian and military use.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Considering TATA will take up the challenge. Which i doubt unless order book swells considerably. So to start, HAL Kanpur division is the only option. Tier-1 manufacturing at TATA is very feasible though

If PT-2 had not crashed SARAS would have joined IAF at least couple of years ago.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if NAL modifies SARAS into a 35-45 seater aircraft targetting a very lucrative segment in the airline business. A very obvious next step; stretching the present design. RTA with 70-90 seats along with SARAS MK-2 with 19 seats and SARAS MK-3 with 35-45 seats makes a complete package for any airline interested in 'Regional' segment. Fortunately, India will see exponential growth in this segment in coming years. So time is not entirely lost considering they speed up the development and marketing is done in accordance with potential demand.

Subsidised per unit cost, flexible lease terms, Tax subsidies to any operator which buys SARAS in considerable numbers, excellent support facility from HAL etc. These will definitely help in boosting SARAS's commercial future.

Actually when I saw a TV program, of some 14 or 15, They said that TATA was manufacturing frames of US choppers and some other civilian planes and a fly away plane from TATA stable was to emerge in 2016. It has not happened till date.

 

[proud_indian]

Considering TATA will take up the challenge. Which i doubt unless order book swells considerably. So to start, HAL Kanpur division is the only option. Tier-1 manufacturing at TATA is very feasible though

If PT-2 had not crashed SARAS would have joined IAF at least couple of years ago.

Anyway, it will be interesting to see if NAL modifies SARAS into a 35-45 seater aircraft targetting a very lucrative segment in the airline business. A very obvious next step; stretching the present design. RTA with 70-90 seats along with SARAS MK-2 with 19 seats and SARAS MK-3 with 35-45 seats makes a complete package for any airline interested in 'Regional' segment. Fortunately, India will see exponential growth in this segment in coming years. So time is not entirely lost considering they speed up the development and marketing is done in accordance with potential demand.

Subsidised per unit cost, flexible lease terms, Tax subsidies to any operator which buys SARAS in considerable numbers, excellent support facility from HAL etc. These will definitely help in boosting SARAS's commercial future.

The production variant of Saras MK-1 itself will be 19 seater, so we don't need MK-2 for that.

TOI: Sara’s weight has been a concern, it is still overweight.? Jadhav: You are right, the 14-seater aircraft now weighs about 7,100-kg, about 500-kg more. But since all that we were doing was retro-modifications, we could not carry implement weight optimisation. But everything has been planned and when we make the production version, which will be a 19-seater, the aircraft see a weight reduction of about 500kg to 600kg, we are confident about it. But the overall weight, with the passengers and fuel will be over 7,000kg.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/nal-confident-of-desi-civil-aircraft-project-taking-off/ .

 

[Tanmay]

Actually when I saw a TV program, of some 14 or 15, They said that TATA was manufacturing frames of US choppers and some other civilian planes and a fly away plane from TATA stable was to emerge in 2016. It has not happened till date.

They do manufacture. Fly away planes and helos only when India orders for military I guess. The Navy Medium Helicopter is one such large order..

Else making fly away systems in a country which doesn't order them Is useless. Especially when these JVs were made with the lucrative view of MMRCA order . Which was finally fked up.

Tata Sikorsky
http://googleweblight.com/i?u=http:...-helicopter-cabin/article5267845.ece&hl=en-IN

Tata Boeing
http://googleweblight.com/i?u=http:...es.php&hl=en-IN&tg=212&tk=5162047446356829471

 

[Rahul Singh]

The production variant of Saras MK-1 itself will be 19 seater, so we don't need MK-2 for that.

TOI: Sara’s weight has been a concern, it is still overweight.? Jadhav: You are right, the 14-seater aircraft now weighs about 7,100-kg, about 500-kg more. But since all that we were doing was retro-modifications, we could not carry implement weight optimisation. But everything has been planned and when we make the production version, which will be a 19-seater, the aircraft see a weight reduction of about 500kg to 600kg, we are confident about it. But the overall weight, with the passengers and fuel will be over 7,000kg.

idrw.org .Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website http://idrw.org/nal-confident-of-desi-civil-aircraft-project-taking-off/ .

India’s 19-seater dream will be Saras Mk-2

PT-IN flight data will inspire NAL to prepare the DPR (detail project report) for India’s much-awaited 19-seater passenger plane – Saras Mk2.

The Saras Mk2 will have additional five more seats and a toilet as compared to the PT1N. It will also have gen-next avionics and glass cockpit, autopilot and other features any modern passenger turboprop could boast off.

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/mobi...ll-set-for-maiden-flight-in-january-1.2483386