LCA TEJAS MK1 & MK1A: News and Discussion

[Vikas Lohia]

To get answer of this question, you must ask the Chair Marshalls of Imported Air Force Whether Tejas got even 10% of the support JF-17 got from PAF ?
It's because of late Manohar Parrikar and determination of LCA Team, we are seeing induction of Tejas in IAF.


If Chair Marshalls of Imported Air Force are so worried about official sanctioned squadron strength and lives of our braveheart pilots, why didn't they ordered 360 MK1A (20 squadrons) instead of 83 ? Why they are so eager to import and scuttle Tejas program ? Why they are again planning for MMRCA 2.0 ?

Am I correct to say that Tejas FOC is far better than Mig 21 on any parameter ? If yes, then Why the Chair Marshalls of Imported Air Force didn't go for 144 (8 squadrons) Tejas FOC ?
Your Chair Marshalls have made a zoo of aircrafts. I am not aware of any other prominent airforce having such diversity in active fighter jet category. Just imagine the logistical nightmare of maintaining required spares.

Sir, your answers are not helpful.

 

[Love Charger]

Sir, your answers are not helpful.

Very unique reply ,

 

[Kharavela]

Because Tejas is designed as a light fighter. Ordering 20 squadrons of Tejas Mk1/1A will be making it the backbone of our airforce. A healthy air force should have a mix of light, medium and heavy fighters.

Till few years ago, MiG-21 was BACKBONE of Imported Air Force. Therefore, what's your logic against Tejas ?

Please enlighten Desi FanBoys like me with some example of prominent Air Forces (P-5 / G-20 nations) having 3 types of fighters based on :
1) Light 2) Medium & 3) Heavy definition of IAF.

As far as I know, combat aircraft compositions of prominent Air Forces are as following:
United States Air Force
Heavy: Earlier F-15 variants and now F-22A Raptor
Light: Earlier F-16 variants and now F-35A Lightning
Russian Air Force
Heavy: Su-27 variants
Light: MiG-29 variants
Chinese Air Force
Heavy: Su-27 variants, Shenyang J-11 & J-16 (Chinese variants of Su-27), Chengdu J-20
Light: Chengdu J-7, J-8 & J-10
British Air Force
Heavy: Eurofighter Typhoon
Light: F-35B Lightning
French Air Force
Medium-1: Rafale variants
Medium-2: Mirage variants

Now, bestow your valuable knowledge on ignorant Desi FanBoys.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Better than any single-engine 4th gen jet? You sure?

See, this blind fanboyism is the reason logical argument is pointless here.

it would be a long discussion

 

[Kharavela]

On any parameter? No, not really. There are multiple things Tejas (still) falls short of Mig-21, some are critical. Tejas FOC as of last year (when Derby was integrated) was falling short of A2A capabilities (no BVR). Astra is yet to be integrated. It did not have an autocannon, (You should see how HAL mad lads cut the paneling under Tejas to accommodate the gun in such a crude manner as if it is a Lorry), as well.

Really ???
Please share your knowledge: Which BVR is used / fired by MiG 21.

Armaments of MiG-21 are:
Guns: 1 × internal 23 mm Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23L autocannon with 200 rounds
Hardpoints: 5 (4 under-wing + 1 ventral, reserved for fuel drop tanks) , with provisions to carry combinations of:
Rockets: 4 × S-24 or 4× UB-16-57 rocket pods (4× 16 57 mm rockets)
Missiles: Air-to-air missiles: K-13, R-55, R-60
Bombs: 2 × 500 kg (1,100 lb) and 2 × 250 kg bombs

Can anyone help me to find a BVR listed there for MiG-21 ?

The following is quoted from Wiki about safety record of your beloved MiG-21

Since 1963, India has introduced more than 1,200 MiG fighters into its air force. As of 2019, 113 MiG-21s are known to be in operation in the IAF.[10] However, the plane has been plagued by safety problems. Since 1970 more than 170 Indian pilots and 40 civilians have been killed in MiG-21 accidents. At least 14 MiG-21s have crashed between 2010 and 2013.[11] Over half of the 840 aircraft built between 1966 and 1984 were lost to crashes.

Had your Chair Marshalls of Imported Air Force have ordered Tejas IOC / FOC in numbers, many of those 170 brave-heart Pilots & 40 civilians might with us today.

 

[Kharavela]

Tejas as a platform is still a work in progress. A lot of its systems are continuously being tested and improved. That includes its FBW, weapon system(s), avionics, radar and self-protection system.

May I pray your Lordship that even F-35 is still a work in progress, despite Lockheed Martin having decades of experience in building combat aircrafts.

 

[Kharavela]

The principle Support, where PAF brought J17 almost zero subsystems. No FBW, No BVR/WVR missile, no EWS, I doubt even without Radar. Though UNAF also do the same but ONLY for import weapons.

Import FanBoys logic:
When Su-30, Mirage were inducted in IAF, they were loaded with AESA Radar, FBW, EWS, BVR capability and even STEALTH.

Desi FanBoys reaction:

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

Really ???
Please share your knowledge: Which BVR is used / fired by MiG 21.

Armaments of MiG-21 are:
Guns: 1 × internal 23 mm Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23L autocannon with 200 rounds
Hardpoints: 5 (4 under-wing + 1 ventral, reserved for fuel drop tanks) , with provisions to carry combinations of:
Rockets: 4 × S-24 or 4× UB-16-57 rocket pods (4× 16 57 mm rockets)
Missiles: Air-to-air missiles: K-13, R-55, R-60
Bombs: 2 × 500 kg (1,100 lb) and 2 × 250 kg bombs

Can anyone help me to find a BVR listed there for MiG-21 ?

The following is quoted from Wiki about safety record of your beloved MiG-21


Had your Chair Marshalls of Imported Air Force have ordered Tejas IOC / FOC in numbers, many of those 170 brave-heart Pilots & 40 civilians might with us today.

mig 21 is not superior to tejas on any parameter whatsoever

 

[Kharavela]

See, You Import fanboys often don't understand how UN armed forces place impossible GSQR and Never involve in project ab initio and take decades of trials. which effectively make upcoming product nonviable. Don't forget Rafale yet to be upgraded.

Haven't you heard Commodore Jaideep Maolankar explaining the term UNOBTAINIUM with reference to GSQR of IAF in Hamara Tejas episode ?

 

[Kharavela]

Do you want our Air force which is facing a 2-front war threat any time to acquire toothless, underperforming platforms in large numbers ? Tejas as a platform was simply not ready to be inducted a year back.

Tejas as a platform was simply not ready to be inducted...
BUT............
BUT............
BUT............
HOLD YOUR BREATH........
MiG-21 Bison is capable enough to be continued in active service

 

[Kharavela]

Ah, pray tell which modern air force in the world operate >50% of its fleet of light fighters ? The backbone is always medium or heavy fighters.

Combat Aircraft	Manufacturer	Role	In Service
F-15C/D Eagle	McDonnell Douglas	Air superiority	234

F-15E Strike Eagle

McDonnell Douglas/Boeing

Multirole, primarily strike

218

F-15EX Eagle II

McDonnell Douglas/Boeing

Multirole, primarily strike

8

F-16C/D Fighting Falcon

General Dynamics

Multirole

934

F-15 Variants: 234 + 218 + 8 - 460
F-16 Variants = 934

F-22A Raptor

Lockheed Martin

Air superiority

186

F-35A Lightning II

Lockheed Martin

Multirole

283

Self Explaining Numbers.

Source: US Air Force - Fighter Jets

 

[Kharavela]

The small numbers are meant to be tested and problems rectified, like how late Grp. Captain Varun Singh saved the crashing Tejas because its FBW was faulty.

As @MonaLazy has already posted the citation, have a look at the highlighted sentence.

 

[Kharavela]

F-35 was heavily criticized to be not ready, the airforce version (F-35A) has gun, and F-35A was only inducted in USAF in 2016. Blunders and shortcomings of F-35 is a different topic.

Forget F-35, when Su-30 or Mirage-2K were inducted in IAF, what was their capability ? Please read in detail history of Imported Air Force & then reply.

 

[Kharavela]

Better than any single-engine 4th gen jet? You sure?

@Chandragupt Maurya Bhai mera bhavnao me beh gaya tha to bol diya.

But you please name one combat aircraft in the whole world which didn't have a single crash in 30 odd years ?Which combat jet can match safety records of Tejas ?

 

[Kharavela]

It is true IAF wake up only after MRCA-1 dream fell flat around 2014.

No, those Chair Marshalls in IAF has not woken up till now. They are still dreaming for MRCA-2.0
They will spend Rs 3000 crores for Darin-3 upgrade, but won't use that for indigenous programs.
See reaction of @hvtiaf:

 

[mist_consecutive]

@Kharavela you have written quite a lot, seems like you took it way too personally.

I will reply to all your arguments tomorrow.

 

[Kharavela]

@Kharavela you have written quite a lot, seems like you took it way too personally.

I will reply to all your arguments tomorrow.

Nope, nothing personal. Only National.

You talk against Tejas, I will be there to counter you with FACTS.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Nope, nothing personal. Only National.

You talk against Tejas, I will be there to counter you with FACTS.

How ironic situation for me. Just 2 pages back I was arguing with everyone how Tejas FOC is much better than Mig-21 Bison.

I just wanted to say, 2 years back Tejas wasn’t matured enough to be ordered in large numbers, today it is. But it is still not a good idea to order Tejas Mk1/Mk1A in huge (100+) numbers.

I am all for ordering 200+ Tejas Mk2/TEBDF because they will be true 4-4.5 gen. medium-weight jets.

 

[Kharavela]

Though the COI has concluded that Gen Rawat's heli-crash was a pilot-error (Controlled Descent into Terrain), I just can't help shake the suspicion - is it a coincidence that he should perish a few weeks after such an important decision was made, which would have pissed off import lobbies in India & arms majors worldwide? Gen Rawat, being the man with the know-how of the insider workings/rot in MoD, Services, media etc, would have likely been a key influencer in this decision - perhaps even the prime mover.

One of my friend is working with a national news agency. He told me that:
Just after CDS Rawat's death was confirmed, his news agency planned a debate on the same lines you are raising. As they asked MoD for official response, they got unofficial request not to pursue that suspicion angle.

So, I am convinced of import lobby role in murder of CDS Rawat.

 

[Kharavela]

How ironic situation for me. Just 2 pages back I was arguing with everyone how Tejas FOC is much better than Mig-21 Bison.

Don't take my comments personally, PLEASE.

I just wanted to say, 2 years back Tejas wasn’t matured enough to be ordered in large numbers, today it is. But it is still not a good idea to order Tejas Mk1/Mk1A in huge (100+) numbers.

I am all for ordering 200+ Tejas Mk2/TEBDF because they will be true 4-4.5 gen. medium-weight jets.

Whether Tejas was matured enough or not, my POV is, it was still better than flying coffin MiG-21. Had IAF ordered in numbers (100+), depleting squadron and pilot deaths could have been avoided.

Moreover, HAL would not have any alibi for low production capacity. They (HAL) would have been forced to make arrangements for production of 24+ Tejas per annum.