Morality

Can Morality exist without a Supreme Force


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Suryavanshi

Cheeni KLPDhokebaaz
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Hello I have this hypothesis that I want to discuss along with you people.

Hypotheses.

"There is no right and wrong without God"

Human society can't dictate what is right and wrong without keeping god in context.


The topic is open to everyone religious/non religious.
 

Suryavanshi

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My purpose of creating this thread is not intended to dab on all the atheist folks out there neither I am trying to justify my spirituality and belief in god.
I made this thread purely based on my mind impulse and a attempt at logical reasoning.
No doubt I am religious but this thread is just an attempt to test a philosophical hypothesis.
 

Suryavanshi

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I will now begin.
Right now the picture I want to present is very vague in my mind but I am hoping that people will get my point once this thread takes off.

I will try to better explain my hypo with an examples that make up the theory.

Example:

This Guy




His name is Gengiz Khan

He has killed many people, so many that he had reduced carbon footprint of the world.
He has Raped many women as well documented.
He has burned many cities killing women, children, elderly.

This is as bad as a person can be.

Did he go to jail? no!
Did he pay for his crime? no!
He had the power so he did it nothing on earth ever asked him to pay for his deeds.

Even to this say our justice system fails to punish Criminals some Criminals never get caught and even those are caught get proven not guilty.


Conclusion: why should anyone follow law and abide by the rule of good and evil, right and wrong if there is no guarantee that the person will pay for his bad/evil/wrong deeds?

Now Don't go on saying "Oh so why don't u return to the jungle where there are no law and order".

Chill This is just a hypo that I want to discuss
 

nWo 4 Life

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Well, I would agree with the hypothesis. Along with the complexity and existence of the universe, the fact that human beings have a moral nature points toward there being a perfectly moral God. Without a God who is the source of morality, morality is just a matter of opinion.
 

Suryavanshi

Cheeni KLPDhokebaaz
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Now Where does God come in all of this?

God here has the job of enforcing right and wrong.

its vague but I will explain more after I get your input.




Again let me clarify I am not justifying murder/rape/arson/theft I just want to discuss a what if situation don't judge me.
1624871529989.png
 

HitmanBlood

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Hello I have this hypothesis that I want to discuss along with you people.

Hypotheses.

"There is no right and wrong without God"

Human society can't dictate what is right and wrong without keeping god in context.


The topic is open to everyone religious/non religious.
Very interesting topic.

"There is no right and wrong without God"

As a former atheist I would expand this by saying,

There is no morality without religion. There is no truth without belief.

Our existence on this planet isn't just material but spiritual as well. Animals are beings of material impulses. Humans are more complicated. We need matrial things to survive but we need validation for our existence. Say a prisoner in jail who gets washed clothes and 3 meals a day isn't a fulfilled person. Fulfillment can only come from a validation both in society and inside that person's mind.

Validation is a reaffirmation of righteous acts. For example a thief who steals money for a living may engage in acts that proves his righteousness to not just himself but society in order to get validation. We can say giving money to poor is a righteous act but how do we define it. There is no objective logic in giving money to poor. Infact its anti-logic. Yet we act aginst objectivity to be righteous.

Righteous is a concept in morality. This is right that is wrong comes from our moral compass. However just like animals humans too can become an impulsive creature that may lose sense of morality. Or such impulses may point moral compass in different direction for different person. How do we know what I think is right is also what you think. In such scenario everyone chases their own impulses and fabric of society can't exist.

So what we need is a universal moral policy that is understood by everyone and agreed by everyone. This comes from a universal philosophy that creates rules of what is acceptable and what isn't. A moral guidence provider. In every civilization this guidance comes from religion.

Religion isn't just realisation of higher power (God) but rather a way of coexisting with rules of that higher power (God). Religion is clear about right and wrong. What is acceptable and what isn't. There is no ambiguity of impulsive mind of humans. This realisation of higher authority gives higher purpose to humans to not just live but to transcend beyond their natural animalistic impulses for a higher, a more noble purpose than oneself.

There are stict rules and regulations for followers in religion. Such as fasts, celibacy, sacrifice, etc. All to reach a person to control his or her impulses. However to have this control over human life there must be a comman belief in truth of religion. Belief is something the truth that is needed to prove one's righteousness.

There is lot of discussion in this form regarding western degeneracy. Where does it come from? How can a society accept sexualization of their children? The answer is lack of belief in higher truth. They have caved into their animalistic impulses where difference between right and wrong depends on everyone's personal interpretation.

Eg.
A crack-head would say: "I think its right thing to do drugs, if you don't think its right then don't do it." in absence of a universal moral compass, you can't stop them or even argue because your interpretation is only limited to yourself. In a religious society person can say you can't do drugs because our religion doesn't allow. Here you see a universal moral compass. Here you have an argument and even a reason to stop them from their immoral act.

You said
Human society can't dictate what is right and wrong without keeping god in context.

I agree with you as concept of a higher power (God) is extremely important to form a society. If we just let everyone live in their own impulses that would create a friction among opposing views and the society will be destroyed.
 

ketaki

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well, that is why there should be strict enforcement of law...

justice is only served by force...not by god's will

morality is a different topic and is always changing... in medieval times it was perfectly moral to own - trade slaves and be kind to them aka not to torture and kill them- not to let them sleep hungry etc etc

today even thinking of slavery being introduced is NONO
 

nWo 4 Life

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well, that is why there should be strict enforcement of law...

justice is only served by force...not by god's will

morality is a different topic and is always changing... in medieval times it was perfectly moral to own - trade slaves and be kind to them aka not to torture and kill them- not to let them sleep hungry etc etc

today even thinking of slavery being introduced is NONO
Yes, but there are certain objective moral truths that exist independent of whether society or people follow them or not. Objective moral values relate to what is good or bad. For example, it is objectively good to help a fellow human being and help him flourish, whereas it is objectively bad to cause suffering for its own sake. These values are objective because even if individuals or even a society think it is good to increase suffering, they are simply mistaken.

Alongside objective moral values, objective moral duties are commands we must obey, such as “Help your fellow human” or “Do not torture a child for fun.” These duties are objective because our opinions do not change our obligation to follow these commands.
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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I think , anu religion can indeed support morality plus various rituals are there to maintain the sancity of traditional practices.
Take garuda puran , it has pret kanda where all the types of punishment 24 in total are given there.
The incentives to attain swarg are also there , when these things are recited to a group of people they become afraid and don't take any life ruining decisions hence morality and traditions are maintained.
 

ketaki

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Yes, but there are certain objective moral truths that exist independent of whether society or people follow them or not. Objective moral values relate to what is good or bad. For example, it is objectively good to help a fellow human being and help him flourish, whereas it is objectively bad to cause suffering for its own sake. These values are objective because even if individuals or even a society think it is good to increase suffering, they are simply mistaken.

Alongside objective moral values, objective moral duties are commands we must obey, such as “Help your fellow human” or “Do not torture a child for fun.” These duties are objective because our opinions do not change our obligation to follow these commands.
nothing...i repeat, nothing in the world is absolute/objective

everything is relative/subjective

example: it is objectively good to help a fellow human being and help him flourish/ Help your fellow human-- "can i help hitler to establish his nazi empire and help it flourish into 1000 year reich?"

Do not torture a child for fun-- "what if I travel back in time and get my hands on still child hitler/aurangzeb/timur?"
 

nWo 4 Life

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nothing...i repeat, nothing in the world is absolute/objective

everything is relative/subjective

example: it is objectively good to help a fellow human being and help him flourish/ Help your fellow human-- "can i help hitler to establish his nazi empire and help it flourish into 1000 year reich?"

Do not torture a child for fun-- "what if I travel back in time and get my hands on still child hitler/aurangzeb/timur?"
The problem with your argument is that you are using what if hypotheticals which consequently, creates paradoxes.

If you eliminate baby Hitler and prevent the rise of the Nazis, then you create a world where WWII didn't occur, and thus you have no reason to travel back in time. It's a paradox. If you murder Hitler in, say, 1938, then the Second World War will never come about and you will have no reason to travel back in time to murder Hitler, and apart from reason, all knowledge of that reason (why you needed to kill Hitler) would also disappear. So, we're back to square one. The time travel argument, is hence, not a very good one.
 

ketaki

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ok...then lets take simple example

"it is objectively good to help a fellow human being and help him flourish/ Help your fellow human"

a gangster asks me help him rob a bank so that he can flourish his resources to help his fellow gang members
 

Maharaj samudragupt

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ok...then lets take simple example

"it is objectively good to help a fellow human being and help him flourish/ Help your fellow human"

a gangster asks me help him rob a bank so that he can flourish his resources to help his fellow gang members
Yes this argument indeed checkmates nWo 4 life's argument .
Here you have see the karm of the gangster , he is doing something bad which is not good plus robbing and stealing are uNiversally abhorrent in most cases , but you don't know about the money of which is deposited in the bank that whether it's good money or haram ka paisa since you don't know it.
Hence you stop from doing what you perceive I perceive we all perceive is wrong is stealing .
 

nWo 4 Life

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ok...then lets take simple example

"it is objectively good to help a fellow human being and help him flourish/ Help your fellow human"

a gangster asks me help him rob a bank so that he can flourish his resources to help his fellow gang members
Helping your fellow human being is not the only moral law that comes from God. Stealing, killing people, causing them harm, raping, etc are all evil acts and things that we should not do. Like I said, there are objective moral values and objective moral duties or commands that we are supposed to follow.

If everything was subjective, then you wouldn't have a good reason to not help that robber. According to your worldview, stealing might be wrong, according to his worldview it may be correct. But there are certain objective moral values and commands that exist independent of whether individuals may believe in them or not.

Even if a gang of criminals decide that stealing and enriching themselves may be good, that won't make the act of stealing correct in itself.
 

nWo 4 Life

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Hence you stop from doing what you perceive I perceive we all perceive is wrong is stealing .
And how do we ALL perceive that stealing is wrong? Because we are moral human beings who receive moral values from God. If stealing was subjective, then you couldn't really say that it is wrong. You may think it's wrong, but someone else may think it is good, because he derives personal pleasure from it. Since it is subjective, there will be no reason to conclude that your opinion should matter more than his.

But because stealing, murder, rape etc are objectively evil acts, it will be considered as such even if some individuals will not consider it so and partake in it.
 

Suryavanshi

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@hit&run

Can u merge the current thread and this one.


This will be our thread to evolution of mortality and it's context in the light of God.
 

hit&run

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@hit&run

Can u merge the current thread and this one.


This will be our thread to evolution of mortality and it's context in the light of God.
The following thread is now active. It has got an embedded poll as well.
Please also suggest if the title of the thread needs to be changed.

 

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