Mortar Systems

[cobra commando]

Patria - Nemo Navy 120mm Turreted Mortar System On Watercat M12 Landing Craft

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-O_CirtaJdA

 

[cobra commando]

Elbit Systems to present
latest autonomous SOLTAM
SPEAR Recoil Mortar System
for 4x4 vehicle.

Elbit Systems to present latest autonomous SOLTAM SPEAR Recoil Mortar System for 4x4 vehicle 1905141---Army Recognition

 

[Bhadra]

120 mm Mortars are essentially vehicle / carrier based weapons..

Hence can be used where roads exists or in plain / deserts.

Being a high trajectory weapon - easy to be detected. - sure to attract counter mortar fires quickly.

Being high trajectory weapons , useful in engaging target behind hills but at the same time less accurate.

Has very less range - barely 10 km - hence frequent redeployments and dangers of close battle field.

Has more safety distances - hence not very good for close covering fires and close support.

Can not carry very heavy warhead hence not very damaging against fortifications.

Can not be man packed but can be mule packed but then limitations of quantity of ammunition.

Can not be man packed hence not usefull for infantry and difficult terrains that exists in India.

With the advent of howitzers where guns can fire in high angles - this weapon has almost lost utility.

Delivers less explosive per manpower !!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Have you ever see the difference between 81mm and a 120mm in action ..

Lots of things you said are not true ..

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Mortars are one of the oldest forms of artillery, evolving from devices that fired stone projectiles a few hundred meters to become a mainstay of any modern army's arsenal. Benét Laboratories is continuing this evolution by tweaking the 120-mm mortar system currently used by the US Army to increase range, reduce weight, improve user safety and cut costs.

Located in upstate New York, Benét Laboratories is the US Army's primary design, development, engineering and production & field support facility for large caliber armament systems, including cannons, recoilless rifles and mortars. In an effort to retain a competitive edge on the battlefield, a team led by Wayland Barber, chief of the Mortars and Recoilless Rifle Branch at Benét Labs, has developed a number of upgrades to the 120-mm mortar system currently fielded by the US Army.

The redesign sees the fire control system (FCS), which is currently attached to the tube, moved to the mortar's bipod. Benét Labs says this will reduce the amount of stress and movement the FCS is subjected to during a fire mission and help improve accuracy.

Redesign to improve safety and lethality of 120-mm mortar system for US Army

Also improvement in baseplate stability and tube strength discussed at link.

 

[Bhadra]

Have you ever see the difference between 81mm and a 120mm in action ..

Lots of things you said are not true ..

List of things I said are not true ? But Why ?

That is why IA have discarded 120 mm Calibre of Mortars as one of its Artillary calibre except for a few !!

81 mm is a different story !

 

[Bhadra]

MO-120-RT-61 | S.O.G

On the other hand, standard 120 mm mortars are a tougher nut to crack. They weigh several hundred kilograms, so they cannot be transported by hand, and require a 4×4 or an armored car for towing. When we talk about their effectiveness, we have to mention their operating principle. Mortars use high-elevation ballistic trajectories (angles over 45 degs).

There are some significant drawbacks, as well. The first one is the incomparably shorter range,

while the second one is the greater circular error probable (CEP) for the given range, due to the mortars' smoothbore barrel.

The French defense industry, generally regarded very innovative and imaginative, have taken a different approach. The idea was simple – why shouldn't we combine the rifled barrel of guns and howitzers with the basic mortar design? This idea was conceived back in the 60s and was embodied in the Thompson-Brandt MO-120-RT-61 mortar, which entered the service in 1973.

.............. However, the general shortcoming of all smoothbore mortars is the precision, or the circular error probable. For example, Krusik M74, which has appeared at the same time as the MO-120-RT-61, has the deviation of range of 40 m and the deviation of azimuth of 12 m at the range of 5,374 m, which is more than the killing range of the shell.

.......... drawback of a rifled mortar is the lower rate of fire, as the loader must align the indents of every shell with the groves inside the barrel ....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In Indian context they are also carried by mules, These are heavy systems but not essentially vehicle carried ..

120 mm Mortars are essentially vehicle / carrier based weapons..

Hence can be used where roads exists or in plain / deserts.

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Any mortar or arty piece accuracy depends upon various elements including range, Being a high trajectory weapon you can target a streets in mist of building but cannot do the same with an arty, 10-12km is actually a good range when compare other mortar such as 81mm has 8kms or max 10 ..

Anything makes a bang can be detected ..

Being a high trajectory weapon - easy to be detected. - sure to attract counter mortar fires quickly.

Being high trajectory weapons , useful in engaging target behind hills but at the same time less accurate.

Has very less range - barely 10 km - hence frequent redeployments and dangers of close battle field.

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Its design for destruction of enemy fortifications, 120mm specialized in destroying buildings and concrete infrastructure where 81mm is not good enough ..

120mm HE Shells have more or less same dispersion as of 155mm ..

Has more safety distances - hence not very good for close covering fires and close support.

Can not carry very heavy warhead hence not very damaging against fortifications.

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81mm are carried by man but not practical carrying it for longer ranges, In such case both systems are carried by mules, More ammo are deliver by more mules ..

Can not be man packed but can be mule packed but then limitations of quantity of ammunition.

Can not be man packed hence not usefull for infantry and difficult terrains that exists in India.

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Howitzers cannot be placed over 4-5000ms by help of mules or single engined helicopters, Nor cannot be placed over very small areas at higher altitudes, There is where 120mm comes into picture ..

With the advent of howitzers where guns can fire in high angles - this weapon has almost lost utility.

Delivers less explosive per manpower !!

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120mm is being under Infantry along with 81mm mortar ..

That is why IA have discarded 120 mm Calibre of Mortars as one of its Artillary calibre except for a few !!

81 mm is a different story !

 

[Kunal Biswas]

CARRIER MORTAR TRACKED VEHICLE -81

 

[Bhadra]

In Indian context they are also carried by mules, These are heavy systems but not essentially vehicle carried ..

Mules means limited availability of ammunition. For a defensive battle that problem can be overcome but for offensive battles consisting of forward movenet and manouveres, there is a problem.

Any mortar or arty piece accuracy depends upon various elements including range,

But it has dispersion as wide as that of 155 mm with lesser range and lesser expolsive content. So what would one like to fire.

Being a high trajectory weapon you can target a streets in mist of building but cannot do the same with an arty, 10-12km is actually a good range when compare other mortar such as 81mm has 8kms or max 10 ..

This street fetish is western post conventional war era phenomenon wherein the US armies are contemplated to enegage more and more in COIN and low intensity conflict rather than classical conventional wars. Otherwise streets do not matter except when the attacker is envolved in capture of cities / towns. In that case street clearance will be matter of CQB.

Anything makes a bang can be detected ..

yes, if it makes two bangs, even the better !

Its design for destruction of enemy fortifications, 120mm specialized in destroying buildings and concrete infrastructure where 81mm is not good enough ..

Not "designed" but it has more explosive hence can do some destruction.

120mm HE Shells have more or less same dispersion as of 155mm .

.

Same dispersion with less explosive. That is not good

81mm are carried by man but not practical carrying it for longer ranges, In such case both systems are carried by mules, More ammo are deliver by more mules ..

Suitable for mountains

Howitzers cannot be placed over 4-5000ms by help of mules or single engined helicopters, Nor cannot be placed over very small areas at higher altitudes, There is where 120mm comes into picture ..

Howitzers have larger and longer ranges hence those can support an operation from far away Road Heads. That is the difference.

120mm is being under Infantry along with 81mm mortar ..

120 mm for Infantry has been adopted by western and US armies where infantry is either track based or wheel based. In India there are hardly any areas where Infantry will be perpetually wheel based or track based. In case it is 120 mm Mortar equipped, then there are going to be problems.

You must be knowing how many B vehicles are required to support one 120 mm battery !!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its difficult indeed, But not impossible you should learn about Kargil War when there were no Arty support the motars including 120mm moved constantly around the terrain for fire-support ..

Mules means limited availability of ammunition. For a defensive battle that problem can be overcome but for offensive battles consisting of forward movenet and manouveres, there is a problem.

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The shells explosive power is not so destructive against personal compare to the dispersion of shrapnel ..

But it has dispersion as wide as that of 155 mm with lesser range and lesser expolsive content. So what would one like to fire.

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In indian context an example can be valleys, Mountain passes ..

This street fetish is western post conventional war era phenomenon wherein the US armies are contemplated to enegage more and more in COIN and low intensity conflict rather than classical conventional wars. Otherwise streets do not matter except when the attacker is envolved in capture of cities / towns. In that case street clearance will be matter of CQB.

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Yeah that is true, But what i said before does not change ..

Howitzers have larger and longer ranges hence those can support an operation from far away Road Heads. That is the difference

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I am talking about IA, You should visit ..

120 mm for Infantry has been adopted by western and US armies where infantry is either track based or wheel based. In India there are hardly any areas where Infantry will be perpetually wheel based or track based. In case it is 120 mm Mortar equipped, then there are going to be problems.

You must be knowing how many B vehicles are required to support one 120 mm battery !!

 

[W.G.Ewald]

[PDF]http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/121957.pdf[/PDF]

 

[W.G.Ewald]

The USAF publishes joint munitions effectiveness manuals (JMEMs) for all surface-to-surface weapons to include mortars. These manuals provide detailed data concerning the expected fraction of casualties to personnel targets or damage to materiel targets given the number and type of rounds fired. JMEMs are published for Army use as field manuals. FM 6-141-1 lists all current JMEMs. The data in JMEMs are taken from test firings, actual combat performance, and mathematical modeling.

FM 7-90: Tactical Employment of Mortars - Appendix B

 

[Bhadra]

FM 7-90: Tactical Employment of Mortars - Appendix B

Sir,

Waht is good for Goose is not necessarily good for Genders !

US Army has a very different role to perform - world wide and the roles envisaged are also different.

US doctrines and US forces eqiped to fulfill the objecive of those doctrine need not necessarily apply to a developing country and their Army !!

Every one needs to cater for their requirements and needs.

 

[Bhadra]

Its difficult indeed, But not impossible [/quite]

Well while the war is a study of possibles why should Army as a matter of doctrines and theory work be equipped for impossibles rather than possibles.

you should learn about Kargil War when there were no Arty suppor

Then you should learn why there was no Arty ?? And how did Arty (specially 155 Bofors) moved in and played a vital role. That is what is matter of learning and not that Indian Army should depend on 120 mm Mortarats and not howitzers.

the motars including 120mm moved constantly around the terrain for fire-support ..

Why did that situation arose ??

You are trying to argue in favour of wrong thing.

The shells explosive power is not so destructive against personal compare to the dispersion of shrapnel ..

you have changed your previous line of argements. Just a few post agao you were advocating destructive power of 120 mm shell against fortifications and buildings and built up areas. Now you suddenly latch on the dispersion of sharpnells.

you are treating me with kid gloves and trying to advocate impossibles.

When one says the dispersion of 120 mm is as good as that of 155mm, what is implied is the dispersion of battery fire and not sharplnels.

Dispersionals of sharpenells of all mortars is always greater than any gun or howitzer shells because of the thickness or thinness of the casings of the shells vis a vis the explosive content of the shells.

This is very very basics and do not argue against it.

In indian context an example can be valleys, Mountain passes

For the first time I amy agree with you.

But the efforts required for 120 mm Mortarts as comapred to 81 mm Mortarts are enormous.

You must know what it takes to fire 120 mm Mortar per unit as comared to 81 mm Mortars ?? And what is the end result to the efforts ? By the way 81 mm Mortar shell has far better or more sharpnels and disperssion than 120 mm.

But what i said before does not change ..

Hard core prejudice....

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Sir,

Waht is good for Goose is not necessarily good for Genders !

US Army has a very different role to perform - world wide and the roles envisaged are also different.

US doctrines and US forces eqiped to fulfill the objecive of those doctrine need not necessarily apply to a developing country and their Army !!

Every one needs to cater for their requirements and needs.

The FM I cited had info about lethal burst radius of mortar projectiles. That would seem to be universally relevant.

Other references here:

FM 7-90: Tactical Employment of Mortars - References

 

[Kunal Biswas]

And that is why IA is operating 120mm at those altitudes where a 155mm cannot be deployed ..

Well while the war is a study of possibles why should Army as a matter of doctrines and theory work be equipped for impossibles rather than possibles.]

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I never said what you said, Nor i am saying 120mm in Arty units but Infantry units back in 1999 ..

120mm were used by Infantry units in absence of Arty units in early days of operation when there were no Arty cover was provided for Infantry, 120mm were used effectively and moved around constantly with help of mules and trucks of Infantry units, There is nothing wrong what i said ..

Then you should learn why there was no Arty ?? And how did Arty (specially 155 Bofors) moved in and played a vital role. That is what is matter of learning and not that Indian Army should depend on 120 mm Mortarats and not howitzers.

You are trying to argue in favour of wrong thing.

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I haven't change anything in my argument but add few more things, 120mm is equally good as 155mm and even better, It has same dispersion as 155mm and has good destructive capacity against concrete emplacement against 81mm shells not 155mm in this case ..

you have changed your previous line of argements. Just a few post agao you were advocating destructive power of 120 mm shell against fortifications and buildings and built up areas. Now you suddenly latch on the dispersion of sharpnells.

you are treating me with kid gloves and trying to advocate impossibles.

When one says the dispersion of 120 mm is as good as that of 155mm, what is implied is the dispersion of battery fire and not sharplnels.

Dispersionals of sharpenells of all mortars is always greater than any gun or howitzer shells because of the thickness or thinness of the casings of the shells vis a vis the explosive content of the shells.

This is very very basics and do not argue against it.

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That is very debatable topic, Way of dispersion is more or less same so does the radius ..

By the way 81 mm Mortar shell has far better or more sharpnels and disperssion than 120 mm.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

"SPEAR" Mortar System

 

[Broccoli]

NEMO NAVY.
Patria Nemo Navy - YouTube

NEMO simulator.
Patria Nemo Training Simulator video - YouTube

 

[Zebra]

Patria's twin-barreled AMOS - 120mm mortar