Modernisation for Indian 105mm Light Field Guns.

[sayareakd]

auto loader is required with MRSI capabilities.

 

[Decklander]

Continuing from the above post,

Imagine a section of troops pushing forward for an assault. They turn a corner and find themselves face to face with a HMG/LMG post 30-40 metres ahead. Mind you here this is a full blown conflict and you will more than likely have limited intelligence about the hostile positions. Also note that the section itself may be playing the role of recon/spotter for a larger force

Everybody will appreciate the flashbacks from the Kargil war movies, where it was shown fairly accurately that troops moved only a short distance before turning into a blind corner. In addition, fog and snow played havoc with visibility.

Now if the group knows that the artillery unit backing them up has munitions with 10m CEP, they will not hesitate to call in a fire mission. Job done, target neutralised after a few volleys and no casualties due to friendly fire.

Imagine the same situation with unguided shells. The spotter may very well call in a fire mission, but it will require much larger volleys of rounds, rounds with a much higher CEP. Every extra shell that needs to be fired increases the chance that they themselves will be hit, as well as give the hostiles more chance to survive.

This is one of the reason why the IA did not use fire missions for direct infantry support when the targets were too close to the friendlies. Such a situation presents a very difficult position. Firing could mean the loss due to friendly fire, while not firing will definitely result in deaths due to the relentless LMG/HMG fire.

The availability of precision shells will enable commanders to call in accurate support as close as 50 m from their positions, meaning that they can receive fire support even if they are pinned down near to the post.

Indirect Fire

What you qouted is about flat terrain. In hills the impact of round is on vertical and not horizontal. So you can reduce these ranges by half easily. In a direct fire the shell hits the target at its apogee and not during its travel downwards of the trajectory. I am constrained to draw the profile for you. I request @ersakthivel to do so for me. He is very good at such things. At the apogee of a round the range calculations errors are minimum and they increase as the range downward of trajectory increases.
You might be surprised to see my knowledge as a gunner here but in Navy, our bread and butter is Gunnery. This is the basics which we all learn and our knowledge is far superior to that of IA gunners in this field.

 

[binayak95]

@sayareakd, @Kunal Biswas sirs, which SPG is this? And why is it not inducted???

 

[sayareakd]

@<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=23" target="_blank">sayareakd</a>, @<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=4163" target="_blank">Kunal Biswas</a> sirs, which SPG is this? And why is it not inducted???

OFB 105 gun on modified BMP, by OFB.


not inducted due to many reason first is 105 is too short against the big guns, but it has fire and run capabilities, it they can reduce the length of BMP to move easily in mountain.

Hope they induct the same with modified bmp, something is better then nothing at all, plus with BMS and network centric operation and may be Weapon locating radar they can do something but not much. As long as they are on move it will give headache to enemy. Best thing about it is that it can do MRSI so few of them can do real damage on enemy.

this is what MRSI means

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Its OFB made 105mm SPG based on BMP Chassis, design for BSF, Not Army ..

@sayareakd, @Kunal Biswas sirs, which SPG is this? And why is it not inducted???

 

[SPIEZ]

105mm IFG are carried under-sling by MI-17, It can be also carried by Dhruv if needed..


Note from 3:20mins, Paratroopers also have Arty branch and others..

F***in Awesome!!!!


P.S. The instructor has the same name as one of our beloved members (@Apollyn)

 

[mikhail]

@DivineHeretic, Nicely put as always ..

Sir a stupid question,does the present operational status of the I.A. allows us to attach a few batteries of 105mm IFG/IFLG to each infantry battalion?i mean i know that there is a separate artillery unit attached to each division of the I.A. but if they attach a few batteries of IFG to each batallion separately then it will be a huge increase of firepower in the battalion level plus we have 1000s of IFG/IFLG in our disposal so it'll be an effective solution for any battalion level operation in case of a war and the range of the IFG/IFLG will allow us to target the enemy supply chain in the battlefield!what's your opinion about this?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

It will surely increase the firepower and lethality, But cannot comment much on this..

Its depends on situation..

Sir a stupid question,does the present operational status of the I.A. allows us to attach a few batteries of 105mm IFG/IFLG to each infantry battalion?i mean i know that there is a separate artillery unit attached to each division of the I.A. but if they attach a few batteries of IFG to each batallion separately then it will be a huge increase of firepower in the battalion level plus we have 1000s of IFG/IFLG in our disposal so it'll be an effective solution for any battalion level operation in case of a war and the range of the IFG/IFLG will allow us to target the enemy supply chain in the battlefield!what's your opinion about this?

 

[TrueSpirit]

@binayak95: If interested, have a look here:

Crusader Prototype Successfully Fires First Multi PLE Round Simultaneous Impact (MRSI) Mission. - Free Online Library

Crusader 155mm - Army Technology

 

[cloud]

On the plains I believe that, 155 mm heavy 8-10 tons OFB/DRDO guns will be much more useful, which can be made for 1-1.5 millions $. Similarly existing cheap 105 mm gun in masses with a simple upgrade such as fire control system will do the trick. But emphasis should be to get more Desi 155mm on trucks/tracked vehicle or even towed.

For mountains and not so easily accessible areas(which needs air transportation for fast mobilization) -

105 MM LFG E2 weights around 3 tons. 155 mm M777 weights around 4.5 tons.
M777's cost will go upto 4.5 Millions, in that much money we can easily get around 20-25 LFGs.
Range M77 24 KM, LFGs 18 KM for normal rounds(now if we can develop our own Base bleed rounds, or rocket assisted ones, then it would be a good story).

After the above being said, I would still prefer the those 145 M777(in negotiation) for Chinese border or may be a follow on order for similar numbers(these will be address the mobility and higher power/range issue on demand, can be airdropped, can give cover in areas where only LFGs can be carried, Also the extended range ammunition should be a must buy with this purchase for time being), These should be combined with High numbers of our own existing155/105mm howitzers where ever we can carry ours. As it is already explained in the thread for attacking position behind the hills we need to launch the projectile in more upright(vertical position) so that it lands more vertically, this reduces the effective range considerably. hence those M777 can address this issue or provide advantage for specific situations/areas in war times, Only If we get the sufficient numbers of extended range shells.

Now coming to Modernization of LFGs, I wouldn't want to make any costly or heavy change to existing ones. They are just too cheap, may be they can add the FCS.

One possibility is to develop a version- which can be made much lighter somehow(only for specific use, other wise existing one with addition of FCS will do), no heavy gadget etc, just plain simple old guns with the use of titanium etc, so that the weigh is close to 1.75 tons, then this system may become more useful in mountains areas where it would be possible to be carried by donkeys or cold weather animals etc easily or would be able to helo lift even at very high altitude areas via MI-17 and can be pushed around by soldiers easily. (Also I want a tracked cart puller, in simple term, a 1.25 ton tracked vehicle with just the engine and chassis and flat top, open, size 3/4th of an SUV or smaller and height half of that, these can be easily para dropped along with such guns and will have multiple uses in mountainous terrain or even in plain deserts to quickly move the heavy items including 105 mm guns, if needed these vehicle can be permanently bolted to such LFGs).

2nd is the obvious choice to develop a Base bleed round to give the extra range for any platform, until we have such techs, we could also focus on something like 40 KM range rocket(Similar to Soviet BM-21 Grad). These rockets weight around 70Kg each, So may be, if we were to develop a very light weight 4 barrel launcher for inaccessible areas(also many launcher will be needed for one position), this could also work. but will be costly and limited affair, but rockets can be air transported/dropped if the troops have the mechanism(launcher) to fire them.

 

[asianobserve]

A good addition to LFG's capabilities (or any other artillery) is UAV, especially for India that is expected to fight in rugged mountainous terrain.

 

[asianobserve]

 

[Ankit Purohit]

F***in Awesome!!!!


P.S. The instructor has the same name as one of our beloved members (@Apollyn)

captain dipankar barua

 

[W.G.Ewald]

A good addition to LFG's capabilities (or any other artillery) is UAV, especially for India that is expected to fight in rugged mountainous terrain.

 

[ersakthivel]

It will surely increase the firepower and lethality, But cannot comment much on this..

Its depends on situation..

India develops propellants for Bofors | idrw.org


Can we use the new propellant mentioned in the article above for 105 mm guns?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

May be, Its possible ..

Charges used for 105mm IFG are different from 155mm FH-77..

India develops propellants for Bofors | idrw.org


Can we use the new propellant mentioned in the article above for 105 mm guns?

 

[Decklander]

May be, Its possible ..

Charges used for 105mm IFG are different from 155mm FH-77..

IFG used two diff charges which gave it a velocity of 590m/s and 710m/s. The new barrells and new charge can increase it further which will help it to either increase the range or allow it to be used as an howitzer with present range. A lot is happening. If you guys will recall my posts regarding the ICL-20 produced by Pune DRDO, I had stated that soon we will have far better ranges for our guns and far more destructive power for our shells. ICL-20 is now being converted into a propellent also which needs stronger breech blocks with higher chamber pressures for which we need better metalurgy to withstand those pressures.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sir, what are saying means a new design and cannot be implemented on older once as the recoil will also increase and there will be need for new recoil system..

IFG used two diff charges which gave it a velocity of 590m/s and 710m/s. The new barrells and new charge can increase it further which will help it to either increase the range or allow it to be used as an howitzer with present range. A lot is happening. If you guys will recall my posts regarding the ICL-20 produced by Pune DRDO, I had stated that soon we will have far better ranges for our guns and far more destructive power for our shells. ICL-20 is now being converted into a propellent also which needs stronger breech blocks with higher chamber pressures for which we need better metalurgy to withstand those pressures.

 

[Decklander]

Sir, what are saying means a new design and cannot be implemented on older once as the recoil will also increase and there will be need for new recoil system..

I agree with you. But since we will need to replace these guns over a period of time so why not start the process right now.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I wish for same, hope for a longer 45cal Gun for 105mm..

But again, Army should put a requirement which is highly unlikely ..

I agree with you. But since we will need to replace these guns over a period of time so why not start the process right now.