Modernisation of Indian Army Infantry

[N4tsula67]

Indian Army has been using AK Pattern rifles for decades, whats the deal?

That doesn't mean you can say the whole atmnirbhar plan is just big jhoomla lol. Upto some extent ur right about the amethi thing was a political stunt to some extent but the whole program of indigenization military equipments and arms is not a jhoomla for sure.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

Army's new headquarters looks like a fancy IT company building.

LoL Yes it does look like that I have noticed that as well. I don’t understand why the army didn’t use some practical designs instead of this IT Park looking building. It looks way to small to me to be a Army General Headquarters.

 

[ezsasa]

Indian Army has been using AK Pattern rifles for decades, whats the deal?

1) Evolution of military tactics and equipment happens when the nation is consistently involved in wars, our wars are so far apart , limited and mostly of defensive nature that they don't create fresh funding for evolution.

2) Up until economic liberalisation in 1990 the nation hardly had money to fill the stomachs of all the people, let alone funding for military upgrades. Prior to kargil war, Indian policy or rather Congress policy is as explained in the yes minister clip. Sir Humprey is congress and their babus.

3) Only after kargil the realisation came about that there is a space for conventional warfare under the nuclear umbrella. hence the IGMD programme along with LCA Tejas inspite of being under sanctions.

4) Under the sanctions, nation decided to focus on big items like space tech first.

5) Private defence sector is the key to military modernisation. it will take a few years for them to establish themselves. keep in mind some of them will be weeded out, especially the ones who do not have long term plans.

This process will take atleast a decade, in the mean while hopefully people keep electing political parties which have national security as a core priority. one bad govt in between, all the gains in modernisation done in past 4-5 years will vanish in a jiffy.

 

[FalconSlayers]

That doesn't mean you can say the whole atmnirbhar plan is just big jhoomla lol. Upto some extent ur right about the amethi thing was a political stunt to some extent but the whole program of indigenization military equipments and arms is not a jhoomla for sure.

For that you need to promote private sector, I am a Modi supporter, but I do criticise him if his government does wrong.

Astr Defence’s Modular Firearm was offered, but no interest by Army and was probably rejected, Army should have worked together with the company to make it fit for Army requirements and would have given large orders for this Rifle but it wasn’t. How are you supporting them then? I guess the company has been dissolved as it doesn’t have its own social media page or website because the company no more exists as they might have lost hope for their weapons.

what kind of support is being given to private firms then?
They make, they don’t get support, they collapse.
Its not USA where big companies peg their arms and a single rejection doesn’t make much of difference as there are civilian buyers not like India.

And why tf are we still using 7.62x39? We should be using 5.56 to replace INSAS as you can’t replace a 5.56 gun with 7.62, you are going for war not a CICT op.

Astr Defence’s gun could have done better with some support which wasn’t given.
That’s why I don’t have expectations. Indian Army has trialled the snipers of SSS Defence or not IDK, but its fukin year since these were made public.

LCH is ready but no order given to HAL, which is the most urgent requirement against China as it is the only helicopter in the world that can fight with full payload and fuel in Ladakh and siachen and none of chinese attack helis can operate with full capabilities at these heights and LCH is the need of the hour but it is ignored, and HAL had to start production with its own funds.

this is what vocal for local is? After giving all weapons to the Army already?
Tonbo Imaging’s first customers were foreign countries, MKU’s first customers were foreign countries not India as Indian Army and MoD never paid attention to them, only after they noticed that NATO countries are buying their equipment, only then Tonbo and MKU started receiving orders from the Army.

 

[Killbot]

For that you need to promote private sector, I am a Modi supporter, but I do criticise him if his government does wrong.

Astr Defence’s Modular Firearm was offered, but no interest by Army and was probably rejected, Army should have worked together with the company to make it fit for Army requirements and would have given large orders for this Rifle but it wasn’t. How are you supporting them then? I guess the company has been dissolved as it doesn’t have its own social media page or website because the company no more exists as they might have lost hope for their weapons.

what kind of support is being given to private firms then?
They make, they don’t get support, they collapse.
Its not USA where big companies peg their arms and a single rejection doesn’t make much of difference as there are civilian buyers not like India.

And why tf are we still using 7.62x39? We should be using 5.56 to replace INSAS as you can’t replace a 5.56 gun with 7.62, you are going for war not a CICT op.

Astr Defence’s gun could have done better with some support which wasn’t given.
That’s why I don’t have expectations. Indian Army has trialled the snipers of SSS Defence or not IDK, but its fukin year since these were made public.

LCH is ready but no order given to HAL, which is the most urgent requirement against China as it is the only helicopter in the world that can fight with full payload and fuel in Ladakh and siachen and none of chinese attack helis can operate with full capabilities at these heights and LCH is the need of the hour but it is ignored, and HAL had to start production with its own funds.

this is what vocal for local is? After giving all weapons to the Army already?
Tonbo Imaging’s first customers were foreign countries, MKU’s first customers were foreign countries not India as Indian Army and MoD never paid attention to them, only after they noticed that NATO countries are buying their equipment, only then Tonbo and MKU started receiving orders from the Army.

For the last time, this "Astr Defence" is a farce. How do you think some random new company, with no background in firearms manufacturing whatsoever, suddenly makes a 'modular' gun with interchangeable barrels. Even Sig took years to perfect the MCX. No way they (Astr) are credible.

 

[N4tsula67]

For that you need to promote private sector, I am a Modi supporter, but I do criticise him if his government does wrong.

Astr Defence’s Modular Firearm was offered, but no interest by Army and was probably rejected, Army should have worked together with the company to make it fit for Army requirements and would have given large orders for this Rifle but it wasn’t. How are you supporting them then? I guess the company has been dissolved as it doesn’t have its own social media page or website because the company no more exists as they might have lost hope for their weapons.

what kind of support is being given to private firms then?
They make, they don’t get support, they collapse.
Its not USA where big companies peg their arms and a single rejection doesn’t make much of difference as there are civilian buyers not like India.

And why tf are we still using 7.62x39? We should be using 5.56 to replace INSAS as you can’t replace a 5.56 gun with 7.62, you are going for war not a CICT op.

Astr Defence’s gun could have done better with some support which wasn’t given.
That’s why I don’t have expectations. Indian Army has trialled the snipers of SSS Defence or not IDK, but its fukin year since these were made public.

LCH is ready but no order given to HAL, which is the most urgent requirement against China as it is the only helicopter in the world that can fight with full payload and fuel in Ladakh and siachen and none of chinese attack helis can operate with full capabilities at these heights and LCH is the need of the hour but it is ignored, and HAL had to start production with its own funds.

this is what vocal for local is? After giving all weapons to the Army already?
Tonbo Imaging’s first customers were foreign countries, MKU’s first customers were foreign countries not India as Indian Army and MoD never paid attention to them, only after they noticed that NATO countries are buying their equipment, only then Tonbo and MKU started receiving orders from the Army.

There is whole thread dedicated on this SSS defense kand they aren't actually reliable thats why its taking so much time. I advise you to please check that thread about SSS defense. Ofc even i criticize modi and we should but saying whole atmanirbhar program is farce is not criticism but whining. Do you expect india to go fully indigenized in just 3-4yrs lol. Its not childs play it will take time bro. Look they have been on something and i have hope on them and i would say we should have faith on them.

 

[MIDKNIGHT FENERIR-00]

They don’t know the difference, but they will be getting votes for showing a modern looking rifle, cos they won’t be knowing that scaled down version is being provided, plus by same argument, P72 carbines of SSS Defence are released recently yet MoD cancelled CAR-816 deal for these kind of guns, I know AK-19 is released recently but the deal for AK-203 isn’t signed yet, so the production hasn’t begun in korwa. And Army now just has to test the AK-19 against AK-203 if it is better (genuinely) than AK-203, buy them instead. AK-203 is best for CICT Ops not wars.

AK-203 deal will be inked this month when Putin arrives, I just wish they opt for
AK-19 Anyhow.

Why does the Indian Government always do this crap with canceling or stopping a deal in the middle of the way with a foreign company and then suddenly start looking for domestic alternative made by a Indian Company instead but then cancels the entire deal before it could even start and after some years they restart this whole crap again starting with foreign companies. Most foreign defense companies stay out of the Indian defense market because these kind of practices. It take years for babus in MoD to pick a weapon claiming this and that as problems.

 

[Hfg..]

They don’t know the difference, but they will be getting votes for showing a modern looking rifle, cos they won’t be knowing that scaled down version is being provided, plus by same argument, P72 carbines of SSS Defence are released recently yet MoD cancelled CAR-816 deal for these kind of guns, I know AK-19 is released recently but the deal for AK-203 isn’t signed yet, so the production hasn’t begun in korwa. And Army now just has to test the AK-19 against AK-203 if it is better (genuinely) than AK-203, buy them instead. AK-203 is best for CICT Ops not wars.

AK-203 deal will be inked this month when Putin arrives, I just wish they opt for
AK-19 Anyhow.

We all know how the procurement of weapons and systems work..We cant put all the blame on Modi as if he personally ordered to scale down the version. Its mostly the babus who are involved in all this. Although i agree that these type of downgrades shld not happen and RM shld really look into these things. I was also very disappointed when I got to know that we are getting this downgraded version. But anyway, imo the scaled down version is still way better than that shitty Insas which IA was looking to replace for more than 15 yrs.
Also, i know that deal for AK 203 is still not signed but talks are going on for a long time and hopefully it will be signed this month. If we change the rifle at the last moment then all the negotiations will be started from scratch as the system is different from the previous one. So its not logical atm

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

SIG SAUER 716 + Zeiss Red Dot Sight
Romanian AK + FAB DEFENSE Modifications
Dragunov + TONBO EK Uncooled Smart Thermal Weapon Sight (STWS)
PSO-1 Scope
OFB Multi Grenade Launcher (MGL)

 

[Arihant Roy]

if not for China virus defence budget would have been close to 100 billion $ by 2025-26, now probably delayed by a couple of years.

I beg to differ. China has also been kind to us. Without the present standoff our strategic appeasement of China wouldn't have ended.
And the def budget of the next fiscal would have been reduced by a good two digit percent over the previous fiscal. Now we will see a healthy increase ,courtesy of China.

If the standoff stretches till summer which it certainly will, we may even see a off the shelf purchase of another tranche of 36-40 Rafales in the F4 configuration.

If PLAAF deploys J-20 in sizable nos at Hotan and Kashgar or in Shigatse , we may even go for a limited off the shelf purchase of Sukhoi Su-57 .

 

[shade]

Why does the Indian Government always do this crap with canceling or stopping a deal in the middle of the way with a foreign company and then suddenly start looking for domestic alternative made by a Indian Company instead but then cancels the entire deal before it could even start and after some years they restart this whole crap again starting with foreign companies. Most foreign defense companies stay out of the Indian defense market because these kind of practices. It take years for babus in MoD to pick a weapon claiming this and that as problems.

tug of war between make in india lobby and import lobby.
Import lobby usually wins in the end.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

tug of war between make in india lobby and import lobby.
Import lobby usually wins in the end.

This is what I was talking about earlier. Anyone who does such inefficient things, scuttles good domestic businesses should be publicly called out by name, their photos published, and banished from society. Being loose with principles must end. People must be told you cannot cross the Lakshman Rekha even by 1mm when it comes to national security. Even Army officers involved in frauds like canteen food black market selling or employing junior staff as domestic help or exhibiting any of the colonial attitudes must be court martialed as these crimes are not just low-level but really anti national as it deprives frontline soldiers of much needed ration, creates corrupt, defensive mindsets, affects morale and leads to lack of confidence in decision making - All very bad for taking on powerful enemies. I hope the Modi government is telling babus and officers in private that they will be punished and called out.

 

[Unknowncommando 2]

TDI Arms Quad Rail Handguard with mounted ZEISS Red Dot Sight

 

[FalconSlayers]

TDI Arms Quad Rail Handguard with mounted ZEISS Red Dot Sight
View attachment 64331

And useless crappy helmets. We don’t even have money for modernisation, Idk how we dream of defeating China.

 

[Narendra s rawat]

And useless crappy helmets. We don’t even have money for modernisation, Idk how we dream of defeating China.

Atleast we have ballastic vests.
The superpower Chinna is now thinking about that their soldiers need ballastic vests in 2020.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1I9_vNERPs2nAm1eoDkHqM

War is not win and lost on equipment.
In 1962 my grandfather and many from there village and neighbouring village joined the army to fight the war.
When they were ready to be deployed on battalfield they were called back,reason was told to them that we lost the war they were shocked.
Men were ready to fight with whatever equipment they have for their motherland in 1962 but babus and govt don't even have the balls.
When in my childhood I used to speak about how we get independence from non-violence he used to correct me by saying in WW2 what was 39th gharwal rifle was doing in France and why was soldiers from India were fighting the war of British if we got our independence by non-violence.
Equipment and gears are important but in war and battle they will be useless if you don't have the will to fight.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Atleast we have ballastic vests.
The superpower Chinna is now thinking about that their soldiers need ballastic vests in 2020.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1I9_vNERPs2nAm1eoDkHqM

War is not win and lost on equipment.
In 1962 my grandfather and many from there village and neighbouring village joined the army to fight the war.
When they were ready to be deployed on battalfield they were called back,reason was told to them that we lost the war they were shocked.
Men were ready to fight with whatever equipment they have for their motherland in 1962 but babus and govt don't even have the balls.
When in my childhood I used to speak about how we get independence from non-violence he used to correct me by saying in WW2 what was 39th gharwal rifle was doing in France and why was soldiers from India were fighting the war of British if we got our independence by non-violence.
Equipment and gears are important but in war and battle they will be useless if you don't have the will to fight.

Yes but if you get shot, you can’t fight with full capabilities or you’ll die, a ballistic helmet can stop a bullet or minimize its impact, the helmets they are weapring can’t even stop splinters of artillery fire and mortar fire.

 

[Narendra s rawat]

Yes but if you get shot, you can’t fight with full capabilities or you’ll die, a ballistic helmet can stop a bullet or minimize its impact, the helmets they are weapring can’t even stop splinters of artillery fire and mortar fire.

I never criticised your modernization part friend.
I criticised your china part.
Indian army has ordered about 158,000 (1.58 Lakh) ballistic helmets from Kanpur-based defence firm MKU in 2017.

Frontline troops with sig716 and mku ballastic helmet

 

[Killswitch]

The Americans are planning to phase out 556 for the larger 6.8 which is between the 556 and 762 rounds. Phasing out the INSAS is the right move. Phasing out 556 altogether for frontline troops is also the right move. The 556 simply isn't powerful enough to take on troops wearing body armor at distance. The Russians moved down from 762x39 to 545.45 in the 70's for their own reasons. Apparently, they are thinking of moving back up to a larger caliber for the same reasons the Americans are.

 

[FalconSlayers]

I never criticised your modernization part friend.
I criticised your china part.
Indian army has ordered about 158,000 (1.58 Lakh) ballistic helmets from Kanpur-based defence firm MKU in 2017.
View attachment 64346
Frontline troops with sig716 and mku ballastic helmet

These are the best helmets one can use, from ergonomics, to effectiveness etc. but there are 1.2 million soldiers and 2 million Paramilitary.

 

[FalconSlayers]

The Americans are planning to phase out 556 for the larger 6.8 which is between the 556 and 762 rounds. Phasing out the INSAS is the right move. Phasing out 556 altogether for frontline troops is also the right move. The 556 simply isn't powerful enough to take on troops wearing body armor at distance. The Russians moved down from 762x39 to 545.45 in the 70's for their own reasons. Apparently, they are thinking of moving back up to a larger caliber for the same reasons the Americans are.

5.45x39 is the most intelligent thing Russians did, it has better Armour piercing capabilities than both 556 and 762, higher muzzle velocity, low weight and better ballistics.