Kaveri Engine

Yumdoot

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Kaveri has a lower BPR compared to F-404IN. The best I have read for Kaveri is 0.2-0.24. Normally I read a BPR of 0.16 for kaveri. For F-404 its around 0.36.

F-22 engine ie. the F-119 is not a variable cycle engine. In fact that is one of the main reasons the F-22 got selected instead of YF-23 which had the YF-120 engine by GE and that was a Variable cycle turbofan. Variable cycle engines begin to grow more complex and costly too that is why some of the earliest variable cycle engines were used on exotic mission airplanes like Valkyrie and SR-71. But complexity is often not liked by air forces.

P&W F-119 is the base for the F-135 for JSF F-35 and in future the F-119 is hoped to be turned into a Variable cycle or Adaptive cycle engine (I think multiflow type).

All serious fighter engines today have at least .36 bypass ratio and more modern ones have around 0.59 (AL-31), around 0.57 (F-135). https://engineering.purdue.edu/~propulsi/propulsion/jets/tfans.html

The bypass ratio is important for all types of engines. Only that the exact ratio required is different each time depending upon how far it is operating from its main operating requirements. For example the AL-31/41 series of engines are designed to primarily push the Sukhoi-27/30 family upto Mach 2+. That would be their natural sweet spot. But below those speeds they would be flying for 90% of the times (like all other fighters) esp. while in loaded take off or post stall maneuvering the Sukhoi will require a lot of raw power and that is when the bypass will be very helpful. In future you are going to see higher BPR military engines because that is the maximum time the engines get used and air forces want to cut costs too. And these higher BPRs will be by augmented multiflow variable cycles only.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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OK with that. I'm sure it's already in the final draft.

Apparently you are OK

But dasault / France is not OK so they are putting new conditions like

First rafale contract then we will discuss offsets so later they can renege on this lolipop
 

ersakthivel

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Found out that Kaveri does have a higher BPR.....
http://www.dutchops.com/AC_Data/Engines/F404.html
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/index.jsp?pg=kaveri.jsp
Now your post on difference between passenger jet and fighter jet engine is quite informative and I myself had gone through some similar articles previously. Now I believe BPR don't have such a huge effect in Fighters as the engines are made to deliver RAW power instead of being fuel economic. But still for power you have to take into account the BPR of engines which you would be using.


Now ofcourse its a cool stuff for us irrespective of who are using it. Now as you have already pointed out, we do seriously lack behind in metallurgy section and I've no qualm in any sort of JV if we could get value added information/ knowledge through it. In fact I don't have any qualm on any sort of JV which does have always a bright side unlike license production.
I dont understand your maths,

Bypass ratio for GE 404 as per your link is 0.27,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri
Kaveri's bypass ratio is 0.16.

SO which is lower GE 404 or kaveri?
 

no smoking

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Unfortunately Russian engine tech is even below kaveri jet engine standards, I may be flayed for saying this, but it is the truth,
That is exactly the problem. So far, there is not a single jet is flying powered by kaveri engine yet. In other words, the Kaveri engine standards is only the designing target, not its actually performance parameters.

So, until today, Russian engine tech is still far beyond the standards that ARCHIEVABLE in short period for Chinese or Indian.

They dont have any low bypass variable cycle engine tech on offer, being fixated on plain after burner thrust of AL series engines won educate you on that count, See a few of my previous posts to know what it means to have a low bypass, variable cycle engine tech for 5th gen fighters
I doubt there is anyone can offer this tech now.
Even Americans are still working on it.
http://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/adaptive-cycle/

PS: this variable cycle engine is for 6th gen fighter not 5th.
 

Yumdoot

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PS: this variable cycle engine is for 6th gen fighter not 5th.
What the @#$. VCE has been around since ages. What they will do in future is to be able to leverage the advances in materials to make VCE jump a few too many notches up.
 

no smoking

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What the @#$. VCE has been around since ages. What they will do in future is to be able to leverage the advances in materials to make VCE jump a few too many notches up.
The theory has been there for years, the lab model has been there for years maybe.
But developing a engine powerful enough to power a sixth generation jet within acceptable cost is another story.
 

ersakthivel

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That is exactly the problem. So far, there is not a single jet is flying powered by kaveri engine yet. In other words, the Kaveri engine standards is only the designing target, not its actually performance parameters.

So, until today, Russian engine tech is still far beyond the standards that ARCHIEVABLE in short period for Chinese or Indian.



I doubt there is anyone can offer this tech now.
Even Americans are still working on it.
http://www.geaviation.com/military/engines/adaptive-cycle/

PS: this variable cycle engine is for 6th gen fighter not 5th.
GTRE kaveri is a functioning Low bypass variable cycle engine, generating its designed 52 Kn dry thrust and validating its variable cycle design principles already,

SO GTRE doesn't need varibale cycle tech on kaveri. What it needs is BLISK, & other common engine finishing tech.
 

aerokan

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PaliwalWarrior

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I am lost like many others now.. I even clicked the math link you posted to see if my mind is playing games.. I still don't get how 0.27 would be less than 0.16. How? How? How? [emoji46] [emoji46] [emoji46]

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Boss he is right

.27 is less than .16

.27 is twentyseventh part
And
.16 us sixteenth part

Eg

Divide 1 by 27 and then divide 1 by 16

Compare the answers you will understand
 

HariPrasad-1

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GTRE kaveri is a functioning Low bypass variable cycle engine, generating its designed 52 Kn dry thrust and validating its variable cycle design principles already,

SO GTRE doesn't need varibale cycle tech on kaveri. What it needs is BLISK, & other common engine finishing tech.
Mishra dhatu nigam has developed one alloy which can sustain 100* more temperature than the alloy used in Kaveri. When who can make blade out of this material, it should give you a better flexibility to operate at high T/W ratio and hence a better power. We must continuously keep developing this engine.
 

AnantS

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.16 = 16/100
.27 = 27/100
.16 < .27

Because you would rather have .50 Rupees than .25 Rupees.

1/16 is not equal to .16. 1/16=0.0625.
@ersakthivel is correct
 

aerokan

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Boss he is right

.27 is less than .16

.27 is twentyseventh part
And
.16 us sixteenth part

Eg

Divide 1 by 27 and then divide 1 by 16

Compare the answers you will understand
Dude... Seriously???

Didn't know that there are so many in a single thread who couldn't count.

.27 is not 1/27.. It is 27/100

We are not talking negative numbers here.

Even by your parts logic, how is 27 parts less than 16 parts.

When in doubt, detach the sign, divide first number by second and attach back the sign. Do it the other way as well. You will know which one is bigger without straining much of our brains..

On a lighter note, now I know the reason why Chinese propaganda posters are having a field day [emoji12] [emoji12]

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AnantS

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Mishra dhatu nigam has developed one alloy which can sustain 100* more temperature than the alloy used in Kaveri. When who can make blade out of this material, it should give you a better flexibility to operate at high T/W ratio and hence a better power. We must continuously keep developing this engine.
Do we also have required Precision Multi axis CNC Machine to design blisks?
 

AnantS

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That i do not know but I have read that they have developed a technology in which Crystal blades can be made very fast in a very short time.
Hari, I only read that they were able to grow SCB Gen 2 blades in lab. But I am not aware of they being able to develop technique for productionizing the same. Kindly share the doc link where you read that information?
 

HariPrasad-1

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Hari, I only read that they were able to grow SCB Gen 2 blades in lab. But I am not aware of they being able to develop technique for productionizing the same. Kindly share the doc link where you read that information?
I will share it if I come across. It is a bit old news and finding reference may be difficult. New alloy has somewhere around 1600* temperature sustainability against little less than 1500* of kaveri blade. This may make a big difference.
 

ersakthivel

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I am lost like many others now.. I even clicked the math link you posted to see if my mind is playing games.. I still don't get how 0.27 would be less than 0.16. How? How? How? [emoji46] [emoji46] [emoji46]

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Some people here are aerospace engineers from Alien Andromeda galaxy,

naturally they have digital numeral systems upside down in their black matter infested world!!!

No point arguing!!!
 

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